WHY is pre marital sex a sin?

[seeingeyes]

Go for it .

Marriage itself has evolved - what it is, and how we govern it as a church and as a legal entity - so I'm interested in how to have an appropriate Christian sexual ethic in today's world.

Love God and love others - gives us what for a sexual ethic?

Let's start with what sex actually is. Or rather, with what it is not. Sex is not everything. It is not the be all, end all of the human experience, it is not the reason to get up in the morning, it is not the extent of marriage, nor the definition of marriage, it is not the definition of purity, nor of corruption.

Sex is also not nothing. It is not mere entertainment, like tennis or watching "friends", it is not just a habit, or just a physical reaction like burping after soda or having a craving for cheese.

Both the world and the church fall to each of these extremes on a regular basis. They both act like it's everything one minute, nothing the next. I reject both ideas, no matter who's preaching.

Sex is a bond. It is not as strong as a marriage bond, but it is also not as weak as a handshake (as evidenced by the fact that no one knows how many people they've shaken hands with, but they all know how many they've slept with, regardless of their views).

Sex is a physical drive, to be sure, affected by hormones and health and age and what have you, but it is unique among physical needs in that it requires another person to fulfill it. (I won't get into masturbation here except to say that if it were truly the same as sex, no children would ever be born. )

So sex is both a physical and a social drive that creates a small bond.

(I'll get to the theology in my next post.)

 

[Erose]

Wot?

I believe in God and sin.

I didn't say you didn't. Your question though is an attempt to remove God from the discussion.

I'm not presuming God doesn't exist.

your question does.

The analogy of the church as the bride of Christ is interesting. What do you think that analogy teaches us about sex before marriage? About sex before commitment?

one question for you. When can you receive the Lord's Supper, without committing sacrilege? Before or after being married to Him in Baptism?

 

[tall73]

Adultery = fornication.

Can you please better define what position you are arguing for? Are you only arguing that those who have sex before marriage with the same person they eventually marry are doing no wrong?

Or are you also arguing that the person who has sex with multiple people before marriage is doing nothing wrong?

Or are you making some other point?

 

[tall73]

your question does.

It does not. It presumes He exists, and asks us to consider what His reasoning is.

She perhaps wants us to reflect on why God did things the way He did, which is for our benefit.

 

[Hetta]

Can you please better define what position you are arguing for? Are you only arguing that those who have sex before marriage with the same person they eventually marry are doing no wrong?

Or are you also arguing that the person who has sex with multiple people before marriage is doing nothing wrong?

Or are you making some other point?

I am saying that fornication is adultery.

 

[Sayre]

It does not. It presumes He exists, and asks us to consider what His reasoning is.

She perhaps wants us to reflect on why God did things the way He did, which is for our benefit.

Correct - Thank you

 

[Sayre]

I didn't say you didn't. Your question though is an attempt to remove God from the discussion.

your question does.

one question for you. When can you receive the Lord's Supper, without committing sacrilege? Before or after being married to Him in Baptism?

My question presumes a god.

You may only take Communion after joining with him in baptism. But we never ask the government for a baptism certificate.

 

[tall73]

I am saying that fornication is adultery.

Alright. If it is primarily a lexical argument you are making, it would be an interesting discussion. Which underlying Greek word are you pinpointing here, as there are all kinds of English renderings. Alternatively, can you highlight the word as used in context in English so I could look at the Greek word.


And, just so I understand your view on the overall topic, if you wish to clarify, do you agree Paul said that sex with a prostitute was sin in I Corinthians 6, irrespective of whether the person was married?

 

[Erose]

It does not. It presumes He exists, and asks us to consider what His reasoning is.

She perhaps wants us to reflect on why God did things the way He did, which is for our benefit.

I think it can be taken either way. When you remove Scripture from the categories of usage, then you must resort only to reason.

 

[Sayre]

I think it can be taken either way. When you remove Scripture from the categories of usage, then you must resort only to reason.

No one is removing Scripture.

The question is why is it wrong - a question Scripture may or may not answer. But I want to know why it is wrong - not whether it is wrong.

 

[tall73]

I think it can be taken either way. When you remove Scripture from the categories of usage, then you must resort only to reason.

The poster did not remove Scripture from the discussion. In fact at one point they called for Scripture.

They called for the reason. They simply said what they are looking for is NOT texts that say it is forbidden. Presumably she is already familiar with those texts. Rather she is asking why it is forbidden.

 

[seeingeyes]

If we start from "sex is both a physical and social drive that creates a small bond", then it's just a matter of applying the command to love others as we must do in all other relationships.

Again, sex is unique in the sense that one needs someone else's participation, and this is where the "consenting adults" idea comes into the conversation. I think though, that more than mere "consent" is necessary to express love. Love is about doing what is truly best for the other person, so one would have to ask themselves, "is it in this other person's best interest to share this small bond with me?"

Often, the answer is "no". I don't think I've ever met a woman who didn't have at least one (consensual) sexual encounter that she would rather not recall. I speak of women generally here, because men generally seem less likely to "regret" a sexual encounter unless there are severe mitigating circumstances (like if she was his best friend's girl, or he found out later that she was his sister or something), but that's anecdotal, of course.

At any rate, sex without recognition of the bond that it brings tends to leave people regretting each other, or mourning the severing of the bond. So if we are to treat each other with love, then we should not cause them either regret or mourning.

That's my two cents.

 

[Erose]

My question presumes a god.

You may only take Communion after joining with him in baptism. But we never ask the government for a baptism certificate.

