Why the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 does not simply mean "a long time."

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 37:

The "1,000 years" began at the Cross, Savior's Resurrection, and Enthronement, Rev.12:5-9; 20:1-6 and ends at Rev.20:7.

Actually, there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order (see post 36).

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

shturt678s said in post 37:

The "1,000 years" began at the Cross, Savior's Resurrection, and Enthronement, Rev.12:5-9; 20:1-6 and ends at Rev.20:7.

Regarding Revelation 12:5-9, in verse 5 the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up bodily to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

shturt678s said in post 37:

The "42 months" began at 70 A.D. (Lk.21:24) and ends at the Parousia.

Regarding the 42 months, 1,260 days, and "a time, and times, and half a time", they are all the same time period in the prophecies of Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Daniel 7:25, and Daniel 12:7. They will be 1,260 literal days, just as, for example, the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Luke 9:22 and Luke 18:33 were literal days, and the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Genesis 40:13 and Genesis 40:19 were literal days, and the 70 years in the fulfilled prophecy of Jeremiah 25:11-12 (Daniel 9:2) were literal years (Zechariah 7:5).

The literal 1,260-day time period will be the time of the Antichrist's Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters were never fulfilled during a past time period of 1,260 years, as historicism mistakenly claims. But these details must be fulfilled (Revelation 1:1). So they will be fulfilled in our future, after the also-never-fulfilled details of Revelation chapters 6 to 10 are fulfilled in our future.

shturt678s said in post 37:

The "42 months" began at 70 A.D. (Lk.21:24) and ends at the Parousia.

Regarding Luke 21:24, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos, G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 can refer to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos, G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

 

[ebedmelech]

Actually, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Actually that's wrong Bible2. You start at Revelation 6 where the seals are being broken. Who's breaking the seals? It's Jesus.

You get to revelation 12, and it rehearsing the history of Israel. You get to verse 5 and Jesus is born and caught up to heaven.

So it's not chronological or Jesus wouldn't be breaking seals in chapter 6.

Also notice in chapter 11 you see Jesus coming into His kingdom in heaven at verse 15. So much for chronology.

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

No. The seventh trumpet sounds and Jesus is Lord. Do you not notice the temple of God in heaven is open? Jesus opened that temple when He ascended. So once again...nope!

Actually, Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Actually that's true but not in the sense you think. The bible sets the tempo for it's literature. Within that literature, if you allow the bible to say what it means you get literal symbols. As Daniel and Revelation calls empires "beasts" and describe them as such. It calls Israel a woman in chapter 12. It calls Christ a "lamb in Revelation 6, It calls Him the Lion of the tribe of Judah in Chapter 5...there's more, but that make my point. So much for your "literal" assertion.

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

That too is incorrect. The symbolism is there too...Gog and Magog are the unbelieving world in Rev 19, and they surround the camp of the saints...now how does that happen literally? You have all kinds of problems when you don't understand this is the church engaged in spiritual warfare until Jesus comes. Even today most Christians are surrounded by unbelievers at work, where they live, when they go out to eat... is any of this getting through?

 

[branchofthevine]

OP, you said that your understanding of the thousand years is literal based on a literary interpretation, and not a dispensationalist one. It is an interesting one, but I want to just add some thoughts on this literary method. Mostly, it is things to think about, and not to debate because that would take a super long time and would extend beyond the boundaries of this thread.

Firstly, the article. Within the prophetic narrative which starts at Revelation and continues until the end of the book. Specifically within Chapter 20 the word "thousand" which is χιλια in Greek appears 6 times (verses:2,3,4,5,6,7). 4 times the article is used with the word χιλια (v3/v4/v5/v7 τα χιλι&#945 and twice it is used without the article (v2, v6.). You should examine why verses 2 and 6 do not use the article with the word χιλια.

