Why the Fall?

Daaa

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Who caused the fall?
God, Adam, Eve, Satan?

Genesis really does not identify why all born of Adam were effected by this very major event in human history.

Adam and Eve were innocent human beings made in God's image and likeness, and formed from the dust of the ground and made a living soul.

Satan to is a created being and can he really do anything outside of the will of a mighty God.

That leaves us God. Something as enormous as the fall of all humanity would he not be in control of this major event?

To me it makes sence it was God.
 

Daaa

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Notice God's Word tells us God caused man to fall.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
 
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Daaa

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Are you a calvinist? God doesnt have to be directly involved in everything to remain sovereign. He does not tempt, it is in the Bible.

No I am not a Calvinst. God is sovereign over ALL things or He is a god. God caused the fall. Notice Psalm 90 which I posted. These are not Calvinst beliefs, this is a scriptural fact. Did I mention tempt?

God does send evil spirits, God controls all things
 
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J0SHUA

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I believe God has preordained everything. He could have predestined saving everyone or destroying everyone, but He wanted both for optimum glory to show both His wrath and forgiveness. That does not mean it's God fault though; human responsibility is still very real. It is therefore Satan's fault, because he was the root of the issue, telling a lie. However, God is glorified through those justly being sentenced to eternal damnation. Praise the Lord, His will is good. Every movement on this Earth happens according to His will, and it's all for a good purpose.

Those are my beliefs anyways (yes, I am Calvinist :p) :)
Ephesians 1:11 & Romans 9:22-23 are my Scriptural support if wanted. I do not want to argue or debate though.
 
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Daaa

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I believe God has preordained everything. He could have predestined saving everyone or destroying everyone, but He wanted both for optimum glory to show both His wrath and forgiveness. That does not mean it's God fault though; human responsibility is still very real. It is therefore Satan's fault, because he was the root of the issue, telling a lie. However, God is glorified through those justly being sentenced to eternal damnation. Praise the Lord, His will is good. Every movement on this Earth happens according to His will, and it's all for a good purpose.

Those are my beliefs anyways (yes, I am Calvinist :p) :)
Ephesians 1:11 & Romans 9:22-23 are my Scriptural support if wanted. I do not want to argue or debate though.

If you cannot debate than you are satisfied and that is all of God you will ever know. It is the seeking, asking and knocking that allows us to go beyond the veil of our seeing in part, or carnal understanding and our quest for truth.

God did cause the fall so if it is God's doing it it will be God's restoring.

Satan is a liar and a murderer and can do nothing unless God ordains it.

Something new in scripture is what God wants us to seek for. The new wine is better than the old
 
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Daaa

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Yeah that's true but I've decided it's better for us to love one another than argue, so I won't debate. I see your point though. Believe what you are fully convinced Scripture is teaching.

You are right if you take love out of the picture you should not debate, but at the same time can we limited God to whatever man made limit we have established?

That is what religion is .

I am a spiritual man.

How hungry are you for God; how deep do you dare to probe, where your limits of God is in what you perceive who He is.

I read an article a while back from a man I respect as and believe anointed of God in many way. This man spoke of a dream he had where he was sitting at a table full of spiritual food, across the table was Jesus. They just sat there eating all this food which was right in front of them.

As they sat there the man sup with Jesus, he noticed Billy Graham come to the table get a plate full of spiritual food, and he left. This happened over and over as he noticed many well known deep men of God eat from this table and then leave. He then asks Jesus why they leaved after so little when there was so much to eat. Jesus replied to Him, they were satisfied.

I had an experience happen to me where for a time I feasted and feasted on some deep anointed literature; let me tell you something; I am satisfied; sure I want more.'Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if ANY MAN hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to HIM and sup with HIM and he with ME.'
 
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Daaa

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Yes it did happen. And God took the blame not little Adam.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
 
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GreatistheLord

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you want to make God responsible for all things? Too bad, you just made him Satan's puppet-master.

Good luck with the worship of such a god, you may want to join a calvinist church, they wouldn't blink an eye at such heresy. Of course, they will say that God is not morally responsible for such evil, and still yet very much the first cause in every case - all without a word of explanation how their *theory* can be justified.
 
