Why Jerusalem Was The Babylonian harlot!

[Old Timer]

OK..

Based upon what we have learned here.. what if this question came up?

If Jacob stopped being Israel (based upon what we are told...that this is what Genesis 49 actually means)... then is God still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Perhaps another way of asking would be..

If the church of God is now Israel.. and Jacob is no longer Israel, then is God still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Does being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob carry onward to all generations, or did that also stop because of Genesis 49?

Just trying to stimulate some thought.. I know.. it's a lot of work..

 

[Bible2]

Old Timer said in post 164:

The church isn't in Jacob (Israel).. they're temporarily cut off, remember?

Note that not all genetic Jews are cut off, because there are believing genetic Jews as well as believing genetic Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). So only "some" (in the sense of not all) genetic Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17a) because of their unbelief in Jesus (Romans 11:20) and his saving New Covenant passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant passover (Numbers 9:13).

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b) but also the Gentiles in the church are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24) as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28) and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Old Timer said in post 164:

The church of God is in CHRIST.. while Israel remains blinded in part.

Amen. (See post 96.)

 

[shturt678s]

I don think they understand that faith in God is faith in Chirst.

One slight little itsy bitsy discrepancy, ie, "faith in God" = / "Faith in Christ" = a trust in God's promise that is centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ.

They (Jews) don't know Christ is God, if they did, they would understand our faith in him.

Too many of the Jews resisted Jesus, the Kingdom, and the rule of grace Jesus was establishing thus Jesus hid the former from them like He does today, ie, speaking in parables (Isa.6:9, 10).

They place their faith in God the father, YHVH.. We know him as Jesus Christ.


Faith and by faith alone..

Old Jack agreeing to disagree

btw all one has to do is assign levels of confidence based upon the contextual uncomfortable objective facts narrowing down the diverse interpretations regarding the supreme concept of the N.T., ie, the Kindgom of God in the first "7" parables in Matthew (Matt.13:3 through 13:44) - a walk in the park.

 

[shturt678s]

My pleasure, and thanks for revealing the deep spiritual truth here.

Actually Notrash did

Now we just have to digest that truth, or at the least have an agape for it.

Old shallow Jack

 

[Shocker]

One slight little itsy bitsy discrepancy, ie, "faith in God" = / "Faith in Christ" = a trust in God's promise that is centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ.

Too many of the Jews resisted Jesus, the Kingdom, and the rule of grace Jesus was establishing thus Jesus hid the former from them like He does today, ie, speaking in parables (Isa.6:9, 10).

Old Jack agreeing to disagree

btw all one has to do is assign levels of confidence based upon the contextual uncomfortable objective facts narrowing down the diverse interpretations regarding the supreme concept of the N.T., ie, the Kindgom of God in the first "7" parables in Matthew (Matt.13:3 through 13:44) - a walk in the park.

Sorry Jack, Jesus Christ is God.

I cant distinguish between Jesus Christ of the New Testament, or God of the Old.

They are the same Spirit, same message, same God.

Salvation in the NT is no different than salvation in the OT, faith alone..

 

[random person]

Sorry Jack, Jesus Christ is God.

I cant distinguish between Jesus Christ of the New Testament, or God of the Old.

They are the same Spirit, same message, same God.

Salvation in the NT is no different than salvation in the OT, faith alone..

It is not the same faith precisely, Romans 9:30-33, 10:1-6, Hebrews 7:15-19, Galatians 5:1-4!

 

[Shocker]

It is not the same faith precisely, Romans 9:30-33, 10:1-6, Hebrews 7:15-19, Galatians 5:1-4!

There is only one God.

I don't care how you have faith in him, so long as you have faith in God.

Jesus Christ is God.


Salvation, as it has always been, is by Grace through faith..

The Jews didn't understand this.

