Why is rape not being taking seriously?

[Ana the Ist]

And as I said before, this is a red herring, as the public's reaction was not mentioned on my list, rather the reaction of the police, lawyers, court system, etc. A lot of this happens before a case is even brought to court, if it even is.



Do you think if that account was accurate they would admit it without trying to spin the facts to be more favorable to them?



I find it hard to see what could justify the kind of abuse she went through, unless you're claiming she was lying about significant parts of it.



What would she have to gain by lying about such a thing, after the fact, with no hope of reopening the case or pressing any charges?

"Do you think if that account was accurate they would admit it without trying to spin the facts to be more favorable to them?"

Can't we say the same about her? What if it only took a little detective work to disprove her rape story, don't you think that she might spin the facts of the investigation to make it seem like she was pressured into admitting she made it up?

"I find it hard to see what could justify the kind of abuse she went through, unless you're claiming she was lying about significant parts of it."

Reasonable evidence that she made up her rape accusation would justify their behavior in my eyes.

"What would she have to gain by lying about such a thing, after the fact, with no hope of reopening the case or pressing any charges?"

Tons of reasons...where should I start? Maybe she was in a relationship, cheated on her boyfriend by having unprotected sex, and got scared that she would get caught and her bf would leave her. That would explain the fears of stds and pregnancy being first and foremost in her mind and not the fact that she could've been killed that night. Would you like more reasons?

 

[Strathos]

Fame, attention.

Not saying she is in this particular case, but it is quite well known for people to fabricate stories to get their personal spotlight.

Which is why she posted it anonymously, right?

The only red herring here is the stuff you posted about the police, lawyers, and the court system. My statement and yours had nothing to do with any of that. Are you trying to switch the topic because you realize you're wrong? Here's my statement....

"The public in general is more inclined to believe a woman's accusations of rape before ever hearing any details regarding the incident."

Here's your response to that statement...

"That runs completely contrary to the vast majority of incidents I know of."

Then you went into an anecdotal example of the Stuebenville, Ohio rape case and the public backing up the accused and blaming the victim. I'm sure you didn't know, but Stuebenville is about as small as small towns get. Everyone knows everyone...so it really shouldn't be a shocker when the parents and friends and friends' parents all believe the locals and not the girl from another state. Regardless...

Steubenville has a population of over 18,000. Similar cases have occurred in Cole Harobor (population 25,000), Saratoga (population 29,000), Torrington (population 35,000), and Louisville (population over 750,000).

FYI, I grew up in a town with a population of around 16,000, and we certainly did not "all know each other", in fact the vast majority of students in the high school I attended were completely unfamiliar faces to me. Personally I knew about 100 people in town, my family I would estimate knew maybe 300 total.

I responded with an anecdotal case about the Duke lacrosse case and the public's perception of that case. You then responded with a bunch of statistics from RAINN that had to do with jail time....not public perception. I pointed out that the RAINN statistics regarding the conviction rate of those tried for rape basically proved the point I was making about the public generally believing the accuser and not the accused.

I also pointed out the deal with Mike Nifong, which you conveniently ignored.

"Do you think if that account was accurate they would admit it without trying to spin the facts to be more favorable to them?"

Can't we say the same about her? What if it only took a little detective work to disprove her rape story, don't you think that she might spin the facts of the investigation to make it seem like she was pressured into admitting she made it up?

Considering she reported it as an anonymous commenter on the internet, she would have no motive to gain anything by lying about it.

"I find it hard to see what could justify the kind of abuse she went through, unless you're claiming she was lying about significant parts of it."

Reasonable evidence that she made up her rape accusation would justify their behavior in my eyes.

Violating procedure by not letting her see a female detective when she asked for one (right after the incident occurred, so before any evidence could even be gathered)?

Asking her a bunch of questions implying she was lying, also, before any evidence could be gathered?

Not allowing her to consult a rape counselor? (illegal)

Denying her access to contraception?

Claiming she was lying because of their "instinct"?

"What would she have to gain by lying about such a thing, after the fact, with no hope of reopening the case or pressing any charges?"

Tons of reasons...where should I start? Maybe she was in a relationship, cheated on her boyfriend by having unprotected sex, and got scared that she would get caught and her bf would leave her. That would explain the fears of stds and pregnancy being first and foremost in her mind and not the fact that she could've been killed that night. Would you like more reasons?

So posting this account anonymously on the internet years after the fact would somehow prevent that? She said that only two people other than her family and the police were even aware it happened.

And all of the other similar cases she encountered as well?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which is why she posted it anonymously, right?