Moreover, the actual use of the article needs to be understood. When the word χιλια is first used it is without an article, and the next three subsequent uses of the word χιλια have the article. This means the first time χιλια is used, it is anarthrous meaning the article is not used. The next three occurrences are comparing the χιλια to the first mention.
It is like saying: what thousand year period? That thousand year period (v2). This means that the same period satan is locked up for is the same period Christ is reigning. This usage of the article is the anaphoric usage, which is referring back to something already known.

verse 6 uses the same grammar as verse2 "χιλια ετη" meaning "for a thousand years" verse 2 is satan being bound "for a thousand years", and verse 6 the participants of the first resurrection reign "for a thousand years" with Christ while the rest of the dead don't get resurrected until after this period.

The next thing to understand is the meaning of the article in relationship to the noun. There are 9 general meanings of the article with 2 special rules. However, none of them are used to separate the figurative from the literal. Meaning that just because there is an article does not mean the noun it is attached to is literal. It can be figurative.

This means that the thousand years cannot be understood as literal just by looking at the article.

But moving on. The Thousand years is not the subject of the passages. In other words, the thousand years is not acting upon anyone, but receiving the action. It is the accusative case. This means that the thousand years cannot be understood without understanding the subjects acting upon it, namely the binding of satan and the reign of Christ. Understanding the events prior too, and afterwards will determine if the "thousand years" is understood as literal or not. (footnote of sorts: It is wise to examine how the term "thousand" is applied to a period of time in terms of it being figurative or literal, so a thousand days, a thousand generations, etc. It will either show a pattern of literal or figurative uses, or no pattern at all and context determines everything).

The hard part is the presuppositions which people bring to the text in order to interpret it. How one understands the binding of satan, the reign of Christ, the two resurrections, the battle of Gog and Magog will shape how the thousand years are interpreted by the reader. It is to these issues that you must turn your attention to to gain a grasp of what is being said here.

My point is, from a literary perspective the data is inconclusive. The thousand years can be understood as literal or figurative from a strict literary understanding.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 45:

Also notice in chapter 11 you see Jesus coming into His kingdom in heaven at verse 15.

Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't (as is sometimes claimed) occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

 

[Old Timer]

This is a great thread.

I've always considered Revelation 20 to be speaking literally with respect to the thousand years, and that it pertains to the future; the things which shall be hereafter. One of the reasons I have thought this is simply because Rev 20 appears to be tied to Rev 19 which is the coming of Christ and the destruction of the beast and false prophet.

.02

 

[Biblewriter]

OP, you said that your understanding of the thousand years is literal based on a literary interpretation, and not a dispensationalist one. It is an interesting one, but I want to just add some thoughts on this literary method. Mostly, it is things to think about, and not to debate because that would take a super long time and would extend beyond the boundaries of this thread.

Firstly, the article. Within the prophetic narrative which starts at Revelation and continues until the end of the book. Specifically within Chapter 20 the word "thousand" which is χιλια in Greek appears 6 times (verses:2,3,4,5,6,7). 4 times the article is used with the word χιλια (v3/v4/v5/v7 τα χιλι&#945 and twice it is used without the article (v2, v6.). You should examine why verses 2 and 6 do not use the article with the word χιλια.

Moreover, the actual use of the article needs to be understood. When the word χιλια is first used it is without an article, and the next three subsequent uses of the word χιλια have the article. This means the first time χιλια is used, it is anarthrous meaning the article is not used. The next three occurrences are comparing the χιλια to the first mention.
It is like saying: what thousand year period? That thousand year period (v2). This means that the same period satan is locked up for is the same period Christ is reigning. This usage of the article is the anaphoric usage, which is referring back to something already known.

verse 6 uses the same grammar as verse2 "χιλια ετη" meaning "for a thousand years" verse 2 is satan being bound "for a thousand years", and verse 6 the participants of the first resurrection reign "for a thousand years" with Christ while the rest of the dead don't get resurrected until after this period.

The next thing to understand is the meaning of the article in relationship to the noun. There are 9 general meanings of the article with 2 special rules. However, none of them are used to separate the figurative from the literal. Meaning that just because there is an article does not mean the noun it is attached to is literal. It can be figurative.

