Why is the Vatican and Catholicism superior?

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SpiritualAntiseptic

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probably. it dosen't matter though, I, like you, don't have to explain anything. It dosen't take a rocket scientist to see that Vatican I or II has done corruptable deeds. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." I totally agree that the Vatican is superior, So why can't you admit it has it's faults?

Yes Charismatic/Pentecostalism has it's faults, I know that and admit that openly.

That wasn't the issue. The issue isn't whether or not Catholics, Charismatic or Pentecostals have done wrong.

The issue was whether the Pope "redefined" doctrine... which was immediately changed to Vatican II redefining.
 
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Uphill Battle

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I think it is better to reveal exactly what is going on here.
do tell.

What your post is doing right now is playing rhetoric games. The vast majority of arguing on the internet isn't about hammering out the truth- it is about debating tactics and word games.
I agree. It's sad, really.

It is about 'besting' your opponent who disagrees with you. It has nothing to do with addressing a point that are substantive or not.
indeed.

Judging from your second paragraph, you either know you have nothing to say and were called out on it, or you have no interest in this- either way you are trying to 'gracefully' back out. If I don't want to post on a subject anymore, I just don't post. I don't create a post full of rhetoric and ad hominems and then try to back out by appealing to a sense of logos at the end of it.

first, lets start with what ad-hominem means. Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

since that isn't in any of your, or my posts, it's not relevant.

my motivation for my post as it is, is 1) I wasn't going to let your ridiculous claim slide by and 2) I really have no desire to get in to a Catholic vs. Protestant battle.


So here's the deal- I know the Vatican doesn't redefine doctrine. So I'm not going to back down. You are free to not post anymore if you wish- but don't think you can make claims that I know are total nonsense and get away with it. Since you brought up the second Vatican Council, you tell me how it redefined anything.

It redefined the role of the laity, the mass, and various other topics. Don't shift the goalposts, you said beliefs, not doctrine. I never said anything about doctrine. (Although I also don't believe that Catholic teaching is unchanged, as you do.)


A Brief History of Vatican II. (01-JUL-07) International Bulletin of Missionary Research

get the book, if you wish.

If I was interested in playing with rhetoric, I'd have this thing wrapped up at this point. I know you have nothing to say on this, because you originally said that the Pope redefines- and then pressed about it, you then bring up Vatican II- which tells me you have nothing specifically in mind. You are grasping at straws and thought Vatican II would somehow be an out for you.

VW: Pope Re-defines "hell"
Doctrine of the Papacy
Doctrine Changes


that, and the redefinition of Unam Sanctam, etc...

you can read the snippits if you wish. It's "lazy debate" because their just google searches. Again, I'm not interested in doing the cath prot hairpull. You could, of course, do that yourself, however, you wouldn't buy it any more if you did, than if I did, any more than I'll buy that Catholic doctrine is 2000 years consistant.
 
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2 King

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That wasn't the issue. The issue isn't whether or not Catholics, Charismatic or Pentecostals have done wrong.

The issue was whether the Pope "redefined" doctrine... which was immediately changed to Vatican II redefining.
never said it was :)

I was just pointing out that Catholics/Vatican are capable of wrong-doing. Which means Vatican had it's mistakes, especially in the past, if you research history that is.
 
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2 King

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uphill is right about the doctrine of the Papacy:


Difficult as had been the situation with which the Popes were confronted during the sixteenth century and the first half of the seventeenth century, when heresy was rampant throughout Europe, and when Catholic nations were obliged to fight for their very existence, it was not a whit more difficult or more critical than that created by the increasing and selfish demands of Catholic rulers, which confronted their successors during the age of absolute government. The Peace of Westphalia (1648), by giving official sanction to the principle of state neutrality, meant nothing less than a complete revolution in the relations that had existed hitherto between Church and State. So long as the Christian world was united in one great religious family, acknowledging the Pope as the common Father of Christendom, it was not strange that in disputes between princes and subjects or between the rulers of independent states the authority of the Pope as supreme arbitrator should have been recognised, or that his interference even in temporal matters should not have been regarded as unwarrantable.