 

[NannaNae]

that is easy! so let say you ask any practicing Jew now or then, ask them if David's first son " the one greater than solomon " died for or to redeem David and Davids kingdom to redeem the temple yet to be built.. ? everyone of them will tell you yes.
Chances are that was his deal to cover all of them in those familes and those lines.. for his purposes ! What if that was his covenant with them or David and his kingdom in order to bring salvation to the whole world also.. people who had no covenants or right to that salvation ( yes us ) , or just maybe there has always been ancient promises to ancient kings and families in ancient places from ancient times ? . to be finished or completed during greater kingdom David's age " the one greater than Solomon's " kingdom age.
it will all be finished during the 1000 year reign. how we and they will get there is the very definition of his GRACE. not any kind of free rides for sinners.
but a way by which we can find a way to him in our life times.
so what if Grace is not the right to sin. what if grace is the right to have a way to him if we want it.
now you can find David's son or you can find the son of David ..

but we know for sure that the future kingdom will be ruled by David's son who was Greater (older?) than Solomon! by which if he had not died both times for our/ David's sin . no one would be saved!

 

[Notrash]

OK..

Based upon what we have learned here.. what if this question came up?

If Jacob stopped being Israel (based upon what we are told...that this is what Genesis 49 actually means)... then is God still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Perhaps another way of asking would be..

If the church of God is now Israel.. and Jacob is no longer Israel, then is God still the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Does being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob carry onward to all generations, or did that also stop because of Genesis 49?

Just trying to stimulate some thought.. I know.. it's a lot of work..

Again, the question you asked was about jacob and his 12 sons. Gen 49 points out that the influence and purpose of the lineage (the 12 sons)had their latter days at the coming of Shlloh (Jesus). Shiloh means Peace.

Jacob the individual still retains the implications and characteristics of the name Israel which is a name associated with children of God tbrough faith in him and his deliverence of the promised seed (his incarnation) Jacob/Israel (his changed name) is a foreimage of the change to occur through the adoption through faith in Christians.


Here is a question whos answer may help. Was/were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel members if the national covt of moses? (National Israel) see deut 5:1-5


Second question. When Moses delivered the law from mt nebo, just before crossing jordan was that nation and covenant promised to have a latter end? See deut 31:29; 4:25,26; 32:20,29. It was also prophecied to have a time of captivity and return from captivity in preparation for the new heart and new way or covt in deut 29:15-30:19. Daniel declares the babylonian captivity to be this curse of yhe law of moses in deut 29:15-30:5. The curse of the law is not therefore the post 70 AD so called diaspora.
70 AD was the LATTER END, with 132-135 the double honor (Is 61) and where his arm was not put down in Is 10.

One of the liberties allowed by inductive study techniques is to substitute synonyms for greek word definitiins and see if it better fits what the author might be trying to convey. This occurrs in various different translatiins.

You continue to say that Israel is temporarily hardened till the fullness (you say full number) of gentiles have come in.

Supposing it could be read; Part of (remaining national Israel) (who were still in unbelief at that time) were temporarily hardened, reserved to come to faith and graft into the faith (and promise of Christ) that the forefathers pre-imaged. And it was prophecied that some of these would in 40-67AD come to emulating faith because of their jealousy of the fullness of Gods blessing they would see in those who they had considered to be NOT a people of God.

Pleroma (fullness) is used in the NT (and earlier in ch 11 to mean the filling and peace of Gods spirit, blessings and gifts in his children of adoption.

Ethnos is equall translated nations as 'gentiles'

Eisercome hs a tense of a continuously occuring past event. Thus, until the filling of God in the nations had alredy been and would continue. It was this filling that was prophecied to make some of those in 55 AD who originally disbelieved jealous unto emulation (faith) NOW in 55 AD as he emphasises in vs 23 & 31,32.

The persecuting jews of 60 AD who originally disbelieved were NOT neccessarily 'cast off' They migh yet come to their senses (not through apologetics,l ogic or reason) by jealousy of the freedom and joy they saw.

The irrevocable calling and election tben is not referring to and electiin and favor of the physical descendencies BUT an irrevocable call to leave the way of law or works or faith in their descendancies FOR Gods election of grace through justification and hope in Jesus.

The believers needed to refrain from reverting to the misaic covt under pressure (heb 10) just as any who would yet believe would have to leave faith in the sacrifice to show their faith in Grace. That call is irrevocable.


Hope that helps stimulate thought.

Sometimes its easy to focus on one or two verses without considering the overalð message that the writer is trying to conver and tell the original audience. Its called the letter and not the spirit or intent. Paul talks of this error in 2 cor 3.