This means that the thousand years cannot be understood as literal just by looking at the article.

But moving on. The Thousand years is not the subject of the passages. In other words, the thousand years is not acting upon anyone, but receiving the action. It is the accusative case. This means that the thousand years cannot be understood without understanding the subjects acting upon it, namely the binding of satan and the reign of Christ. Understanding the events prior too, and afterwards will determine if the "thousand years" is understood as literal or not. (footnote of sorts: It is wise to examine how the term "thousand" is applied to a period of time in terms of it being figurative or literal, so a thousand days, a thousand generations, etc. It will either show a pattern of literal or figurative uses, or no pattern at all and context determines everything).

The hard part is the presuppositions which people bring to the text in order to interpret it. How one understands the binding of satan, the reign of Christ, the two resurrections, the battle of Gog and Magog will shape how the thousand years are interpreted by the reader. It is to these issues that you must turn your attention to to gain a grasp of what is being said here.

My point is, from a literary perspective the data is inconclusive. The thousand years can be understood as literal or figurative from a strict literary understanding.

You have wholly missed the argument presented in the OP. The argument was not that in Greek, the presence of the article means it is literal. It was that not a single typical use of such a statement in the entire rest of the Bible included an article. But here, the article is used three times, (not two, as you incorrectly stated.)

You are correct that each use of the article here refers to the previously mentioned period. But you incorrectly dismiss the fact that the use of the article in all three of the cases where we read "the thousand years" in Revelation 20 makes the words "thousand years" refer to a particular thousand year period, not just some general long period of time.

The first case was in verse 3, where it refers to the particular thousand year period in which Satan will be bound. (And is it utter folly to argue that he is bound at the present time. He was bound "that he should deceive the nations no more," and it is perfectly obvious that he is deceiving the nations at the present time.)

The second case was in verse 5, where it refers to the particular thousand year period in which the saints shall reign with Christ. (And is is sheer nonsense to argue that the saints are reigning while they were being persecuted through most of the last two thousand years, and are being persecuted through out most of the world, even today.)

And the third case in verse 7, where it again refers to the particular thousand year period in which Satan will be bound.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

You are confused. The Greek is ἐν τάχος means with quickness, speed.
When these things begin, they will seem like "lightning fast" events, one upon another, to those on earth; for the beginning of them will have no stopping of them until all is fulfilled.
Woe to those on earth when they begin, for they are doomed to the end of them, to endure them, and then He comes!


when He comes, He will come ταχύ -quickly, speedily (without delay) -like lightning!

The Greek of Revelation 1 and 22 is ἐν τάχος and means with quickness, speed.

That is not twisting the Scriptures. Anyone can go check them out, and the idea that the LORD said that the things were coming "soon" as to" right then", are twisting the Greek words into a pretzel of their own doctrinal confusion, and deny applications and context.
The things have not come, and when they begin they will strike like lightning, with no remedy for those "left behind".

 

[random person]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OihtHVoig8s

 

[ebedmelech]

Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't (as is sometimes claimed) occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Nope! Revelation 11:15-17 says:
15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

Now that's what Revelation 11:15-17 is saying, that Jesus has triumphed by the cross!!! In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Unless you want to call Jesus wrong "all power" means "all power"...and Jesus said that power was in heaven and on earth.

So there's no need to get the rest of your post, until you get that right. Jesus has been reigning since He was resurrected...PERIOD!!!

If you need more passages to tell you that...let me know.

 

[mark kennedy]

...The details I gave about the definite article in Greek are also true of definite articles in Hebrew. In every Old Testament reference to "a thousand years," "a thousand generations," of any similar symbolic expression, the definite article is missing. It is never used, even once, in any such expression. In this sense, the statements in Revelation 20 are absolutely unique in all of scripture.

Wow Biblewriter, it's almost like you are saying a thousand years means a thousand years. I'm shocked. I should warn you this could get you branded a Bible literalist.

