Why the country’s youth are abandoning religious conservatism

[MachZer0]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm no longer surprised by the fact that I know more about the bible than most Christian, or that often atheists know more about the bible than Christians. It seems a lot of Christians haven't bothered to read it cover to cover. As it turns out, I have, so I can help you.

'I'm guessing you haven't read this part, so I helped you out and copied it. I even bolded the important part at the end to help you (No need to thank me)

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Hmmm. We seem to be getting a tad off topic here

 

[MachZer0]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm no longer surprised by the fact that I know more about the bible than most Christian, or that often atheists know more about the bible than Christians. It seems a lot of Christians haven't bothered to read it cover to cover. As it turns out, I have, so I can help you.

'I'm guessing you haven't read this part, so I helped you out and copied it. I even bolded the important part at the end to help you (No need to thank me)

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Let's try to get back on topic here. When I noted that the Bible foretells a falling away of the church, you responded thus:

LOL!

Yeah, J. K. Rowling should have added a line in her books "And some people won't believe this really happened." You would have declared her books holy scripture, and her a prophet.

Besides appearing to be a non sequitur, the post makes no sense to me whatsoever. Perhaps you could explain what you were trying to say so we can get back on topic

 

[JustOneWay]

not only does the Nation of Israel no longer exist,

If the nation of Israel no longer exists, what is that Israel imposter country in the middle east, and why do you support it?

 

[bhsmte]

Utter drivel.



No, it shows that I am being honest about them rather than pandering to their vanity with how supposedly wonderful and hardworking they are.

I have more than enough experience of life to know the truth on this. You can deny it all you want to.

What this shows is, your opinion, nothing else.

 

[bhsmte]

So basically, if the kids leave the church, it's not the church leaders' fault??? It's because the kids haven't grown ears to hear what God is saying to them???

I gotta tell ya, that sounds like a condescending cop out. Sorry, I just can't buy it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am of the belief that God works through people and uses people to do his will and to get his message across. Thus, we do have a measure of influence and accountability in whether we draw or repulse people to God's word. Human beings tend to be drawn to those who live by example. We are also all looking for answers, for support, for comfort, for knowledge, for things that will help us.

So it is absolutely within our influence to "turn people off". And the truth is, I see it all the time, that is, Christians turning people off to the Gospel, clubbing people over the head with a bible in such a way that said person wants nothing to do with Christianity.

THere is a right and a wrong way to do anything. Just because you are spreading the Gospel does not automatically mean you are going about it in the right way. If you are trying to spread the Gospel and you constantly end up turning people away, you need to take a hard look at yourself and what you are doing and how you are doing it.

To not do so is just Hubris.

If Conservative Christians (CC) want to attract youth to the church, they need to make church a fun positive experience. CC need to provide comfort and support and minimize alienation. CC need to stop losing legitimacy by purposefully instigating conflicts between religion and science when no such conflict exists!

The last one is a big one, a giant one, and it amazes me how many CC revel in their scientific ignorance, as if thumbing their nose at well established scientific theories is a litmus test of faith. As someone who has degrees in math and physics it annoys me to no end when CC keep pitting science against religion when the fact is, there does not have to be any conflict!!!! You can't say 2 + 2 = 5 and then expect youth to believe you about other things when you've just proven you have no idea what you are talking about.

But alas, for some reason CC have made certain fallacies a "litmus test" for how Christian you are. As if the more you believe these fallacies the more Christian you are. but alas, I digress.

Keep believing you are doing nothing wrong when the youth leave you churches en mass.

Well stated!

 

[janwoG]

The norm of post-Christian environment is now paganism in any form. Christianity is now a Diaspora. Liberal Christians and conservative Christians assimilate much more in the non-Christian culture than Evangelical Christians (parallel to Liberal, Conservative or Orthodox Jews). The weakness of Evangelical Christians is to be too literalist about the creation, what is an unnecessary hurdle. Provided I accept that God is sovereign and the cause of creation. I do not care if God is an artist, creating a man out of clay or a genial statistician selecting rare events to create a system of decreased entropy which leads to life. The only time unit suited for God is eternity. He could have created everything in less of second. The fact he decided to create the world in six days (how long last the Divine day?). The succession of creation in time favors a kind of evolution mechanism. The importance of the dimension time in the universe has to give the time to repent and get saved, what is not the possibility for fallen angels since they are immortal, thus not submitted to time.
The problem is the following: Christians are not accustomed to live in Diaspora and children cannot find partners sharing the values of their parents and assimilate in the Pagan culture. Orthodox Jews have much more experience how to keep their culture, being a tiny minority. They are organized in communities based on a network of families with common values and tradition. Do not forget that the laws and commandments are the cement of these communities, are tools of sanctification, thus a real tree of life. Really, we can learn a lot from the Jews.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

As children and teens by definition are not mature I guess they cannot be religious. Well done arguing our kids out of religion. I'll go tell 'em shall I that they can forget it as they aren't mature?

