Why the Fall?

Daaa

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I have looked up two different versions of the bible and these verses, as well as two commentaries for contrast/comparison.

Psalms 90:1-4 (ESV)
(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)

Lord, you have been our dwelling place
in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

You return man to dust
and say, “Return, O children of man!”
For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night


Psalms 90:1-4 (KJV)
(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place
in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world,
even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Thou turnest man to destruction;
and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
For a thousand years in thy sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
and as a watch in the night


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Psalms Chapter 90
The eternity of God, the frailty of man. (1- 6)
Submission to Divine chastisements. (7- 11)
Prayer for mercy and grace. (12- 17)
Psalms Chapter 90 Verses. 1- 6
It is supposed that this psalm refers to the sentence passed on Israel in the wilderness, Numbers ch 14. The favor and protection of God are the only sure rest and comfort of the soul in this evil world. Christ Jesus is the refuge and dwelling- place to which we may repair. We are dying creatures, all our comforts in the world are dying comforts, but God is an ever- living God, and believers find him so. When God, by sickness, or other afflictions, turns men to destruction, he thereby calls men to return unto him to repent of their sins, and live a new life. A thousand years are nothing to God's eternity:between a minute and a million of years there is some proportion; between time and eternity there is none. All the events of a thousand years, whether past or to come, are more present to the Eternal Mind, than what was done in the last hour is to us. And in the resurrection, the body and soul shall both return and be united again. Time passes unobserved by us, as with men asleep; and when it is past, it is as nothing. It is a short and quickly- passing life, as the waters of a flood. Man does but flourish as the grass, which, when the winter of old age comes, will wither; but he may be mown down by disease or disaster

Jamieson, Fassuet, and Brown Commentary
PSALM 90
Ps 90:1- 17. Contrasting man's frailty with God's eternity, the writer mourns over it as the punishment of sin, and prays for a return of the divine favor. A Prayer [mainly such] of Moses the man of God-- (De 33:1; Jos 14:6); as such he wrote this (see on Ps 18:1, title, and Ps 36:1, title).

1. dwelling- place-- home (compare Eze 11:16), as a refuge (De 33:27).
2. brought forth [and] formed-- both express the idea of production by birth.
3. to destruction-- literally, "even to dust" (Ge 3:19), which is partly quoted in the last clause.
4. Even were our days now a thousand years, as Adam's, our life would be but a moment in God's sight (2Pe 3:8).
a watch-- or, third part of a night (compare Ex 14:24).
5, 6. Life is like grass, which, though changing under the influence of the night's dew, and flourishing in the morning, is soon cut down and withereth (Ps 103:15; 1Pe 1:24)

I hope this can add something to the conversation.

Sorry the commentary is in error, there is no mention of It is supposed that this psalm refers to the sentence passed on Israel in the wilderness, Numbers ch 14.

On the contrary... look at the time element "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting"

Also i noticed how
most of your verse did not even include what God did: "You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men"
 
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GreatistheLord

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joshuabjoshua said:
Yeah, I just didn't want to debate. I still don't want to but I'm going to defend my beliefs if that guy thinks believing in sovereignty is heresy...

Maybe you should read what i actually said instead of putting words in my mouth.
 
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Daaa

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you want to make God responsible for all things? Too bad, you just made him Satan's puppet-master.

Good luck with the worship of such a god, you may want to join a calvinist church, they wouldn't blink an eye at such heresy. Of course, they will say that God is not morally responsible for such evil, and still yet very much the first cause in every case - all without a word of explanation how their *theory* can be justified.

You have no idea what heresy is. Anything you cannot prove is hersey.

God created Satan as a liar and a murderer never an angel. That is a religious myth.

Satan has deceived people who blindly follow the Rome and her baby sisters to believe this lie.

Satan is a puppet in the hands of a might God, but never an angel.
 
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Daaa

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GreatistheLord,

Difference between you and I is I am a seeker of truth not a defender of bias. The mighty God creator and savior of all things can never fit it the confines of some man’s religious bias; He is just too amazing and awesome.

The word revelation means the unveiling, the new wine is better than the old, yesterdays manna stinks.
 
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ToBeBlessed

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Sorry the commentary is in error, there is no mention of It is supposed that this psalm refers to the sentence passed on Israel in the wilderness, Numbers ch 14.

On the contrary... look at the time element "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting"

Also i noticed how
most of your verse did not even include what God did: "You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men"

That's not true. Both the ESV and KJV of both verses are in that post and highlighted, but for your reference I will add only the verses you are referring to below.