But once the religious unity of Europe was broken by the separation of entire nations from the Church, and once the politico-religious constitution of the Holy Roman Empire was destroyed by the acceptance of the principle of religious neutrality, the Popes felt that their interference even indirectly in temporal matters, however justifiable it might be in itself, could produce no good results. Hence apart from their action as temporal sovereigns of the Papal States, a position that obliged the Popes to take part in political affairs, the whole tendency was to confine themselves strictly to spiritual matters, and to preserve harmony if possible between Church and State. This policy did not, however, satisfy the selfish designs of rulers, who had determined to crush all representative institutions and to assert for themselves complete and unlimited authority. Catholic rulers, jealous of the increased powers secured by Protestant princes through the exercise of supreme ecclesiastical jurisdiction, determined to assert for themselves a somewhat similar authority over the Catholic Church in their own territories. It was no longer the supposed inroads of the Church upon the domain of the State but the attacks of the State upon the rights of the Church, that were likely to disturb the good relations between Catholic princes and the Pope. These rulers demanded an overwhelming voice in all ecclesiastical appointments; they insisted upon exercising the Royal Placet upon papal documents and episcopal pronouncements; they would tolerate no longer the privileges and exemptions admitted by their predecessors in favour of clerics or of ecclesiastical property; they claimed the right of dictating to the cardinals who should be Pope and of dictating to the Pope who should be cardinals; of controlling education in their own dominions; of determining the laws and rules concerning marriages and matrimonial dispensations, and of fixing the constitutions of those religious orders the existence of which they were willing to tolerate.

Unfortunately in their designs for transferring ecclesiastical jurisdiction from the Popes to the crown the princes were favoured by many of the bishops, who were annoyed at the continual interference of Rome and who failed to realise that the king was a much greater danger to their independence than the Pope; by a large body of clerics and laymen, who looked to the civil authority for promotion; by the Jansenists who detested Rome, because Rome had barred the way against the speculative and practical religious revolution which they contemplated; by the philosophers and rationalists, many of whom, though enemies of absolute rule, did not fail to recognise that disputes between Church and State, leading necessarily to a weakening of Church authority, meant the weakening of dogmatic Christianity; and by liberal-minded Catholics of the Aufklarung school, who thought that every blow dealt at Rome meant a blow struck for the policy of modernising the discipline, government, and faith of the Church. The eighteenth century was a period of transition from the politico- religious views of the Middle Ages to those of modern times. It was a period of conflict between two ideas of the relations that should exist between Church and State. The Popes were called upon to defend not indeed their right to interfere in temporal matters, for of that there was no question, but their right to exercise control in purely spiritual affairs. It is necessary to bear this in mind if one wishes to appreciate the policy of those, upon whom was placed the terrible responsibility of governing the Church during the one hundred and fifty years that elapsed between the Peace of Westphalia and the outbreak of the French Revolution.

In the conclave that followed the death of Innocent X., Cardinal Chigi, who had been nuncio at Cologne, envoy-extraordinary of the Holy See during the negotiations that ended in the Peace of Westphalia, and afterwards Secretary of State, was elected, and took the title of Alexander VII. (1655-67). At first the people were rejoiced because the new Pope had shown himself so determined an opponent of that nepotism, which had dimmed the glory of so many of his predecessors, but at the request of the foreign ambassadors and with the approval of the cardinals he changed his policy after some time, brought some of his relatives to Rome, and allowed them too much influence. His election had been opposed by Cardinal Mazarin in the name of France, and throughout his reign he was doomed to suffer severely from the unfriendly and high-handed action of Louis XIV., who despatched an army to the Papal States to revenge an insult to his ambassador, the Duc de Crequi, and forced the Pope to sign the disgraceful Peace of Pisa (1664). Alexander VII. condemned the Jansenistic distinction between law and fact by the Bull, Ad Sanctam Petri Sedem (1665), to enforce which he drew up a formulary of faith to be signed by the French clergy and religious. He observed an attitude of neutrality in the disputes between Spain and Portugal, secured the return of the Jesuits to Venice, and welcomed to Rome Queen Christina of Sweden, who abandoned Lutheranism to return to the Catholic Church.


His successor, Cardinal Rospigliosi, formerly nuncio at Madrid and Secretary of State was proclaimed Pope as Clement IX. (1667-69). He was deeply religious, generous in his donations to the poor and to hospitals, and uninfluenced by any undue attachment to his relations. He put an end to the religious disorders that had reigned in Portugal since 1648, when that country seceded from Spain to which it had been united since 1580, and proclaimed the Duke of Braganza king under the title of John IV. Matters had reached such a crisis that many of the bishoprics in Portugal and the Portuguese colonies were left vacant. In 1668 after the conclusion of the Peace of Lisbon the Pope appointed those who had been nominated to the vacant Sees. Deceived by the false representations made to him from France, he restored the French bishops who had adhered publicly to the distinction between law and fact. He offered generous assistance to Venice more especially in its defence of Crete against the Turks. During his reign he canonised Mary Magdalen de Pazzi, and Peter of Alcantara.