Kids can be religious according to the 'milk' of the word, but not the 'meat'.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Stoning rebellious children is a ceremonial law? Exactly what ceremony was that law intended for?

Actually stoning comes under judgments, not ceremonial laws. Also the whole passage is prefaced by the conditional word "If", which probably had the desired effect of greatly reducing misbehavior by minor children. There is no record a child actually being stoned for disobedience, or for striking a parent. The reason for the law was that disobedience and even violence against parents was common, in both Israel and the gentile world. All the commandments addressed bad behaviors that were common in that day. Israel was not to be like the gentile nation around her, thus these harsh laws.

 

[South Bound]

Kids can be religious according to the 'milk' of the word, but not the 'meat'.

Hold young people to a low standard and they'll aim low. Hold them to a high standard and they'll meet it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So basically, if the kids leave the church, it's not the church leaders' fault??? It's because the kids haven't grown ears to hear what God is saying to them???

I gotta tell ya, that sounds like a condescending cop out. Sorry, I just can't buy it.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am of the belief that God works through people and uses people to do his will and to get his message across. Thus, we do have a measure of influence and accountability in whether we draw or repulse people to God's word. Human beings tend to be drawn to those who live by example. We are also all looking for answers, for support, for comfort, for knowledge, for things that will help us.

Good points. It reminds that, overwhelmingly, it's the parent's fault if their kids reject the church. It is the parent's duty to frame church teaching in a way that they can understand. Parents must also 'walk the talk'; be an example of what they want their kids to become morally and spiritually.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hold young people to a low standard and they'll aim low. Hold them to a high standard and they'll meet it.

What is a low standard to adult Christians might well be a high standard for kids.

 

[bhsmte]

Hold young people to a low standard and they'll aim low. Hold them to a high standard and they'll meet it.

In reality, the above is true for people of all ages, not just children.

Now, the next variable that comes into play; whether the people expected to meet certain standards, agree with them.

 

[South Bound]

Now, the next variable that comes into play; whether the people expected to meet certain standards, agree with them.

If they're members, and they don't agree with it, then they're welcome to leave before church discipline is implemented.

If they're not members and they don't agree, then they won't become members and they'll be welcome to go somewhere else.

 

[bhsmte]

If they're members, and they don't agree with it, then they're welcome to leave before church discipline is implemented.

If they're not members and they don't agree, then they won't become members and they'll be welcome to go somewhere else.

On your first thought and looking at the spirit of the OP, if someone gets to a point of not being able to reconcile certain beliefs as being accurate, any standards coming from these beliefs will lack credibility and is a key reason young people are leaving the church.

On your second point, I fully support church's being able to set their own standards, whatever they may be.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

On your first thought and looking at the spirit of the OP, if someone gets to a point of not being able to reconcile certain beliefs as being accurate, any standards coming from these beliefs will lack credibility and is a key reason young people are leaving the church.

On your second point, I fully support church's being able to set their own standards, whatever they may be.

Many don't agree with their church's public stand on certain issues, but they are wise enough to keep it to themselves. It has been said that if there are 100people in church on any given Sunday they will hear 100 different sermons.

 

[bhsmte]

Many don't agree with their church's public stand on certain issues, but they are wise enough to keep it to themselves. It has been said that if there are 100people in church on any given Sunday they will hear 100 different sermons.

Sure, people perceive things in different ways and through their own filter. Some people, are big on hearing what they want to hear and selectively listen and ignore the rest.

And again, back to the spirit of the OP, the reason young people are leaving the church in larger numbers, is because they don't agree with the church's stand on certain issues.

 

[South Bound]

On your first thought and looking at the spirit of the OP, if someone gets to a point of not being able to reconcile certain beliefs as being accurate, any standards coming from these beliefs will lack credibility and is a key reason young people are leaving the church.

Then they should leave. Nothing wrong with pruning the tree from time to time. If somebody was only in the church because they were persuaded by an argument, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I'm all for the Biblical idea of church being for the ecclesia and not for the goats.

