Why is Messianic Judaism considered Judaism if they believe in Jesus?

[Truthfrees]

You must keep every single law....some 600 of them....

Do you truly believe that Jesus kept "every single law...some 600 of them..."?
I hate to break it to you - He didn't.
He couldn't.
There are laws for women - as far as I know, He wasn't a woman.
There are laws for husbands - again, as far as I know, He wasn't married. There are laws for fathers, He wasn't a father.
There are laws for merchants, He wasn't a merchant.
In other words, laws that were not meant for Him, He did not/could not obey. What did apply to Him, He kept perfectly. What laws apply to each of us, individually, we keep to the best of our ability. It's what God commanded us to do, it's what the Holy Spirit helps us to do.

So, you see, your misguided idea that one must follow ALL 613 is just plum wrong, born of ignorance of the Law. It can be followed and is still valid today. The Father never stated that the Law is null and void, ever.
It is not written anywhere in the Bible that "believing in Jesus frees us from obeying God's commandments" - it just cannot be found.....
(Besides all that, obeying God's commandments is not a hard thing to do anyway.)

And it just amazes me when I think of all the punishments Israel suffered for not following the Law, for two thousand years prior to the birth of Messiah (and even afterward), exiles and captivities; the fact that Jesus lived and preached the Law before and during His ministry - and then God's gonna do away with it at the resurrection? It's no longer useful? Just a tool, a shadow? It doesn't compute. That idea is just irreconcilable, makes no sense at all!
That idea simply seems to state that God came up with a better idea, plan A didn't work. I don't think our God works that way.
I believe His plan A worked and is working just fine.....

Well said.

We Christians have never been taught these things. We're very sincere about YHWH, but badly misinformed on Torah.

For one thing, we've been taught Torah is obsolete, defunct, of little value, or even a hindrance to life since Yeshua.

What little we think we know about Torah (the Law), is by "revelation", rather than by history or tradition.

IOW, we Christians don't have a consistent history with Torah, and therefore hardly no remaining tradition connected with Torah.

We have no practical experience with Torah, so our "theories" on Torah are badly confused.

We misunderstand so much of the NT concerning Torah (YHWH's holy instructions) as a result.

The Jews are the only ones who've been living Torah since Moses received it from YHWH some 3300 years ago.

Going to shul and seeing Torah acted out, read, and explained each Shabbat, has made a huge difference to my understanding.

I tried learning Torah from books and this forum, but the best way to properly learn Torah is in community with those who live Torah, as did their parents, and grandparents, all the way back to the time of Moses.

Thank YHWH for miraculously saving Torah, Judaism, and Israel from the extreme attempts to erase it.



We Christians have also been taught that only we have the Holy Spirit, so we shouldn't listen to anyone else.

But we forget that Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Moses, Elijah, and every sincere lover of YHWH is moved upon by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we'd have no Hebrew scripture, no outstanding miracles and accomplishments before Yeshua.

Why are there so many outstanding miracles and accomplishments even today among the Jews?

They love YHWH as much as we do.

We came to YHWH through Yeshua, praise YHWH.

The Jews came to YHWH through YHWH before Yeshua.

We're standing in the same place before YHWH, we just have different understanding about Torah and Messiah.

But not nearly as different as one might think.

We have a lot more in common than we realize.

I'm seeing this as I read Oral Torah.

The words of Yeshua, Paul, John, Peter, are so similar to what's in Oral Torah and some of the ancient Jewish commentaries.

If we could spend more time discussing our similarities we'd begin to see this.

When we get caught up arguing about the differences between Jew and Christian, we miss the wealth of shared treasure, and the chance to gain "new-to-us" treasure.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Well said.

We Christians have never been taught these things. We're very sincere about YHWH, but badly misinformed on Torah.

For one thing, we've been taught Torah is obsolete, defunct, of little value, or even a hindrance to life since Yeshua.

What little we think we know about Torah (the Law), is by "revelation", rather than by history or tradition.

IOW, we Christians don't have a consistent history with Torah, and therefore hardly no remaining tradition connected with Torah.

We have no practical experience with Torah, so our "theories" on Torah are badly confused.

We misunderstand so much of the NT concerning Torah (YHWH's holy instructions) as a result.

The Jews are the only ones who've been living Torah since Moses received it from YHWH some 3300 years ago.

Going to shul and seeing Torah acted out, read, and explained each Shabbat, has made a huge difference to my understanding.

I tried learning Torah from books and this forum, but the best way to properly learn Torah is in community with those who live Torah, as did their parents, and grandparents, all the way back to the time of Moses.