But seriously, the definite article denotes specificity, not a thousand years but The Thousand Years. There is just nothing in the text to suggest anything else and the definite article makes the statement definitive, if you'll pardon the pun.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Old Timer]

Hebrews speaks of the fact that we see not yet all things put under Christ, and that he is waiting til his enemies be made his footstool. Hebrews also speaks of the world to come.

What world to come?

I think that the writer is speaking of the Day of the LORD and as we see that Day approaching to meet more and more etc.

 

[coraline]

Hebrews speaks of the fact that we see not yet all things put under Christ, and that he is waiting til his enemies be made his footstool. Hebrews also speaks of the world to come.

What world to come?

I think that the writer is speaking of the Day of the LORD and as we see that Day approaching to meet more and more etc.

The Hebrews in AD66 had not seen God put all things under his feet yet.

But it would happen in AD70 when the enemies of Christ, the Judaizers, would suffer tribulation for persecuting the saints.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yet you fail to disprove God's words about the time frames in Revelation 1 and 22- and perpetuate it into some fictional future perhaps a million years from now even! Sad.

You think it's sad that Christians believe in the Parosia, the return of Christ?

 

[ebedmelech]

Hebrews speaks of the fact that we see not yet all things put under Christ, and that he is waiting til his enemies be made his footstool. Hebrews also speaks of the world to come.

What world to come?

I think that the writer is speaking of the Day of the LORD and as we see that Day approaching to meet more and more etc.

The point Hebrews is making is that Christ has not elected to come in judgment of the world yet...however I doubt anyone denies He has the power do do so.

People tend to forget that there are still those who will be saved in the future, this is why Jesus has not come. All things are under His feet...we just don't see it now. This is the deception of the unbelieving world, they think they have things their way, yet when Jesus comes they'll get a rude awakening.

This is 2 Peter 3:8, 9 in action...Jesus is being merciful.

 

[mark kennedy]

The Hebrews in AD66 had not seen God put all things under his feet yet. But it would happen in AD70 when the enemies of Christ, the Judaizers, would suffer tribulation for persecuting the saints.

When exactly did Christ return in power and glory? I missed the part where the whole point of Revelations was literally fulfilled in 70 AD.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hebrews speaks of the fact that we see not yet all things put under Christ, and that he is waiting til his enemies be made his footstool. Hebrews also speaks of the world to come.

What world to come?

I think that the writer is speaking of the Day of the LORD and as we see that Day approaching to meet more and more etc.

That's exactly what it means brother, well said.

The point Hebrews is making is that Christ has not elected to come in judgment of the world yet...however I doubt anyone denies He has the power do do so.

And as a Christian you believe he is going to right?

People tend to forget that there are still those who will be saved in the future, this is why Jesus has not come. All things are under His feet...we just don't see it now. This is the deception of the unbelieving world, they think they have things their way, yet when Jesus comes they'll get a rude awakening.

You could say that. After the vials of wrath the Beast and Babylon is having a big celebration, they have endured the worst heaven has to reign down on them. They still believe they can win. Then, as far as I can tell in an instant, they are finished and the Antichrist and the False Prophet get the dubious distinction of being the first to be cast bodily into the lake of fire.

Yea, that's a pretty rude awakening alright.

This is 2 Peter 3:8, 9 in action...Jesus is being merciful.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3: 8,9)​

Amen

 

[ebedmelech]

And as a Christian you believe he is going to right?

Of course. However you have too many passages that say that is the case right now.

*Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

*Ephesians 1:18-23:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

*Colossians 1:15-20:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

This is the point...AND this is the reign of Christ. It is right now, but people want to look at the world as proof of it. The world is proof of the need of Christ...the church is proof of the reign of Christ.

You could say that. After the vials of wrath the Beast and Babylon is having a big celebration, they have endured the worst heaven has to reign down on them. They still believe they can win. Then, as far as I can tell in an instant, they are finished and the Antichrist and the False Prophet get the dubious distinction of being the first to be cast bodily into the lake of fire.