We Baptists are notorious for over-inflating our numbers. Probably 75% of the people in our churches have no business being there.

Those people who come and act as spectators, never learning, never participating, never being prepared for ministry, never offering anything, are rebuked in scripture and yet, our churches are full of them.

You try to portray people leaving as a bad thing, but you forget that, if the issue is people leaving, then the most important question is, who are those people and why were they there in the first place?

People who were brought by mom and dad as children and then left once they were no longer compelled to be there? Being made to go to church by mom and dad doesn't make one a Christian. It doesn't make one eligible for church membership. That person is still responsible for their selves and if they never got saved, then they shouldn't be there.

People who grew up in a Christian culture and attend church because it's what their family does, what their neighbors do, because they like the songs, the nice little inspirational message, the social aspects? I'm from the Deep South. That's 90% of the Christians down here. They grew up with an affinity for Christian culture, they know the appropriate points in the preaching to holler "Amen", they know all the songs and may even have a Gaither or Hee Haw Gospel Quartet CD in their car, and they play on the church softball team, they don't drink and they don't chew and they don't run with them that do, but they never repented and they never received Christ? Just repeated a canned prayer? Let them leave.

Doesn't mean we don't love them or love them any less or that we pluck them out like tares, but the Bible is pretty clear that the Church is for the Ekklesia, not for the goats.

We'll continue to love the and we'll continue to welcome them when they want to visit and we'll be the first ones to bring supper to their home if something happens, if they're apart from Christ by lack of any kind of salvation testimony or evidence of sanctification, then they're just not eligible.

I know to the non-Christian, that sounds harsh, but it's Jesus' Church and if that's the way He wants it, then it's not our place to change it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The last one is a big one, a giant one, and it amazes me how many CC revel in their scientific ignorance, as if thumbing their nose at well established scientific theories............

Global warming and evolution?

 

[South Bound]

Sure, people perceive things in different ways and through their own filter. Some people, are big on hearing what they want to hear and selectively listen and ignore the rest.

And again, back to the spirit of the OP, the reason young people are leaving the church in larger numbers, is because they don't agree with the church's stand on certain issues.

Then, back to my previous answer: If they're members and they disagree, why did they join? If they're not members and they disagree? Who cares if they leave? It's actually better for the unity and integrity of the church if they leave.

 

[bhsmte]

Then they should leave. Nothing wrong with pruning the tree from time to time. If somebody was only in the church because they were persuaded by an argument, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

I'm all for the Biblical idea of church being for the ecclesia and not for the goats.

We Baptists are notorious for over-inflating our numbers. Probably 75% of the people in our churches have no business being there.

Those people who come and act as spectators, never learning, never participating, never being prepared for ministry, never offering anything, are rebuked in scripture and yet, our churches are full of them.

You try to portray people leaving as a bad thing, but you forget that, if the issue is people leaving, then the most important question is, who are those people and why were they there in the first place?

People who were brought by mom and dad as children and then left once they were no longer compelled to be there? Being made to go to church by mom and dad doesn't make one a Christian. It doesn't make one eligible for church membership. That person is still responsible for their selves and if they never got saved, then they shouldn't be there.

People who grew up in a Christian culture and attend church because it's what their family does, what their neighbors do, because they like the songs, the nice little inspirational message, the social aspects? I'm from the Deep South. That's 90% of the Christians down here. They grew up with an affinity for Christian culture, they know the appropriate points in the preaching to holler "Amen", they know all the songs and may even have a Gaither or Hee Haw Gospel Quartet CD in their car, and they play on the church softball team, they don't drink and they don't chew and they don't run with them that do, but they never repented and they never received Christ? Just repeated a canned prayer? Let them leave.

Doesn't mean we don't love them or love them any less or that we pluck them out like tares, but the Bible is pretty clear that the Church is for the Ekklesia, not for the goats.

We'll continue to love the and we'll continue to welcome them when they want to visit and we'll be the first ones to bring supper to their home if something happens, if they're apart from Christ by lack of any kind of salvation testimony or evidence of sanctification, then they're just not eligible.

I know to the non-Christian, that sounds harsh, but it's Jesus' Church and if that's the way He wants it, then it's not our place to change it.

I agree with you.

IMO, many in the US are in church because they feel social pressure/family pressure to be there, but in reality, they have serious doubts as to their belief in what they are supposed to believe in.