Yes, he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob for they looked forward to see the fulfillment of the seed promised through Eve. That is the "my covt made through Noah, Abraham etc. But he is not favor to the way of mosaic law, works, genetics etc. They had a temporary purpose of an antithesis of the Good way. Is 65:1,2 as quoted in rom 10


...
......







...

 

[Notrash]

that is easy! so let say you ask any practicing Jew now or then, ask them if David's first son " the one greater than solomon " died for or to redeem David and Davids kingdom to redeem the temple yet to be built.. ? everyone of them will tell you yes.
Chances are that was his deal to cover all of them in those familes and those lines.. for his purposes ! What if that was his covenant with them or David and his kingdom in order to bring salvation to the whole world also.. people who had no covenants or right to that salvation ( yes us ) , or just maybe there has always been ancient promises to ancient kings and families in ancient places from ancient times ? . to be finished or completed during greater kingdom David's age " the one greater than Solomon's " kingdom age.
it will all be finished during the 1000 year reign. how we and they will get there is the very definition of his GRACE. not any kind of free rides for sinners.
but a way by which we can find a way to him in our life times.
so what if Grace is not the right to sin. what if grace is the right to have a way to him if we want it.
now you can find David's son or you can find the son of David ..

but we know for sure that the future kingdom will be ruled by David's son who was Greater (older?) than Solomon! by which if he had not died both times for our/ David's sin . no one would be saved!

If Jesus is the root an offspring of David, he is also David.

In what way might Jesus be a 'son of David' if Jesse, David, Solimon were foreshadows of Father, Son spirit of father son recieved within believers (Solomon)

Is a "son" an image and fulfillment of the foreshadow i.e. the father if that image? Could Jesus be the 'son' of the second person of the tri-unity which Jesse/David/Solomon fireshadowed? Like Isaac was a foreshadow of THE son if God, Could David thus call the 'son' of his imagery LORD GOD?

How long was it from @ the end of Davids reign to the end of Jesus'teachings? What about the length from the begining and ending of Solomons reign to events in the first century??

In Rev, why are the thousand(s) years plural as if to say "the thousands"; (years)? How many measurements of 1000 did EZ measure?

...

 

[shturt678s]

Sorry Jack, Jesus Christ is God.

I have a J.W. neighbor that absolutely believes in God, ie, Jesus = / = God, yet he sincerly believes in totality. I believe as you that Jesus = God and man united thus I have a different God than my neighbor.

I cant distinguish between Jesus Christ of the New Testament, or God of the Old.

I distinguish YHWH of the O.T. from the N.T. Lord Jesus Christ (the Shema) ergo we'll have to agree to disagree again, ie, back to normal.

They are the same Spirit, same message, same God.

Spirit = God = same message = same God = / = Jesus, ie, God the Son = / = God the Father,

agreeing to disagree again - hey, we're seeing exactly where we agree to disagree

Salvation in the NT is no different than salvation in the OT, faith alone..

Almost had chest pains on this one, ie,

Old back to normal Jack

 

[shturt678s]

There is only one God.

I can assure you, the Muslims have a different god than me, ie, for sure!

I don't care how you have faith in him, so long as you have faith in God.

God's means of grace is only one way, ie, whatever that is? btw diverse means of grace to extreme diverse means of grace especially in today's time, agreeing to agree with you again

Jesus Christ is God.

Salvation, as it has always been, is by Grace through faith..

The Jews didn't understand this.

Old Jack

 

[Old Timer]

Again, the question you asked was about jacob and his 12 sons. Gen 49 points out that the influence and purpose of the lineage (the 12 sons)had their latter days at the coming of Shlloh (Jesus). Shiloh means Peace.

Jacob the individual still retains the implications and characteristics of the name Israel which is a name associated with children of God tbrough faith in him and his deliverence of the promised seed (his incarnation) Jacob/Israel (his changed name) is a foreimage of the change to occur through the adoption through faith in Christians.