Which came first? The Sacrament of Matrimony or the Government's requirement for a marriage certificate?

Also I would recommend meditating on why the Eucharist is only for those Baptised. Your answer will be there.

 

[Sayre]

If we start from "sex is both a physical and social drive that creates a small bond", then it's just a matter of applying the command to love others as we must do in all other relationships.

Again, sex is unique in the sense that one needs someone else's participation, and this is where the "consenting adults" idea comes into the conversation. I think though, that more than mere "consent" is necessary to express love. Love is about doing what is truly best for the other person, so one would have to ask themselves, "is it in this other person's best interest to share this small bond with me?"

Often, the answer is "no". I don't think I've ever met a woman who didn't have at least one (consensual) sexual encounter that she would rather not recall. I speak of women generally here, because men generally seem less likely to "regret" a sexual encounter unless there are severe mitigating circumstances (like if she was his best friend's girl, or he found out later that she was his sister or something), but that's anecdotal, of course.

At any rate, sex without recognition of the bond that it brings tends to leave people regretting each other, or mourning the severing of the bond. So if we are to treat each other with love, then we should not cause them either regret or mourning.

That's my two cents.

Interesting again the analogy of Christ and his bride - and there is also a sealing there that has value and is to be honored. You can't have those benefits of being his bride without life long commitment.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

For those who believe that pre marital sex is a sin - can you please explain why?

I don't need verses claiming it is sinful - I want to know why it is sin. For example - is it sin because it harms someone in a very specific way? How is it inethical? Specifics required.

It is a sin because God designed sexuality for the purposes of union between two people leading to procreation. And, moreover, we can only fully give ourselves to one person; human sexuality cannot be parceled up and distributed like a product on the market or a piece of meat. Marriage liberates us to fully give and fully receive another human being in the most intimate way possible, and to do that outside of marriage not only trivializes that great gift, but can turn form a habit of objectification of the sexual "other" that one cannot simply turn off once they are married. Serial sexuality makes sex about our pleasure, and reduces our own total humanity- which includes wonderful, fantastic, pleasurable sex- as well as the humanity of our partners.

 

[Hetta]

And, moreover, we can only fully give ourselves to one person; human sexuality cannot be parceled up and distributed like a product on the market or a piece of meat.

What a shame for widows and widowers - not to mention anyone who has ever been raped. I guess that the victims of rape were 'given' to one person for life. Unfortunately, that person was their rapist.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

For those who believe that pre marital sex is a sin - can you please explain why?

I don't need verses claiming it is sinful - I want to know why it is sin. For example - is it sin because it harms someone in a very specific way? How is it inethical? Specifics required.

Virgins were a big deal back in the day..not so much now.. unless you're in the middle east or something.

God made it sinful to separate His people from the other nations in thought and idea of what God knows to be better for man.

 

[tall73]

What a shame for widows and widowers - not to mention anyone who has ever been raped. I guess that the victims of rape were 'given' to one person for life. Unfortunately, that person was their rapist.

Well in fact in some cases they were:

Deu 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.


However, the text does not indicate this is the ideal. It was not good for someone to rape another.

Moreover, Paul says some made themselves one flesh with a prostitute, but this was not the ideal.

If you have the choice, why not go with the ideal?

If you are raped, you are unfortunately a victim of the poor choices of someone else. You don't have a choice in that case.

I am not saying they would have to marry that person either. That was one solution in that time when women might not have other means to provide for themselves.

And the Bible plainly makes it possible for widows and widowers to wed again. And they become one flesh with that person as well.

What we don't see is the Bible endorsing sleeping around without the idea of a one flesh commitment being ok.


Are you going to flesh out your Fornication argument further? For instance, you could list all the instances of usage and demonstrate that they are indeed speaking of adultery.

Or you could explain why this is significant. Are you arguing that texts traditionally used to argue against sex outside of marriage are actually talking against adultery, and therefore sex before marriage (in whatever context) is permissible?

 

[Messy]

None of this says that pre-marital sex puts the soul at risk of damnation.

None of this says that pre-marital sex is wrong. You're extrapolating from scripture.

A person can rejoice in the wife of his youth ... that he had pre-marital sex with, and whose breasts he enjoyed then as now.

They didn't have to be stoned to death for it in the Old Testament, but they had to marry. I don't believe there is such a thing as premarital sex, that was one way of starting a marriage. It's only a sin if you don't marry. I read about a woman who was married and still felt guilty she had premarital sex with her husband, which influenced their sex while they were married. I think that is bad.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well in fact in some cases they were:

Deu 22:28 "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.


However, the text does not indicate this is the ideal. It was not good for someone to rape another.

Moreover, Paul says some made themselves one flesh with a prostitute, but this was not the ideal.

If you have the choice, why not go with the ideal?

If you are raped, you are unfortunately a victim of the poor choices of someone else. You don't have a choice in that case.

I am not saying they would have to marry that person either. That was one solution in that time when women might not have other means to provide for themselves.

And the Bible plainly makes it possible for widows and widowers to wed again. And they become one flesh with that person as well.

What we don't see is the Bible endorsing sleeping around without the idea of a one flesh commitment being ok.


Are you going to flesh out your Fornication argument further?

Notice that sex does not equal marriage, here.

Also notice that the injunction about him never being able to divorce her does not mean that she is required to marry him. That would still be up to her father. (Exodus 22)

And this would not apply to widows or women who had been divorced, either. (No virginity, no bride price.)

Also, if we are getting our mores from ancient Israel, we are doing a horrible job. lol