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GreatistheLord

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joshuabjoshua said:
Haha how is scripturism...ahem, I mean calvinism...heresy? "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”" Romans 9:20.

You're too funny. I wasnt even talking about election. But, yes, i reserve the right to talk back to you, every calvinist, and every pseudo - christian Cult member. If you think you are God, its time to call the crazy house, thanks for the laugh.
 
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Daaa

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you want to make God responsible for all things? Too bad, you just made him Satan's puppet-master.

Good luck with the worship of such a god, you may want to join a calvinist church, they wouldn't blink an eye at such heresy. Of course, they will say that God is not morally responsible for such evil, and still yet very much the first cause in every case - all without a word of explanation how their *theory* can be justified.


I am not a calvinist.

So God is not soverign?

Where does it say it is heresy that God is control of the world He created? Oh I see you are upset with the Word of God so you strike out with your opinion based on what?

My theory is justified with Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Which you refuse to address.
 
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J0SHUA

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Josh

This is what I was addressing tp you earlier. Don't limit God to what someone taught

Yeah, I just didn't want to debate. I still don't want to but I'm going to defend my beliefs if that guy thinks believing in sovereignty is heresy...
 
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ToBeBlessed

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Notice God's Word tells us God caused man to fall.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

I have looked up two different versions of the bible and these verses, as well as two commentaries for contrast/comparison.

Psalms 90:1-4 (ESV)
(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)

Lord, you have been our dwelling place
in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever you had formed the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

You return man to dust
and say, “Return, O children of man!”

For a thousand years in your sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
or as a watch in the night


Psalms 90:1-4 (KJV)
(A Prayer of Moses, the man of God)
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place
in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth,
or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world,
even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Thou turnest man to destruction;
and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

For a thousand years in thy sight
are but as yesterday when it is past,
and as a watch in the night


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Psalms Chapter 90
The eternity of God, the frailty of man. (1- 6)
Submission to Divine chastisements. (7- 11)
Prayer for mercy and grace. (12- 17)​

Psalms Chapter 90 Verses. 1- 6
It is supposed that this psalm refers to the sentence passed on Israel in the wilderness, Numbers ch 14. The favor and protection of God are the only sure rest and comfort of the soul in this evil world. Christ Jesus is the refuge and dwelling- place to which we may repair. We are dying creatures, all our comforts in the world are dying comforts, but God is an ever- living God, and believers find him so. When God, by sickness, or other afflictions, turns men to destruction, he thereby calls men to return unto him to repent of their sins, and live a new life. A thousand years are nothing to God's eternity:between a minute and a million of years there is some proportion; between time and eternity there is none. All the events of a thousand years, whether past or to come, are more present to the Eternal Mind, than what was done in the last hour is to us. And in the resurrection, the body and soul shall both return and be united again. Time passes unobserved by us, as with men asleep; and when it is past, it is as nothing. It is a short and quickly- passing life, as the waters of a flood. Man does but flourish as the grass, which, when the winter of old age comes, will wither; but he may be mown down by disease or disaster

Jamieson, Fassuet, and Brown Commentary
PSALM 90
Ps 90:1- 17. Contrasting man's frailty with God's eternity, the writer mourns over it as the punishment of sin, and prays for a return of the divine favor. A Prayer [mainly such] of Moses the man of God-- (De 33:1; Jos 14:6); as such he wrote this (see on Ps 18:1, title, and Ps 36:1, title).

1. dwelling- place-- home (compare Eze 11:16), as a refuge (De 33:27).
2. brought forth [and] formed-- both express the idea of production by birth.
3. to destruction-- literally, "even to dust" (Ge 3:19), which is partly quoted in the last clause.
4. Even were our days now a thousand years, as Adam's, our life would be but a moment in God's sight (2Pe 3:8).
a watch-- or, third part of a night (compare Ex 14:24).
5, 6. Life is like grass, which, though changing under the influence of the night's dew, and flourishing in the morning, is soon cut down and withereth (Ps 103:15; 1Pe 1:24)

I hope this can add something to the conversation.
 
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