Here is a question whos answer may help. Was/were Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel members if the national covt of moses? (National Israel) see deut 5:1-5


Second question. When Moses delivered the law from mt nebo, just before crossing jordan was that nation and covenant promised to have a latter end? See deut 31:29; 4:25,26; 32:20,29. It was also prophecied to have a time of captivity and return from captivity in preparation for the new heart and new way or covt in deut 29:15-30:19. Daniel declares the babylonian captivity to be this curse of yhe law of moses in deut 29:15-30:5. The curse of the law is not therefore the post 70 AD so called diaspora.
70 AD was the LATTER END, with 132-135 the double honor (Is 61) and where his arm was not put down in Is 10.

One of the liberties allowed by inductive study techniques is to substitute synonyms for greek word definitiins and see if it better fits what the author might be trying to convey. This occurrs in various different translatiins.

You continue to say that Israel is temporarily hardened till the fullness (you say full number) of gentiles have come in.

Supposing it could be read; Part of (remaining national Israel) (who were still in unbelief at that time) were temporarily hardened, reserved to come to faith and graft into the faith (and promise of Christ) that the forefathers pre-imaged. And it was prophecied that some of these would in 40-67AD come to emulating faith because of their jealousy of the fullness of Gods blessing they would see in those who they had considered to be NOT a people of God.

Pleroma (fullness) is used in the NT (and earlier in ch 11 to mean the filling and peace of Gods spirit, blessings and gifts in his children of adoption.

Ethnos is equall translated nations as 'gentiles'

Eisercome hs a tense of a continuously occuring past event. Thus, until the filling of God in the nations had alredy been and would continue. It was this filling that was prophecied to make some of those in 55 AD who originally disbelieved jealous unto emulation (faith) NOW in 55 AD as he emphasises in vs 23 & 31,32.

The persecuting jews of 60 AD who originally disbelieved were NOT neccessarily 'cast off' They migh yet come to their senses (not through apologetics,l ogic or reason) by jealousy of the freedom and joy they saw.

The irrevocable calling and election tben is not referring to and electiin and favor of the physical descendencies BUT an irrevocable call to leave the way of law or works or faith in their descendancies FOR Gods election of grace through justification and hope in Jesus.

The believers needed to refrain from reverting to the misaic covt under pressure (heb 10) just as any who would yet believe would have to leave faith in the sacrifice to show their faith in Grace. That call is irrevocable.


Hope that helps stimulate thought.

Sometimes its easy to focus on one or two verses without considering the overalð message that the writer is trying to conver and tell the original audience. Its called the letter and not the spirit or intent. Paul talks of this error in 2 cor 3.

Yes, he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob for they looked forward to see the fulfillment of the seed promised through Eve. That is the "my covt made through Noah, Abraham etc. But he is not favor to the way of mosaic law, works, genetics etc. They had a temporary purpose of an antithesis of the Good way. Is 65:1,2 as quoted in rom 10


...
......







...

You said yes, that God is the God of Jacob.. Although I get the feeling that you are speaking of Jacob alone and not his descendants.

Is that correct, that you mean that the God of Jacob only includes Jacob himself?

 

[random person]

A Summary of Harlot Babylon of Revelation 17-18
by Duncan McKenzie

This article is a summary of harlot Babylon found in Revelation 17-18. It summarizes about 70 pages from my book (The Antichrist and the Second Coming). The good news is you don't have to read 70 pages. The bad news is you will have to pay closer attention to the scriptural references to better connect the dots.

The motif of harlot (with only two minor exceptions) is used in the O.T. to represent God’s old covenant people going after the gods and ways of other nations (cf. Ezek. 16). When Revelation was written (c. AD 65) the other nation (the beast the harlot is riding on) was Rome. God’s covenant with Israel was liked to a covenant of marriage (Ezek 16:32), thus God’s old covenant people going after other gods is likened to an unfaithful or harlot wife (cf. Hosea 1-2). When God established the Mosaic covenant, He told Moses the following.

Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured… Deut. 31:16-17

Revelation 17-18 is showing this prophesied destruction of harlot Israel, God’s unfaithful old covenant people.