The vials have been poured out. Revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is typified as Babylon, that's why she is called "Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots"...how many times are the prophets calling Israel/Jerusalem a harlot?

We are in the period of Revelation 20 that is the thousand year reign.

Yea, that's a pretty rude awakening alright.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3: 8,9)​

Amen

This is the point...the thousand years are right now. "Thousand" is figurative of the reign of Christ...just as when God says "cattle on a THOUSAND hills" are His means he owns everything...or when God says He is faithful to the THOUSANDTH generation, means all generations.

Notice it says "when the thousand years are ended"...this is not a literal period of time.

 

[branchofthevine]

You have wholly missed the argument presented in the OP. The argument was not that in Greek, the presence of the article means it is literal. It was that not a single typical use of such a statement in the entire rest of the Bible included an article. But here, the article is used three times, (not two, as you incorrectly stated.)

I said that the article appears four times while two times it does not appear. I checked with my other Greek Bible and apparently there is one usage in v6 which the article is in some manuscripts, but not all of them. It would depend on your translation I suppose and what Greek manuscript it uses. Also, the article in v4 is dropped in other texts, so there is another ambiguity.
you did say this though

But Greek, whenever the definite article in included, it is for stress. So whenever we find the Greek word ho in the Greek text, is is speaking of something specific, not just something in general.
So when we find the term "the thousand years" in verses 3, 5, and 7, the Holy Spirit is stressing the fact that this is a particular thousand year period, not just some kind of a general period of time.

But the article points back to say that for the 5 times it is used elsewhere, it is the same thousand years as the first mention and not another thousand years which is different. The fact that the thousand years can be figurative-> a long period of time within history, is still available as the interpretation with the rest of the mentions of χιλια saying "this is the same period, not another one". The reason for this is because the Greek language doesn't have a real indefinite article like english. There is a way to use one "εις χιλια" would be "a thousand" where as "χιλια" by itself is translated as "a thousand", it does not point to the noun being literal or symbolic. It points back to the previous time the word is mentioned.

I responded mainly because if you are basing an argument off of a usage of the article, you should make sure to use it rightly.

You are correct that each use of the article here refers to the previously mentioned period. But you incorrectly dismiss the fact that the use of the article in all three of the cases where we read "the thousand years" in Revelation 20 makes the words "thousand years" refer to a particular thousand year period, not just some general long period of time.

However, that statement is built on the assumption that the thousand years are a literal period in time. The inclusion of the article does not mean that it has to be a literal thousand years. It doesn't mean that it isn't, but it shows that the interpretation needs to come from another source. The interpretation of the noun χιλια needs to be understood from its context and the meaning of the other events in Rev 20. Another similar case can be drawn from the word σαρξ. Σαρξ (flesh) is interpreted in a variety of ways: physical human flesh, animal flesh, sinful nature, human weakness. However, the spelling is the same, and the usage of the article for σαρξ is strictly literal and not involved in the interpretation part of the word. So, the words η σαρξ, or just σαρξ can hold any of those meanings regardless of whether it has the article or not. It is the same thing here. Regardless of whether it is χιλια or τα χιλια does not impact the interpretation aspect that much. It is possible that χιλια is referring to a literal 1000 year period, or that it is being used figuratively of something else.

The first case was in verse 3, where it refers to the particular thousand year period in which Satan will be bound. (And is it utter folly to argue that he is bound at the present time. He was bound "that he should deceive the nations no more," and it is perfectly obvious that he is deceiving the nations at the present time.)

This is what I like to see. You are using other events to interpret what the thousand years are. Good job!

The second case was in verse 5, where it refers to the particular thousand year period in which the saints shall reign with Christ. (And is is sheer nonsense to argue that the saints are reigning while they were being persecuted through most of the last two thousand years, and are being persecuted through out most of the world, even today.)

Again, this is a step in the right direction. Using both an understanding of "the binding of satan" and "the reigning of Christ" to be used to understand whether the term "thousand" is literal or figurative. I saw you using the Greek to explain the exegesis, and I wanted to jump in. I would also like to mention one thing about the Greek article since you said:

But Greek, whenever the definite article in included, it is for stress.