Steubenville has a population of over 18,000. Similar cases have occurred in Cole Harobor (population 25,000), Saratoga (population 29,000), Torrington (population 35,000), and Louisville (population over 750,000).

FYI, I grew up in a town with a population of around 16,000, and we certainly did not "all know each other", in fact the vast majority of students in the high school I attended were completely unfamiliar faces to me. Personally I knew about 100 people in town, my family I would estimate knew maybe 300 total.



I also pointed out the deal with Mike Nifong, which you conveniently ignored.



Considering she reported it as an anonymous commenter on the internet, she would have no motive to gain anything by lying about it.



Violating procedure by not letting her see a female detective when she asked for one (right after the incident occurred, so before any evidence could even be gathered)?

Asking her a bunch of questions implying she was lying, also, before any evidence could be gathered?

Not allowing her to consult a rape counselor? (illegal)

Denying her access to contraception?

Claiming she was lying because of their "instinct"?



So posting this account anonymously on the internet years after the fact would somehow prevent that? She said that only two people other than her family and the police were even aware it happened.

And all of the other similar cases she encountered as well?

"Steubenville has a population of over 18,000. "

And they have a high school population of about 700...that's about the size of my high school class and I knew everyone in it. Not to mention that the rapists played on the football team. I think it's fair to say they were well known in their community and that's the reason they gained support....not because the public is more likely to believe the rapist.

"I also pointed out the deal with Mike Nifong, which you conveniently ignored."

I was doing you a favor by ignoring it. When you try to paint a picture of a justice system that is against the accusers of rape, it helps to avoid pointing out situations where the prosecutor goes out of his way to put innocent men behind bars. Since you're insistent on making that mistake, I'll take this opportunity to point out there are plenty of cases where innocent men plead guilty to rape when they were pressured by the justice system to do so....it works both ways.

"Considering she reported it as an anonymous commenter on the internet, she would have no motive to gain anything by lying about it."

Not sure what you mean by this...she's telling a personal story on the internet. I think it's fair to assume she wants to be believed and she wants to paint herself in the best possible light. Of course she might lie about things, leave things out, or exaggerate things. If you notice at the end she addresses a "Jason" and by the context it's clear she posted the whole story to back up some point she was making....aka motive.

"Violating procedure by not letting her see a female detective when she asked for one (right after the incident occurred, so before any evidence could even be gathered)?

Asking her a bunch of questions implying she was lying, also, before any evidence could be gathered?

Not allowing her to consult a rape counselor? (illegal)

Denying her access to contraception?

Claiming she was lying because of their "instinct"?"

It's entirely possible that the police department had no female detectives. We don't know the size of the department, so it's really not uncommon for smaller cities/towns.

I don't know what you think happens when detectives gather evidence, but it typically starts with answering their questions....maybe she didn't understand that. Expect that anytime you report a crime.

She was allowed a rape counselor...just not at first. It's possible their procedure calls for getting a statement before getting her emotional support.

They didn't deny her contraception...the cop just didn't drive her there. That isn't his job, he's not a taxi service....and for good reason.

According to even her...they had EVIDENCE that she was lying!!! She just didn't want to "go into it" lol....gee, I wonder why??? Seems like a rather important part of the story to me. It's also another good reason to get the detective's side of the story.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Which is why she posted it anonymously, right?



Steubenville has a population of over 18,000. Similar cases have occurred in Cole Harobor (population 25,000), Saratoga (population 29,000), Torrington (population 35,000), and Louisville (population over 750,000).

FYI, I grew up in a town with a population of around 16,000, and we certainly did not "all know each other", in fact the vast majority of students in the high school I attended were completely unfamiliar faces to me. Personally I knew about 100 people in town, my family I would estimate knew maybe 300 total.



I also pointed out the deal with Mike Nifong, which you conveniently ignored.



Considering she reported it as an anonymous commenter on the internet, she would have no motive to gain anything by lying about it.



Violating procedure by not letting her see a female detective when she asked for one (right after the incident occurred, so before any evidence could even be gathered)?

Asking her a bunch of questions implying she was lying, also, before any evidence could be gathered?

Not allowing her to consult a rape counselor? (illegal)

Denying her access to contraception?

Claiming she was lying because of their "instinct"?



So posting this account anonymously on the internet years after the fact would somehow prevent that? She said that only two people other than her family and the police were even aware it happened.

And all of the other similar cases she encountered as well?

"So posting this account anonymously on the internet years after the fact would somehow prevent that? She said that only two people other than her family and the police were even aware it happened.

And all of the other similar cases she encountered as well?"