The book of Revelation is structured on the covenant curses that were to come on God’s unfaithful old covenant people when they broke the covenant, something they did in the ultimate sense when they had Jesus killed (cf. Matt. 21:33-45). God said He would bring four sets of sevenfold punishment on Israel for breaking the covenant (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28). These covenant judgments form the basis of the four sets of sevenfold punishment of Revelation (the seven seals, Rev. 6:1-17; 8:1; the seven trumpets, Rev. 8:2-10:7; the seven thunders, Rev. 10:3-4; and the seven bowls, Rev. 16:1-21). Revelation is showing God’s anger being poured out harlot Israel (the dwellers on the Land) as she is devoured at the end of the old covenant age (cf. Dan. 12:7 Rev. 11:17-18). God had said He would punish His unfaithful old covenant people at this time by bringing back on them the plagues of Egypt (Deut. 28:58-61); this is why a number of the punishments in Revelation are patterned after the plagues of Egypt (7 of the 10 plagues are represented, Rev. 9:1-3; 16:1-4, 8, 10, 13, 21). This background of the covenant curses forms the context in which one finds the judgment and destruction of harlot Babylon. The destruction of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 forms the climax of these covenant curses that were coming on the unfaithful dwellers on the Land (cf. Rev. 11:16-18).

The complete article: A Summary of Harlot Babylon of Revelation 17-18 | Planet Preterist

 

[Notrash]

You said yes, that God is the God of Jacob.. Although I get the feeling that you are speaking of Jacob alone and not his descendants.

Is that correct, that you mean that the God of Jacob only includes Jacob himself?

It's tough to know the minds of the descendants. Perhaps many knew that they would be the lineage through whom the seed promised to all mankind would come (through Eve) and perhaps they began thinking that they were a favored genetic linage for all time.

I would think the first generation under Joshua had a pretty good handle that their .ation was temporary but afterwards it waxed and waned.

After the regathering from Babylon, they began interpreting things in the OT to favir the continuation of the mosaic covt nation and their genetic or political pre-eminence EVEN though the prophets foretold their latter ends at the time of the coming of Shiloh, Messiah, the new prophet (deut 18) and the new covt. The new covt is played against the principles of the mosaic covt and of the Garden law. Jerþ31 says it would be NOT LIKE the covt made when he took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. Thus, we owe it paetly to ourselves to underztand the principles and characteristics of that covt to help support and clarify our understanding of the eveelaating covt.

Can YOU explain how the new prophet (Jesus) was to be a prophet like unto Moses as expressed in deut 18 and yet the nee covt was to be NOT LIKE the one made through Moses?

Back to your question.Abraham through Jacob were syrian "everymen" out of the cloud of humanity. Abraham was drawn out of Babylonian influence where Nimrod had proclaimed himself (or his son) as the fulfillment of the seed promised to Eve. He then set up ritualistic religiins to honor himself and subjugate the people.

PART of the context of Gids statement to Abraham was that hus covt with mankind (promised through eve to redeem people back to himself) would be made with and through Abraham and faith in the goodness of Life (not Nimrod and religion).

So as mentiined Abraham was an 'everyman as was Jacob. I think the idea of a favored race or peoples beyond the purpose if confirming and delivering the messiah, Shiloh, the seed promised to Eve; only developed later and perhaps after the babylonian captivity through what is called the babylonian Talmud and the rabiis interpretations. The scofueld bible notes of the last 100 yrs added to that falsity.

So to say or ask if God was only the God of Jacob and not the mosaic covt Jews wouldn't be quite accurate representatiin. In Rom 11:32 and Gal or rom 3:16 Paul says that all persons are counted in unbelief and in dusobedience to the law of faith rqually that he might have mercy on a.y of humanity through the favored way of the LAW OF JUSTIFICATION AND RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith in the Creator and his visitation to earth.

Thus are those who call themselves or called themselves jews part of humanity?? YES, So he is their God also; BUT he did not and does not bless, favor or abide with the racist, genetic, law seeking or works doing mentality or WAY. Paul says that they follow(ed) a way that is NOT good.in Rom 9 or 10. And he quotes Is 65:1,2 for that authority.

Thats part of what Paul us explaining in Rom 9-11. The electiin and the favor of the way of Grace and blessing through FAITH is was going to be confirmed and they would not be put to shame who trusted in Him... Ttust in the national law, or the genetics, or their religious works or the Rabis teachings in favor of thise things was NOT the way of relatiinship and experience with ones maker. Not only was it not the way of internal (or external) peace but it bred enmity against those who were displaying the way within tbeir lives and its ideologies and beliefs bred and breeds militant, religios or racist superiority over other humans.