ESV
You return man to dust
and say, “Return, O children of man!”

KJV
Thou turnest man to destruction;
and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

As far as the commentaries, I have them in my Olive Tree Bible Study and I thought I would share them. I read them (commentaries) to get a better idea of what scholars THOUGHT the verses meant. I don't make these things up and have included for reference EXACTLY where they came from.

This is meant to add to the understanding. I won't share them anymore in this thread if you like.

I think it is a little rude to condemn someone who is also learning about the Lord and scriptures. I have included all the scripture, which version of the bible it came from and all references. I do not think that I am out to deceive you.

I will note though that in BOTH versions of scripture, that the title of the verses we were talking about said "(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)" so I think it may very well be about Israel.
 
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Daaa

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That's not true. Both the ESV and KJV of both verses are in that post and highlighted, but for your reference I will add only the verses you are referring to below.

ESV
You return man to dust
and say, “Return, O children of man!”

KJV
Thou turnest man to destruction;
and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

As far as the commentaries, I have them in my Olive Tree Bible Study and I thought I would share them. I read them (commentaries) to get a better idea of what scholars THOUGHT the verses meant. I don't make these things up and have included for reference EXACTLY where they came from.

This is meant to add to the understanding. I won't share them anymore in this thread if you like.

I think it is a little rude to condemn someone who is also learning about the Lord and scriptures. I have included all the scripture, which version of the bible it came from and all references. I do not think that I am out to deceive you.

I will note though that in BOTH versions of scripture, that the title of the verses we were talking about said "(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)" so I think it may very well be about Israel.
It is not religious scholars who lead and guide us into all truth, it is the Spirit of truth with in each one of us. God with in us. All religions have scholars; Rome, JW, Mormons etc.

You "think may very well be about Israel"?

Well answer this simple question? Look at the time element in these verses?

Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God

Now explain to me how Israel who was NOT God chosen people until after Abraham fit into this time element?
 
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ToBeBlessed

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It is not religious scholars who lead and guide us into all truth, it is the Spirit of truth with in each one of us. God with in us. All religions have scholars; Rome, JW, Mormons etc.

You "think may very well be about Israel"?

Well answer this simple question? Look at the time element in these verses?

Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God

Now explain to me how Israel who was NOT God chosen people until after Abraham fit into this time element?

Scripture tells us that God knew us before we were.

The OT lineage all starts with Israel. The promise was made to Abraham, but this lineage was always special to God.

I'm not getting the point that you are trying to make?
 
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Daaa

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Scripture tells us that God knew us before we were.

The OT lineage all starts with Israel. The promise was made to Abraham, but this lineage was always special to God.

I'm not getting the point that you are trying to make?
Are you forgetting it stated with Adam? Which means "man"?

Israel did not even exist at the time this verse of speaking of. THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO ISRAEL ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ASSUME.

If Israel was who this verse was speaking of there would be some point of reference to Israel.

The only one mentioned here is "man/men".

Not God's choosen people, not Israel or the the Jews

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
 
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GreatistheLord

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Daaa said:
GreatistheLord,

Difference between you and I is I am a seeker of truth not a defender of bias. The mighty God creator and savior of all things can never fit it the confines of some man's religious bias; He is just too amazing and awesome.

The word revelation means the unveiling, the new wine is better than the old, yesterdays manna stinks.

This is a forum for intelligent discussion. If you want to throw accusations, Please back them up. I never denied Gods sovereignty, i just denied that it has to look like a schoolboys dictionary definition, thats all.

Have a nice life.
 
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Daaa

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This is a forum for intelligent discussion. If you want to throw accusations, Please back them up. I never denied Gods sovereignty, i just denied that it has to look like a schoolboys dictionary definition, thats all.

Have a nice life.
I see you bias opinion is your intelligent discussion; and the Word of God is not?

So you admit god caused the fall. And controls all things including all evil?

You have a nice life too.
 
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felipegdj

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The Bible is plain and simple, The Devil fell long time ago, then he caused man to fall, God knows that human would fall, so He prepared his own Son to catch them that fell and those that are are falling, You might ask why did he do that? He used man to defeat the Devil, and at the same time test humans.
 
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ToBeBlessed

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The Bible is plain and simple, The Devil fell long time ago, then he caused man to fall, God knows that human would fall, so He prepared his own Son to catch them that fell and those that are are falling, You might ask why did he do that? He used man to defeat the Devil, and at the same time test humans.

This sounds like predestination the way you worded that.