On the death of Clement IX. the cardinals could not at first agree upon any candidate, but finally as a compromise they elected, much against his own will, Cardinal Altieri, then an old man eighty years of age. He was proclaimed as Clement X. (1670-76). Unable to transact much business himself he left too much in the hands of others, especially to Cardinal Paoluzzi. He encouraged and assisted the Poles in their struggles against the Turks, and resisted the demands of Louis XIV. concerning the Regalia. He canonised John Cajetan, Philip Benitius, Francis Borgia, Louis Bertrand, and Rose of Lima.
In the conclave that followed the demise of Clement X. Cardinal Odescalchi, against whom France had exercised the veto on a previous occasion, was elected and took the name of Innocent XI. (1676- 1689). He was zealous for religion, charitable to the poor, economic and prudent in the administration of the Papal States, anxious for an improvement in clerical education, and a strong opponent of everything that savoured of nepotism. His whole reign was troubled by the insolent and overbearing demands of Louis XIV. in regard to the Regalia, the right of asylum, and the Declaration of the French Clergy (1682), but Innocent XI. maintained a firm attitude in spite of the threats of the king and the culpable weakness of the French bishops. He encouraged John Sobieski, King of Poland, to take up arms against the Turks who had laid siege to Vienna, and contributed generously to help Hungary to withstand these invaders.
 
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tadoflamb

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I got the impression that there is confusion in all denominations. Confusion that needs to be cleared up.

Confusion spread by misconceptions, mainly via. fools who really don't know what they are saying, or have been mis-informed. Or by the fact that satan works through liars to spread fallacy throughout the Body of Christ and Christians alike.

I suppose you could make that case. For instance, I get different messages from the Catholics in my parish and what I hear from Rome. The beautiful thing is, in Catholicism, we have one deposit of faith which can be accessed by anyone interested. If I'm getting mixed messages at the local level, I can always look towards Rome to see what the Church really teaches.
 
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2 King

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I know better, but just for kicks... on what did the Vatican "deceive" many

The Catholic doctrine on Grace, round which such fierce controversies had been waged in the fifth and sixth centuries, loomed again into special prominence during the days of the Reformation. The views of Luther and Calvin on Grace and Justification were in a sense the very foundation of their systems, and because of that it was of vital importance that these questions should be submitted to a searching examination, and that the doctrine of the Catholic Church should be formulated in such a way as to make cavilling and misunderstanding impossible. This work was done with admirable lucidity and directness in the fifth and sixth sessions of the Council of Trent, but nevertheless these decrees of the Council did not prevent the theories of Luther and Calvin being propagated vigorously, and from exercising a certain amount of influence even on some Catholic theologians who had no sympathy with the religious revolt.

Ecclesiastical History profited largely from the Humanist movement which brought to light many new documents, and tended to awaken a spirit of scholarly criticism. The contention put forward by the Reformers, that primitive Christianity had been completely corrupted by semi-Pagan novelties during the Middle Ages, made it imperative on Catholic scholars to direct their attention to the practices and teaching of the early centuries. New editions of the writings of the Fathers were prepared by the Dominicans, Jesuits, and by the Benedictines of St. Maur. The attempt made by the Magdeburg Centuriators to justify Lutheranism at the bar of history called forth the Annales Ecclesiastici of Cardinal Baronius (1538-1607). These Annals dealt with the history of the Church from the beginning till the year 1198. The work was continued by the Oratorians Raynaldus and Laderchi, by de Sponde, Bzovius and Augustine Theiner. The History of the Popes was written by the Augustinian Panvinio (+1568) and by the Dominican, Ciacconius (+1599). Hagiographical studies were pursued by Surius (+1578) and by the Jesuit Heribert Rosweyde (1569-1629). It was the latter who first conceived the plan of publishing the Lives of the Saints in one series. He died without having done much except to collect an immense mass of materials. The scheme was, however, taken up by other members of the society, notably, John Van Bolland (Bollandus, 1596-1665), Godfrey Henschen (1601-81) and Daniel von Papenbroeck (Papebroch, 1628-1714). These were the first of the Bollandists, and the first volume of the Acta Sanctorum appeared in 1643.
 
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Albion

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I suppose you could make that case. For instance, I get different messages from the Catholics in my parish and what I hear from Rome. The beautiful thing is, in Catholicism, we have one deposit of faith which can be accessed by anyone interested. If I'm getting mixed messages at the local level, I can always look towards Rome to see what the Church really teaches.