That call back to faith in ones maker and in his approving, loving vusitatiion to all human life and away from faith in natiional favoritism, works of the law, genetics etc was irrevocable and without apology. To come to faith, they would and do need to come as a human "Everyman", like Abraham or Jacob, not as a 'jew or an unjew; but a human beloved of the creator.


For there is ni difference.....

and in ch 11:32; fir he has committed all peoples in dusobedience to the new way of righteousness by logical, reasoable faith in a lifemaker and his vusitation, tat he might have mercy on all humans equally through that law.


....

 

[Notrash]

Please take time to researc verses in these last posts out of respect if not curiosity.

 

[Shocker]

I have a J.W. neighbor that absolutely believes in God, ie, Jesus = / = God, yet he sincerly believes in totality. I believe as you that Jesus = God and man united thus I have a different God than my neighbor.



I distinguish YHWH of the O.T. from the N.T. Lord Jesus Christ (the Shema) ergo we'll have to agree to disagree again, ie, back to normal.



Spirit = God = same message = same God = / = Jesus, ie, God the Son = / = God the Father,

agreeing to disagree again - hey, we're seeing exactly where we agree to disagree



Almost had chest pains on this one, ie,

Old back to normal Jack

How is God different from Christ?

They are one in the same...


How is salvation attained in the OT? Faith.
How is salvation attained in the NT? Faith.

 

[Bible2]

random person quoted McKenzie in post 194:

The motif of harlot (with only two minor exceptions) is used in the O.T. to represent God’s old covenant people going after the gods and ways of other nations (cf. Ezek. 16).

Passages like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a "harlot" doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

Ezekiel 16:46 means the corrupt aspects of the harlot "sisters" Samaria, Jerusalem, and Sodom all arose from one, other mother, who would be the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, the "mother" of harlots (Revelation 17:5).

random person quoted McKenzie in post 194:

When Revelation was written (c. AD 65) the other nation (the beast the harlot is riding on) was Rome.

Putting aside the question of the dating of Revelation (c. 95 AD instead), that's right, in the sense that the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

random person quoted McKenzie in post 194:

Revelation 17-18 is showing this prophesied destruction of harlot Israel, God’s unfaithful old covenant people.

While the corrupt aspects of 1st century AD Israel are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Israel. For 1st century Israel just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Israel the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Israel just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Israel been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

random person quoted McKenzie in post 194:

Revelation 17-18 is showing this prophesied destruction of harlot Israel, God’s unfaithful old covenant people.

When Revelation's "Babylon" is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike the nation-state of Israel, which was found again as a nation-state in 1948 AD, after its destruction in 70 AD.

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to this 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

 

[shturt678s]

How is God different from Christ?

They are one in the same...[/QUOTE]

"They are One" "in the same" ie, We use realiter, and not hyoposrtasis, ie, in this sense "in the same" Next we use "Consubstantial (Co-essential) regarding His nature of divinity, and Jesus human nature, ie, Symbolum Nicaenum. Lastly we use the Athanasius Creed regarding "not the same," ie, the union of the three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), in one Godhead (state of being God) where all three ar "co-equal," "co-eternal," and "co-substantial." "not in the same sense."

How is salvation attained in the OT? Faith.

A trust in God's promise that is again centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ ("another Jesus" IICor.11:4) to come.

How is salvation attained in the NT? Faith.

A trust in God's promise that is again centered in the Genuine Lord Jesus Christ that came.

What is not so is Religious, Biblical, Christian faith is not different from faith in secular life in this respect; nor is true faith different from false faith in this respect. Satan produced faith in Eve by his lies which he dressed up as truth. Always, alsways somene or something impresses us as being genuine, true, right, reliable, in a word, as being trustworthy and so produces confidence, conviction; these are the essence of faith of course.

Old Jack, btw a first time 'serious post'

Appreciate you and your caring for sure

Sady when it's all said and done, we'll have to agree to disagree with all the former.

 

[interpreter]

In the Bible, a harlot is any Jewish or Christian nation that rejects God. That fits Russia, and Moscow sits on 7 hills and many seas.