I believe I mistook this part. I thought you were asking why she would lie about the rape. You asked why she would lie about her reporting of the rape and it's investigation. I already answered that in my last post.

Much like you, she's assumed the victim was telling the truth without hearing the other side. More evidence that people are more inclined to believe the victim than the accused.

 

[yasic]

Which is why she posted it anonymously, right?

I lost which article this is in reference to somewhere in this thread, but speaking in general...

Having the post be anonymous does not make it more likely to be true at all I would argue quite the opposite: People are very well known to fabricate stories to support their political (or moral, religious, etc) position when posting in anonymity.

 

[Strathos]

"Steubenville has a population of over 18,000. "

And they have a high school population of about 700...that's about the size of my high school class and I knew everyone in it.

You must have been atypical then. My high school had no more than 500 students, I knew maybe 15 of them well, and maybe 50 of them by name. The same was true for basically everyone else I knew.

Not to mention that the rapists played on the football team. I think it's fair to say they were well known in their community and that's the reason they gained support....not because the public is more likely to believe the rapist.

And this is somehow a defense? Jocks and sports stars have a better chance of getting away with crimes because they are popular? You don't see anything wrong with that?

"I also pointed out the deal with Mike Nifong, which you conveniently ignored."

I was doing you a favor by ignoring it. When you try to paint a picture of a justice system that is against the accusers of rape, it helps to avoid pointing out situations where the prosecutor goes out of his way to put innocent men behind bars. Since you're insistent on making that mistake, I'll take this opportunity to point out there are plenty of cases where innocent men plead guilty to rape when they were pressured by the justice system to do so....it works both ways.

My point was that without the political machinations of that one attorney, the Duke case would not have reached the point and become the mess it did. Whereas the cases I am talking about have an entire system of people behaving in a controversial manner.

"Considering she reported it as an anonymous commenter on the internet, she would have no motive to gain anything by lying about it."

Not sure what you mean by this...she's telling a personal story on the internet. I think it's fair to assume she wants to be believed and she wants to paint herself in the best possible light. Of course she might lie about things, leave things out, or exaggerate things. If you notice at the end she addresses a "Jason" and by the context it's clear she posted the whole story to back up some point she was making....aka motive.

"Jason" was the name of the owner of the blog she posted the comment on. The blog entry the comment was originally posted on had Jason, the blog owner, complaining about certain people saying false rape accusations were more common than they are. In other words, he already agreed with her before she posted that, so there was no reason for her to make up a story to try to prove any kind of point to him.

It's entirely possible that the police department had no female detectives. We don't know the size of the department, so it's really not uncommon for smaller cities/towns.

Then they should have said so, instead of just denying her access to one.

I don't know what you think happens when detectives gather evidence, but it typically starts with answering their questions....maybe she didn't understand that. Expect that anytime you report a crime.

Not if they are framed in a way to do nothing but cast doubt on the testimony of the subject, rather than gathering information about the crime.

She was allowed a rape counselor...just not at first. It's possible their procedure calls for getting a statement before getting her emotional support.

They forced her through an "intense physical exam" before allowing her a counselor.

They didn't deny her contraception...the cop just didn't drive her there. That isn't his job, he's not a taxi service....and for good reason.

The hospital wouldn't provide it.

According to even her...they had EVIDENCE that she was lying!!! She just didn't want to "go into it" lol....gee, I wonder why??? Seems like a rather important part of the story to me. It's also another good reason to get the detective's side of the story.

She said it was "very flimsy" and mostly their "instinct." Unless you believe she is lying about several major points rather than just leaving detail out, I somehow doubt it. Besides, it was also mentioned that there was much physical evidence on her body supporting the case of sexual assault. So unless she was lying about that too...

I believe I mistook this part. I thought you were asking why she would lie about the rape. You asked why she would lie about her reporting of the rape and it's investigation. I already answered that in my last post.

Much like you, she's assumed the victim was telling the truth without hearing the other side. More evidence that people are more inclined to believe the victim than the accused.

She was the victim, the original post was an anonymous post by the victim.

I lost which article this is in reference to somewhere in this thread, but speaking in general...

Having the post be anonymous does not make it more likely to be true at all I would argue quite the opposite: People are very well known to fabricate stories to support their political (or moral, religious, etc) position when posting in anonymity.

So you don't accept the official statistics, imply the amount of false accusations must be higher, and accuse anyone of claiming they are lower based on any kind of testimony as lying. I think we're done here.

 

[Gadarene]

And this is somehow a defense? Jocks and sports stars have a better chance of getting away with crimes because they are popular? You don't see anything wrong with that?