The Devil fell, God created man in His image, Satan hated man, humans fell, God created a plan of redemption for fallen man (not to defeat the devil, but because He loves us) and in the end He will defeat the devil and throw him in hell.


God doesn't have to use man to defeat the devil. If He chose to defeat the devil today, He could do that. He has chosen to do that later, as we know from the books of Daniel and Revelation.

God loves us! He doesn't need us for anything, he wants us. Out of love.

Let's not get it twisted. :thumbsup:
 
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Daaa

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The Bible is plain and simple, The Devil fell long time ago, then he caused man to fall, God knows that human would fall, so He prepared his own Son to catch them that fell and those that are are falling, You might ask why did he do that? He used man to defeat the Devil, and at the same time test humans.

God had a savior long before there was a sinner. For the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. God planned the fall and Satan if anything was a part of God's plan.

By the way Satan was never an angel

II Cor. 11:14. It says Satan is able to transform himself into an angel of light, but according to the Greek, the word is not transform -- it is

MASQUERADE (Strong's). This is as close as he has ever been to being light -- as a masquerading actor.

Satan is masquerading as a angel of light

Wow. God Word even tells us.
 
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Daaa

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This sounds like predestination the way you worded that.

The Devil fell, God created man in His image, Satan hated man, humans fell, God created a plan of redemption for fallen man (not to defeat the devil, but because He loves us) and in the end He will defeat the devil and throw him in hell.


God doesn't have to use man to defeat the devil. If He chose to defeat the devil today, He could do that. He has chosen to do that later, as we know from the books of Daniel and Revelation.

God loves us! He doesn't need us for anything, he wants us. Out of love.

Let's not get it twisted. :thumbsup:
So you are saying the fall caught God by surprise so he had to make a plan after the fact? Ignoring all the verses I posted about God having a plan before creation?
 
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Daaa

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What is important is that God provided a plan for man's redemption and salvation. That is the Good News! Praise be to God.

Yes that is important, but what to is important is we seek the deep truths so we hear what God is really saying.

To Hear

There are 46 verses in the Book of Revelation which speak of hearing. Notice this hearing is sigular not plural.

It does not say those who belong to a special group or system who have ears to hear, but those that hear the words.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
 
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1livelystone

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I'm not sure how well it can be explained in the perimeters of a thread post, but I will give it a try.

Evil was already in existence before Adam was formed, and as God has said in the Bible He created evil, and it is His hand that has formed the crooked serpent.

While the above sounds contradictory to a God who “so loved the world,” the truth is God is a just and balanced God, and the law of polarity is a universally balanced equation that existed in the spiritual world as well as it does in universal energy that appears in the physical world.

Consequently through the law of polarity evil had to make its appearance in the garden the same as it had to tempt Jesus. When it failed on the mountaintop and was totally overcome at the cross, the same law of polarity that governs both evil and good means it now attacks Jesus in the one place where He is still vulnerable, the body of Christ on earth.

It is the law of polarity that is the “another law” living in his members along with the law of sin that Paul referred to in Romans 7:23 that led to him being taken captive by the law of sin causing him to do what he did not want to do as well as kept him from doing what he wanted to do.

Having said all this it is important that we understand; because evil was already in existence within the spiritual world before the garden and Adam were formed in the physical world, by law evil had to make its appearance within the physical world. This is the law of polarity at work.

However, because we serve a God who has a name above every other name who is the alpha and the omega, the creator of all things, and all things serve Him who calls things as if they are even now they are not yet, God devised a plan where evil took on sin that was then condemned to death.

Consequently, while evil continues to self-destruct every day on earth a new place is being formed were father and son (and daughters) can be together forever. However, even with the law of polarity being a perpetual universal law, evil cannot make an appearance "in the place Jesus has gone to prepare" because it has already been condemned to death in a physical world that it is unable to leave from alive.

In cliff notes there is first a spiritual world that has manifested itself in a physical world that will return to a spiritual world that is the end result of the accumulation of everything.

Because Adam was first created perfect and with the mind of Christ he was unable to fall for anything contrary to God. Therefore Adam had to be modified before he would succumb to evil, and this happened when Paul spoke of Adam being "made subject to vanity not willingly but by the same God" who has subjected us to hope.

The phrase "made subject to vanity" means to be altered so not to be able to perform as it originally could perform (perfect).