That could well be considered a strength of the Roman Catholic Church which not all Christian churches have. Many of the others feel that not every last thing religious that a human can think up should be settled by an official action of the Church.

However, that strength--if is truly a strength--is the same one that is enjoyed by every cult. Certainty and unanimity are not virtues in this regard UNLESS the official position is the correct one.
 
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PT Calvinist

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The issue was whether the Pope "redefined" doctrine... which was immediately changed to Vatican II redefining.

I'm not sure "redefined" is the appropriate term in this matter...why? because it suggests heresy. I believe if the pope did anything close to "redefining" that it would have to be clearing up confusion in the Papacy.

I assure anyone who isn't Catholic. That the Vatican couldn't get away with heresy or much conspiracy unless the majority of the body was for it, and the one's against it were silenced.

I can always look towards Rome to see what the Church really teaches.
By this you mean?

Is there a Official Vatican/Catholic website that informs you what Rome is up to? or maybe a certain newsletter?

Could you be talking about a T.V broadcast?

However, that strength--if is truly a strength--is the same one that is enjoyed by every cult. Certainty and unanimity are not virtues in this regard UNLESS the official position is the correct one.

Here's where the difference comes in...
Since the Vatican is correct in it's belief. Then when people need answers, they turn to it, and it tells them how it feels.

I have realized that it's strength can become it's ultimate downfall. If they fail to clarify their message, then confusion spreads throughout Catholicism in a worldwide effect. And when it spreads out like that, it takes a long time to clear it up. For instance, Catholicism had to clear up the misconceptions of their theology back in the 16,000's. it took them more than 100+ years to get atleast 75% of it's theology clarified.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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*snip*
By this you mean?

Is there a Official Vatican/Catholic website that informs you what Rome is up to? or maybe a certain newsletter?

Could you be talking about a T.V broadcast?

Here's where the difference comes in...
Since the Vatican is correct in it's belief. Then when people need answers, they turn to it, and it tells them how it feels.
.
How boutz dis 1 :)

YouTube - vatican's Channel
 
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2 King

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Holy_Bannana stated:
That brings me to ask, who does teach that you have to be one of them to get to heaven?The Church of Rome has taught it.

A man responded:
I don't know what their current teaching is... I'm not Roman Catholic.

Google "Unam Sanctum 1302"

another man provided and excerpt from Catholic Doctrine:
...Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

is this true all you Catholics?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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OrthodoxyUSA

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"redefined."

There seems to be a lot of that. The biggest tool in the Christian toolbox.... "RE-DEFINE".

Better to just be rid of it.

Did you hear the one about how many Orthodox Christians it takes to change a lightbulb?

Forgive me...
 
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Uphill Battle

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CHANGE?!?!?

consistency.jpg
 
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2 King

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LittleLambofJesus

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so it "was" true, but they "Changed" it because of too much controversy?
I would say most of the RC vs non-RCs [on top of the "Sabbath"] threads always tend to be "controversial".
You would be surprised at the amount of threads that were closed for "cleanup" and never reopened :wave:
 
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Albion

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"That could well be considered a strength of the Roman Catholic Church which not all Christian churches have. Many of the others feel that not every last thing religious that a human can think up should be settled by an official action of the Church.

However, that strength--if is truly a strength--is the same one that is enjoyed by every cult. Certainty and unanimity are not virtues in this regard UNLESS the official position is the correct one."



Here's where the difference comes in...
Since the Vatican is correct in it's belief.
Well, if that were true and everyone agreed to it, then of course your observation would be correct.

I have realized that it's strength can become it's ultimate downfall. If they fail to clarify their message, then confusion spreads throughout Catholicism in a worldwide effect.
Seems to me that even when the message is clarified, there is dissension. All that I've said is a strength--in response to another post--is that having the official word can be considered a strength, especially if we don't get into whether or not it is the correct word on the subject. OTOH, many people would not agree with me there, seeing this as religious tyranny and very dangerous.

For instance, Catholicism had to clear up the misconceptions of their theology back in the 16,000's. it took them more than 100+ years to get atleast 75% of it's theology clarified.
I think I see your point.
 
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tadoflamb

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Well, if that were true and everyone agreed to it, then of course your observation would be correct.


Seems to me that even when the message is clarified, there is dissension. All that I've said is a strength--in response to another post--is that having the official word can be considered a strength, especially if we don't get into whether or not it is the correct word on the subject. OTOH, many people would not agree with me there, seeing this as religious tyranny and very dangerous.

I'm curious, Albion, where do you look as an Anglican to clarify matters of morals and faith.

I ask this with all sincerity. Thanks.
 
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