Thank YHWH for miraculously saving Torah, Judaism, and Israel from the extreme attempts to erase it.



We Christians have also been taught that only we have the Holy Spirit, so we shouldn't listen to anyone else.

But we forget that Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Moses, Elijah, and every sincere lover of YHWH is moved upon by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we'd have no Hebrew scripture, no outstanding miracles and accomplishments before Yeshua.

Why are there so many outstanding miracles and accomplishments even today among the Jews?

They love YHWH as much as we do.

We came to YHWH through Yeshua, praise YHWH.

The Jews came to YHWH through YHWH before Yeshua.

We're standing in the same place before YHWH, we just have different understanding about Torah and Messiah.

But not nearly as different as one might think.

We have a lot more in common than we realize.

I'm seeing this as I read Oral Torah.

The words of Yeshua, Paul, John, Peter, are so similar to what's in Oral Torah and some of the ancient Jewish commentaries.

If we could spend more time discussing our similarities we'd begin to see this.

When we get caught up arguing about the differences between Jew and Christian, we miss the wealth of shared treasure, and the chance to gain "new-to-us" treasure.

 

[visionary]

That's a good way of putting it.

It's not for salvation or righteousness that YHWH gave us Torah.

He gave it to us for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

It's a holy lifestyle.

It's also a very wise lifestyle.

And that is probably why God calls it good for salvation and righteous living.

 

[Truthfrees]

 

[mercy1061]

So are we saying the same thing then?

I see YHWH lovers in the Jewish community and the Christian community.

When it sounds like someone's saying the Jews have fallen away from YHWH, and the Christians are faithful to YWHW, I know that's not true.

I also know many Christians have no interaction with the Jewish community, so their opinions are "theory", not fact.

IOW, when you start worshipping YHWH every Shabbat with Jews, and are blessed by the power of YHWH Who inhabits the praises of Israel, you know YHWH is with them.

"But You are holy, You who inhabit [dwell in, are enthroned on, take up residence in] the praises of Israel." - Psalm 22:3

Yes indeed

 

[Truthfrees]

Yes indeed

It is an awesome experience to be sure.

 

[God's Child]

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


I am hesitantly reopening this thread after a clean up.

As a reminder, there is this:

New MJ SOP- Messianic Statement of Purpose

It includes:
​

We consider Messianic Judaism to be a completely valid form of Judaism. And although there are different expressions of Messianic Judaism, we believe Messianic Judaism; a Judaism committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embraces the covenantal responsibility of life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant, to be the true expression of Judaism that the scriptures and the God of Yisrael intended.

We strongly affirm the uniqueness and centrality of Yeshua as Messiah, but we avoid defining ourselves in contrast with traditional Judaism. We maintain a supportive stance toward Jewish history and the current Jewish community, even as we disagree with it in our view of Yeshua. We encourage learning Jewish history and values.

Posts need to comply with the SOP of this congregational forum
​

 

[lori milne]

MOD HAT I am hesitantly reopening this thread after a clean up. As a reminder, there is this: New MJ SOP- Messianic Statement of Purpose It includes: Posts need to comply with the SOP of this congregational forum

👍

I like it
I my self am a Christian
But I have been learning a lot about being completely accountable to sin vs once
saved always saved
And christanese hyper grace or cheep grace
I have always felt we all are accountable for are sin and recently realized I was wrong but still needed to search for the truth !!
Any scripture are gold to me in regards to falling from grace or Paul's writings assuming you have any opinion in any if this!
God bless
sister in Christ

 

[Grafted In]