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope


Therefore Eve was created from the life already within Adam's flesh that served the interest of Adam's flesh rather than be obedient to Adam's creator. This is why God said man has become as "one of us" because one of the seven fold spirits of God is the spirit of counsel, By Adam by yielding to his flesh instead of to God, Adam had taken on the spirit of counsel in himself instead of receiving counsel from God

Isa, 11: and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;


I hope this makes sense but if not I do not believe debating it will bear fruit. Because God is responsible for sin He has taken the responsibility of providing an antidote for sin seen through the sacrifice of Himself in human form that at some point every knee will bow down and worship

So be it.
 
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ozarkview

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I'm not sure how well it can be explained in the perimeters of a thread post, but I will give it a try.

Evil was already in existence before Adam was formed, and as God has said in the Bible He created evil, and it is His hand that has formed the crooked serpent.

While the above sounds contradictory to a God who “so loved the world,” the truth is God is a just and balanced God, and the law of polarity is a universally balanced equation that existed in the spiritual world as well as it does in universal energy that appears in the physical world.

Consequently through the law of polarity evil had to make its appearance in the garden the same as it had to tempt Jesus. When it failed on the mountaintop and was totally overcome at the cross, the same law of polarity that governs both evil and good means it now attacks Jesus in the one place where He is still vulnerable, the body of Christ on earth.

It is the law of polarity that is the “another law” living in his members along with the law of sin that Paul referred to in Romans 7:23 that led to him being taken captive by the law of sin causing him to do what he did not want to do as well as kept him from doing what he wanted to do.

Having said all this it is important that we understand; because evil was already in existence within the spiritual world before the garden and Adam were formed in the physical world, by law evil had to make its appearance within the physical world. This is the law of polarity at work.

However, because we serve a God who has a name above every other name who is the alpha and the omega, the creator of all things, and all things serve Him who calls things as if they are even now they are not yet, God devised a plan where evil took on sin that was then condemned to death.

Consequently, while evil continues to self-destruct every day on earth a new place is being formed were father and son (and daughters) can be together forever. However, even with the law of polarity being a perpetual universal law, evil cannot make an appearance "in the place Jesus has gone to prepare" because it has already been condemned to death in a physical world that it is unable to leave from alive.

In cliff notes there is first a spiritual world that has manifested itself in a physical world that will return to a spiritual world that is the end result of the accumulation of everything.

Because Adam was first created perfect and with the mind of Christ he was unable to fall for anything contrary to God. Therefore Adam had to be modified before he would succumb to evil, and this happened when Paul spoke of Adam being "made subject to vanity not willingly but by the same God" who has subjected us to hope.

The phrase "made subject to vanity" means to be altered so not to be able to perform as it originally could perform (perfect).

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope


Therefore Eve was created from the life already within Adam's flesh that served the interest of Adam's flesh rather than be obedient to Adam's creator. This is why God said man has become as "one of us" because one of the seven fold spirits of God is the spirit of counsel, By Adam by yielding to his flesh instead of to God, Adam had taken on the spirit of counsel in himself instead of receiving counsel from God

Isa, 11: and the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;


I hope this makes sense but if not I do not believe debating it will bear fruit. Because God is responsible for sin He has taken the responsibility of providing an antidote for sin seen through the sacrifice of Himself in human form that at some point every knee will bow down and worship

So be it.
Wow, looks like you got it,
I think if you follow through, and study Cain, you would ultimately see his purpose, he was actually the first murder, why God, protected him, from who, and what his mark is.

Did you consider in Gen there seems to be two creations of man? . Mankind, and a Certain man?

Easily explains Where land of Nod is and whom Cain feared, also explains parable of the tares…fig... others -good and evil to create good fruit.

Simple explanation to grasp
We were all spiritual bodies before flesh, we all must be born from above, we must understand and learn true Love of each other and fully believe God is our Lord and savior. To enter the third heaven this is still on earth.

God has given us everything we need to choose good or evil, light or darkness including and especially Jesus who is our way, truth and life…

We in the flesh are created in the same image and likeness as God and our spiritual body’s less our memory, and will be after the first death transformed back to our spiritual body’s. However those who survive the second death will have all memory of sin and evil erased…

Life in the flesh is a filtering of our own soul/spirit… to prepare for eternity free of evil/sin darkness with our Creator, Lord and savior..


God bless...
 
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ozarkview

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God is good and love and man has free will and I don't believe God foreknew Lucifer would sin and this was the only way man could get redemption and not end up like satan and the demons who I believe were from the first creation.
I could see with what is written that Lucifer wanted to be as God, thus the third of the angels following him.

God obviously was not pleased and then the overthrow.
The serpent was in the Garden so we know it was pre Garden.

Why is that point whether God knew or not so important?
 
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