I did mention that there are 9 general uses of the Greek article, and the 9th is actually used for stress, or emphasis rather, but it goes as follows (the following is taken from "It's Still Greek to Me"- David Alan Black): "The repitition of the article with some wor or phrase that modifies the noun is employed for emphasis. Here the article functions as a mild relative pronoun: ο λογος ... ο του σταυρου, "the word that [is] of the cross. (1 Cor. 1:18)" (end of quote). The double article "ο, του" (I can't do accents, so sorry about that part) expresses emphasis, but the double article doesn't appear in the text in Revelation 20, so it would be hard pressed to say it is added for emphasis unless you can prove that the double article is used.

And the third case in verse 7, where it again refers to the particular thousand year period in which Satan will be bound.

yes! And the same thousand years referred throughout the chapter is the same period of time! I didn't come to try and disprove the literal thousand year reign, but to show that the interpretation cannot come through the article being attached. Because you used it, i wanted to comment. I wanted to encourage you to understand the thousand years from a more correct method of exegesis so that you might not trip up over this area, but to gain a more clear understanding about this passage.

There is one final thing though: Dr. Edith Humphrey (William F. Orr Professor of New Testament Pittsburgh Theological Seminary,) has written her thesis and other books on the book of Revelation (her thesis being on Chapter 12) and does explore the idea of reigning with Christ, and suffering for Him. Simply put. If you are interested in this stuff, her materials may be something you should investigate.

 

[mark kennedy]

Of course. However you have too many passages that say that is the case right now.

It always was and always will be, what's that got to do with the Parosia?

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

So when is the 'end of the world' exactly because I was under the distinct impression it was at the end of the age when when he returns in power and glory.

having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:18-23)​

Yes, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, the same place he occupied before the foundation of the world. Still waiting for the part where this tells us that the Parosia has already happened.

This is the point...AND this is the reign of Christ. It is right now, but people want to look at the world as proof of it. The world is proof of the need of Christ...the church is proof of the reign of Christ.

Even when his lifeless body was in the tomb, his reign did not end. Christ does not rule this world and it's not because he lacks the authority or the power.

“Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:8)​

Now unless Christ returned without my knowing it we are still waiting for that time when:

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15)​

There are too many passages that say that is definitely not the case right now.

The vials have been poured out. Revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is typified as Babylon, that's why she is called "Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots"...how many times are the prophets calling Israel/Jerusalem a harlot?

No, it's not just Jerusalem, it's not even identified as Jerusalem and Jerusalem in the Tribulation is described as:

Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)​

To this day Jerusalem is being trampled under foot by the Gentiles. To date there have been no such prophets speaking in Jerusalem for three and a half years, died and then resurrected and ascended into heaven bodily.

Where did you learn hermeneutics?

We are in the period of Revelation 20 that is the thousand year reign.

You know, repeating that erroneous statement statement when both of us know Christ has not returned in power and glory isn't the same thing as an argument. You pretty much came out and admitted Christ has not returned in the opening of your response and proceeded to beg the question of proof to the contrary.

This is the point...the thousand years are right now. "Thousand" is figurative of the reign of Christ...just as when God says "cattle on a THOUSAND hills" are His means he owns everything...or when God says He is faithful to the THOUSANDTH generation, means all generations.

Notice it says "when the thousand years are ended"...this is not a literal period of time.

We have guys just like you in the Origins Theology forum. No matter how many New Testament dictionaries, concordances and lexicons say otherwise, you'll argue that 'day' does not mean 'day' and a 'thousand years' does not mean a 'thousand years'. I don't know why but it's not because that's what the Scriptures teach and certainly not because that's what they say.

I say again, when did the Parosia happen exactly?

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 50:

Therefore, the "thousand years" had to be figurative to occur within the time frame God said to take place shortly at both the beginning (Rev.1) & the end of the Christian Bible Rev.22 -that confirms all the visions & events would happen "soon."

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).