I'm sure that I've been considered contentious here in the past. But please understand me when I say that shortly after becoming a born again Christian Jesus Christ lit a fire in my heart, a deep love for the Jewish peopleI, both Observant, Messianic. And secular as well. I have tried to convince all of my Christian friends that, contrary to what an amazing number of them have been taught, that we are to love and pray for the Jewish people because God loves them and chose them as a conduit to reach all people's of every faith. As stated in NT Scripture "For unto them were given the oracles of God". I have very actively sought teaching from Jews who have come to know Jesus Christ as the Messiah, as I know they have a greater understanding of Scripture and of Jesus. It has always frustrated me that so little attention is given to the wealth of teaching that Messianic Jews offer. My love of such things is often taken as confrontational by gentiles believers. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times I been told that I need to stick with NT teachings because the OT is no longer of use, that it is just a book intended for Jews. I find this extremely frustrating as well as sad that my gentile brethren have been so blinded by teaching that lack real understanding of The Truth. I've given booklets written by Zola Levitt to more people than I can count. Some show limited interest. Some seem to get as excited as I did when I first came across Zola in the very early 80s. But most turn up their nose or roll their eyes.
I WANT to learn from you. I WANT to exchange thoughts and ideas and revelations we've all received from God. I WANT to share my deap love for Jewish people everywhere. But when I came here I was met with what seemed to be intolerance for my thoughts and beliefs and those that I posted. I found this very disheartening. I thought the love was only one way, that my faith was not well received. Perhaps it was simply miscommunication or differences in terminology but there seemed to be a wall between me and Messianic Jews. I would give most anything to breach that wall and communicate with you on an equal level. I do not know if I am considered lost in your opinions.....that I am without the Holy Spirit, but I cannot go back and be born into a Jewish family. I am a gentile. A gentile that God has given a deep love for you.
Of course we have differences. For one I do not share your view that The Law can be keep. I do believe once we are saved that God places in us a desire to be obedient, but I believe we will always fall short of this, as I mentioned before, until we are changed.
Perhaps there are a great number of Jewish believers on this website that do not share your beliefs about that. I have yet to find evidence that there are.
I hope this post helps clear up some misunderstandings and perceived intent there may exist about me. Bill

 

[mercy1061]

I'm sure that I've been considered contentious here in the past.

You have not shown any "contention" toward me. You have asked questions to me in the past, but I am sorry that I did not answer you. I was having a discussion with someone else that kind of distracted me for a little while. However, it would help that you would attempt to become Torah observant in a Messianic Judiasm forum if you are not already. This way we can have some common ground.

But please understand me when I say that shortly after becoming a born again Christian Jesus Christ lit a fire in my heart, a deep love for the Jewish peopleI, both Observant, Messianic.

This is good. The more specific questions you ask, the more specific I can answer you. You kindly said earlier that you did not understand my position; now I will kindly attempt to explain my position to you. I must warn you, it may take some time to explain, I did not learn what I know in a few minutes, it took many, many years of studying/observing Torah. It is like you look at the many stars, and you may try to count them, but you say it is impossible to count them, but G-d told Abram to count the stars to number his descendants. Scientists today continue to count the stars to no end, so don't stop counting the stars in heaven, although you complain that there are too many to count.

And secular as well. I have tried to convince all of my Christian friends that, contrary to what an amazing number of them have been taught, that we are to love and pray for the Jewish people because God loves them and chose them as a conduit to reach all people's of every faith. As stated in NT Scripture "For unto them were given the oracles of God". I have very actively sought teaching from Jews who have come to know Jesus Christ as the Messiah, as I know they have a greater understanding of Scripture and of Jesus.

This is also good that you know this.

It has always frustrated me that so little attention is given to the wealth of teaching that Messianic Jews offer. My love of such things is often taken as confrontational by gentiles believers. I cannot begin to tell you the number of times I been told that I need to stick with NT teachings because the OT is no longer of use, that it is just a book intended for Jews. I find this extremely frustrating as well as sad that my gentile brethren have been so blinded by teaching that lack real understanding of The Truth. I've given booklets written by Zola Levitt to more people than I can count. Some show limited interest. Some seem to get as excited as I did when I first came across Zola in the very early 80s. But most turn up their nose or roll their eyes.
I WANT to learn from you. I WANT to exchange thoughts and ideas and revelations we've all received from God. I WANT to share my deap love for Jewish people everywhere. But when I came here I was met with what seemed to be intolerance for my thoughts and beliefs and those that I posted. I found this very disheartening. I thought the love was only one way, that my faith was not well received. Perhaps it was simply miscommunication or differences in terminology but there seemed to be a wall between me and Messianic Jews. I would give most anything to breach that wall and communicate with you on an equal level. I do not know if I am considered lost in your opinions.....that I am without the Holy Spirit, but I cannot go back and be born into a Jewish family. I am a gentile. A gentile that God has given a deep love for you.

Yeshua told Pharisee Nicodemus that he must be born again, Pharisee Nicodemus ask Yeshua must he go back into his mother's womb. Yeshua answers, "Yes indeed".

Of course we have differences. For one I do not share your view that The Law can be keep. I do believe once we are saved that God places in us a desire to be obedient, but I believe we will always fall short of this, as I mentioned before, until we are changed.
Perhaps there are a great number of Jewish believers on this website that do not share your beliefs about that. I have yet to find evidence that there are.
I hope this post helps clear up some misunderstandings and perceived intent there may exist about me. Bill

John 3
Nakdimon said to him, “How can a grown man be ‘born’? Can he go back into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?” 5 Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[BukiRob]

I dont understand why Messianic Jews are considered Jews if they believe in the New Testament and follow Jesus. Im not arguing that theyre not Jews, Im just asking why are they considered Jews if they practice Christianity.