Alternative explanation =/= defence

hth

So you don't accept the official statistics, imply the amount of false accusations must be higher, and accuse anyone of claiming they are lower based on any kind of testimony as lying. I think we're done here.

Might want to reread that one, champ.

 

[yasic]

So you don't accept the official statistics, imply the amount of false accusations must be higher, and accuse anyone of claiming they are lower based on any kind of testimony as lying. I think we're done here.

Tell me, are you outright lying, did you not read what I wrote earlier, or do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You must have been atypical then. My high school had no more than 500 students, I knew maybe 15 of them well, and maybe 50 of them by name. The same was true for basically everyone else I knew.



And this is somehow a defense? Jocks and sports stars have a better chance of getting away with crimes because they are popular? You don't see anything wrong with that?



My point was that without the political machinations of that one attorney, the Duke case would not have reached the point and become the mess it did. Whereas the cases I am talking about have an entire system of people behaving in a controversial manner.



"Jason" was the name of the owner of the blog she posted the comment on. The blog entry the comment was originally posted on had Jason, the blog owner, complaining about certain people saying false rape accusations were more common than they are. In other words, he already agreed with her before she posted that, so there was no reason for her to make up a story to try to prove any kind of point to him.



Then they should have said so, instead of just denying her access to one.



Not if they are framed in a way to do nothing but cast doubt on the testimony of the subject, rather than gathering information about the crime.



They forced her through an "intense physical exam" before allowing her a counselor.



The hospital wouldn't provide it.



She said it was "very flimsy" and mostly their "instinct." Unless you believe she is lying about several major points rather than just leaving detail out, I somehow doubt it. Besides, it was also mentioned that there was much physical evidence on her body supporting the case of sexual assault. So unless she was lying about that too...



She was the victim, the original post was an anonymous post by the victim.



So you don't accept the official statistics, imply the amount of false accusations must be higher, and accuse anyone of claiming they are lower based on any kind of testimony as lying. I think we're done here.

"You must have been atypical then."

Possibly. I considered my experience normal because so many seemed to share it. You had the same fifty students in every class? Or you just never learned the names/faces of the other students?

"And this is somehow a defense?"

As the witty gentleman from the other side of the pond pointed out, no it's not a defense, it's an explanation. I feel safe in saying people are generally inclined to believe the innocence of friends/loved ones/and those they like.

"Whereas the cases I am talking about have an entire system of people behaving in a controversial manner."

I don't see any controversy in the Stuebenville case. In the anonymous case, I've only heard one side of the story...and two detectives doesn't equal "an entire system."

""Jason" was the name of the owner of the blog..."

I misread the bit about Jason. Perhaps they're on friendly terms and she lied to bolster his point. It's anonymous, so it doesn't carry any weight or consequences of a lie told in real life. Not that hard to do...or imagine someone doing.

"Then they should have said so, instead of just denying her access to one."

How do you know they didn't? She never says either way.

"Not if they are framed in a way to do nothing but cast doubt on the testimony of the subject, rather than gathering information about the crime."

How do you know how they were framed? She didn't actually quote any questions asked of her.

"They forced her through an "intense physical exam" before allowing her a counselor."

Which she doesn't explain at all...neither the physical exam nor what was so intense about it.

"The hospital wouldn't provide it."

Did she ask? I honestly can't remember if she mentions that...does she have insurance? If nothing else, there last few points should demonstrated how much information is missing from the story and why another perspective would be useful. You're assuming a lot that was left unexplained by the storyteller.

"She said it was "very flimsy" and mostly their "instinct."

Is she a detective now? That statement is nothing but her opinion...we don't know if it's "flimsy" evidence or "instinct" (which isn't evidence at all) because she never mentions what the evidence IS!!! If it's so weak as she claims...why leave it out? Wouldn't including it only make her case stronger? I'm inclined to believe she left it out because it doesn't.

"She was the victim, the original post was an anonymous post by the victim."


Can you link the original? I couldn't find it.

"So you don't accept the official statistics, imply the amount of false accusations must be higher, and accuse anyone of claiming they are lower based on any kind of testimony as lying. "

No. I don't accept the official statistics. I'm not implying they are higher...I'm saying they.are. I'm absolutely certain that those statistics don't account for all the men falsely convicted and all the men who knew they were innocent, yet plead guilty to get a lighter sentence. Are you saying no such cases exist?

And I'm not even claiming your anonymous woman is lying...though saying that five times doesn't seem to get through to you. I'm saying I wouldn't believe her anonymous story based solely on her anonymous story....you shouldn't either.