They arent practicing Christianity as you define it at all. They are Jews who attend a JEWIS Synagogue on Sabbath. Most of them have tradtional, conservative JEWISH services. The shema, amidah, mourner's kaddish the procession of the Torah, the reading of the Torah ALL of them are identical as to what you would see in a traditonal, conservative jewish synagogue service
The only difference is that they believe that Yeshua was the promised Messiah of Israel.

My uncle and sister have both said it doesnt make sense that you could practice two religions (Judaism and Christianity) at the same time. While Im open minded about this topic and dont deny that Messianic Jews and Christians, Im asking-what makes them Jewish if theyre Christian?

This is a very confusing subject.

I assume many Messianic Jews are ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity. Jewish is an ethno religious group, and you can be a Jew without practicing Judaism. There are atheist and agnostic Jews, for example. Therefore, the idea that a Jewish person can be a Christian makes sense, but it gets more complicated.

There are Messianic Jews who arent even ethnically Jewish. Im Italian, and I have some Messianic Jews in my family. Ive read that many Messianic Christians arent ethnic Jews either.

So what makes those Christians Jewish, if they arent Jewish by ethnicity? By religion, they believe in Jesus, and while I guess some Jewish sects view Jesus as a good man or even a prophet, overall-Jewish theology views Christ as one of the many false messiahs.

You are making all kinds of unfounded suppositions here. I cant speak to your anecdotal evidence. I can tell you definitively that the messianic synagogue I attend is full of Jews who were raised in Jewish families and several of them were raised as OBSERVANT Jews.

Additionally, you insist on this false supposition that these are people who are practicing Christianity and this is NOT true. Christianity has all but stripped any Jewishness out of Messiah. Christian's in large part have nothing to do with Torah, Torah observance or the feasts of Adonai. Messianic believers do... Messianic believers believe that the Mosaic Law is largely for the believer and follower of Messiah. Mosaic Law is NOT Rabbinical Law which is largely based off tradition some of which directly conflicts with the decree's of Adonai. Yeshua is the Cohen gadol and as such, has replaced the earthly Conahim.

There are some people who ethnically have no connection to Hebrews like the Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews have (those 2 groups are related to Hebrews), and some Jewish converts come from a variety of races and ethnicity (Beta Israel Ethiopian Jews, Indian and Iranian Jews, Chinese and Japanese Jews).

But those Jewish groups, despite converting to the religion, practice Judaism and arent considered Christians. What makes people who have converted to Messianic Judaism (a Christian sect) Jews, if they arent Jewish ethnically, and they do believe in Christianity's belief in Jesus?

First and foremost they DO NOT practice "Christianity" That is arguably the single biggest fallacy about messianic Judaism.

I cant speak for the entire movement but I can speak about the synagogue that I attend. For 95% of the shabbot service you will not see any difference between what occurs at the synagogue I go to and a traditional, conservative synagogue.

Messianic Judaism has far, far, far more in common with conservative Judaism than it does Evangelical Christianity.

Messianic Judaism in its simplest form... Open the book of Acts and read about the body of believers in JERUSALEM who believed that Yeshua was the promised Messiah of Israel and how they lived and worshiped... as JEWS in Jersusalem AS A PART OF THE TEMPLE...

Scripture tells us that originally it was considered a sect of Judaism and was called either the sect of the Nazarene or The Way....

Gentiles in Rome were called Christians later on after the revolt against Rome that led to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.... but from Messiah's ascension until then (roughly 35 years of time) Believers were overwhelmingly JEWS and Overwhelmingly in and around Jerusalem...

 

[BukiRob]

Whether or not I honor the Law is no one's business but God's.

In this, I feel no compunction to post an answer "as pleasing men." In this case; you.

Fact is you are making the same mistake the Israelites made some two thousand years ago. Isaiah prophesied the Messiah would be taken as not fitting in with the status quo....

He finally showed up; sure enough did not appear to fit in; was rejected; in fact; was crucified...

Now, here you are - Mr Torah keeper himself dictating the terms of your accepatnce of someone.

Sorry, fella, but you did not die that others might live; you were in fact concluded a sinner just like me.

I owe you and your status quo notion no proof one way or the other as to what my relationship is with the Father. His Son's death on OUR behalf was good enough for the Father, and witnessed by the Spirit He has placed me into His Son by.

You want it; there it is - ALL the testimony I owe you and your "show me how holy you are and I'll accept you" notions.

In short, if my posts hold no value to you then do yourself a favor and ignore them.

"Ye are straightened in your own bowels [seat of the emotions] not in us."

No offence taken, none intended, but none of us have a right to misjudge, "another Man's servant."

Respectfully...

Yeshua was rejected because he exposed sin. He railed against the teachers of the law because they were teaching traditions of man ABOVE the law...


The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to [d]be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, [e]given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

That is a far, far cry from being obedient to what is in scripture.

This issue is the lie of ignoring Torah because "Im saved by grace and the law is nailed to the cross..."

Yes, Yeshua, THE LIVING TORAH was nailed to the cross and YOUR and MY OBLIGATION OR DEBT was nailed there because he died and paid my full penalty... that however does NOT nullify the decree's of G-d the Father... because my debt is satisfied it DOES NOT mean that I can simply do whatever I want living in disobedience... and rebel against his decree's, ignore my Fathers appointed times....

 

[BukiRob]

You must keep every single law....some 600 of them....

Do you truly believe that Jesus kept "every single law...some 600 of them..."?
I hate to break it to you - He didn't.
He couldn't.
There are laws for women - as far as I know, He wasn't a woman.
There are laws for husbands - again, as far as I know, He wasn't married. There are laws for fathers, He wasn't a father.
There are laws for merchants, He wasn't a merchant.
In other words, laws that were not meant for Him, He did not/could not obey. What did apply to Him, He kept perfectly. What laws apply to each of us, individually, we keep to the best of our ability. It's what God commanded us to do, it's what the Holy Spirit helps us to do.

So, you see, your misguided idea that one must follow ALL 613 is just plum wrong, born of ignorance of the Law. It can be followed and is still valid today. The Father never stated that the Law is null and void, ever.
It is not written anywhere in the Bible that "believing in Jesus frees us from obeying God's commandments" - it just cannot be found.....
(Besides all that, obeying God's commandments is not a hard thing to do anyway.)

And it just amazes me when I think of all the punishments Israel suffered for not following the Law, for two thousand years prior to the birth of Messiah (and even afterward), exiles and captivities; the fact that Jesus lived and preached the Law before and during His ministry - and then God's gonna do away with it at the resurrection? It's no longer useful? Just a tool, a shadow? It doesn't compute. That idea is just irreconcilable, makes no sense at all!
That idea simply seems to state that God came up with a better idea, plan A didn't work. I don't think our God works that way.
I believe His plan A worked and is working just fine.....

What makes it even more astounding is most people dont even know who Yeshua really is... and when you know who he really is it is utterly and completely IMPOSSIBLE for the Torah to be null and void....

Yeshua states in John... I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but by me....

Ask any Rabbi if the Torah is the way,


truth

and

life... and he will 100% of the time tell you YES....


Yeshua IS the living Torah... as such, the very idea that HE/IT would become null and void is absolutely absurd...

Furthermore, the fact that Messiah will TEACH THE NATIONS to observe the LAW and to OBSERVE the FEAST DAYS in the Mellinium is further proof that there is absolutely NO WAY that Torah is not for the believer of today... utterly, completely, totally impossible!

 

[mercy1061]

👍

I like it
I my self am a Christian
But I have been learning a lot about being completely accountable to sin vs once
saved always saved
And christanese hyper grace or cheep grace
I have always felt we all are accountable for are sin and recently realized I was wrong but still needed to search for the truth !!
Any scripture are gold to me in regards to falling from grace or Paul's writings assuming you have any opinion in any if this!
God bless
sister in Christ

Grace and truth is found inside Torah.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua's answer to the question "how does one receive eternal life?" is, look and do what is required of you found in the words of Torah. His answer did not include "just say the words "I believe" and know, that I am your Messiah"

 

[visionary]

A few hours before Yeshua was betrayed He stated, "If you love me, ________________." And we all know that everyone here wants to show Him love.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeshua's answer to the question "how does one receive eternal life?" is, look and do what is required of you found in the words of Torah. His answer did not include "just say the words "I believe" and know, that I am your Messiah"

Right on, vis.

 

[yesyoushould]

So since we all know, by way of the word for proof, how come some still cling onto the division of believers in God by way of flesh?

 

[yesyoushould]

Can you honestly say you keep every law? I can.