Why is Christianity so confused?

[Steve Petersen]

Whether you accept the truth does not have bearing on its being true.

Same applies to you.

 

[sculleywr]

Same applies to you.

The difference is I can show that my Church has been there from the beginning. Given you claim non-denominational, you can't show it more than, what? a century ago? at most?

 

[Steve Petersen]

The difference is I can show that my Church has been there from the beginning. Given you claim non-denominational, you can't show it more than, what? a century ago? at most?

Don't really care. Historically interesting but not germane to a discussion about truth.

 

[sculleywr]

Don't really care. Historically interesting but not germane to a discussion about truth.

Actually, yes it is, because the Truth was delivered ONCE, for ALL the Saints (Jude 3). Why should I believe that your church somehow discovered the Truth when the Truth was already delivered. If the Church strayed, even for one SECOND, then the Scripture is completely useless because it's all about a failed prophet.

 

[Wordkeeper]

God made people to be teachers. Scripture also says that. So is it a contradiction? Or are we not to call teacher the persons who God makes a teacher?

I have heard His voice. It's why I am Orthodox. I went to the Church that never changed its teaching for any reason

Quote
Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologeticphilosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematicianand physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62).[1] It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or that he does not. Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).[2]

Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia

If you're right, my view is just extra effort. If I'm right, it's gnashing of teeth for you.

The proscribing of the rule of rabbi was to avoid low fidelity to the original material. Chinese whispers describes the phenomenon, where the content of the communication changes with every transmission.

That's why Jesus taught the doctrine of asking for bread directly from the Father.

On the subject of bread, as a test case, what is the theme that winds through Scripture regarding food and drink from heaven?

John 6
32Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

Isaiah 55
1Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

......
The church did not stray after the apostles died. Even during their ministry, the apostles fought heresy in the new churches.

BTW, what is THE CALL?

Hint
This is related to the Isaiah passage:

Matthew 25
8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9“But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10“And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11“Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13“Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

 

[SolomonVII]

Christianity is not a political religion. to the extent that belief has been able to be enforced by higher authorities, Christianity has been fairly unified at certain places and certain times.
Rightly, Christians have rejected political Christianity. Politics are tangential to Christianity, and even an anathema to its goals. Jews expected a political messiah uniting the nation of Israel. Israel is specifically political, but Jesus notes that his kingdom is not of this world.
Political unity is of this world. Political religion in theology simplifies faith into a formula required for all to believe.
A personal relationship with God without a name on the other hand is wide, wide open. Each and every Christian, to the extent that they relate with God, relate to God in their own way. And conversely, God relates to each and every one of us, to the extent that we let him in, in ways that are unique to each and every one of us.
It is the expectations that we bring that God interacts with others the way he does with each of us personally, that may cause the confusion. People often have trouble accepting that our own way of interacting with God ought not to be the standard on which all others are judged.

Standards are wonderful institutionally. They define the parameters of society. They are useful political devises.
But Christianity is not a political tool. To the extent that it has been, it is no longer really Christianity. Christianity is a personal relationship with god in the person of Jesus Christ, indwelling in the hearts of each an every Christian as the Spirit of Christ.
This is as fluid and as myriad and as idiosyncratic and as unique to the experiences of each and every one of us as anything could ever be.
We of course touch down with each other. We share verses and rituals and sacraments with each other. We share the body of Christ with each other in a myriad of ways.
But ultimately, God is a unique experience for each and every one of us. It is not being able to accept that, and the desire to create Christianity in a political instrument that has a hard time accepting the myriad of unique personal relationship that is Christianity as something other than a confused cacophany.

 

[sculleywr]

Quote
Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologeticphilosophy devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematicianand physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62).[1] It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or that he does not. Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas they stand to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).[2]

Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia

If you're right, my view is just extra effort. If I'm right, it's gnashing of teeth for you.

The proscribing of the rule of rabbi was to avoid low fidelity to the original material. Chinese whispers describes the phenomenon, where the content of the communication changes with every transmission.

That's why Jesus taught the doctrine of asking for bread directly from the Father.

On the subject of bread, as a test case, what is the theme that winds through Scripture regarding food and drink from heaven?

John 6
32Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

Isaiah 55
1Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

......
The church did not stray after the apostles died. Even during their ministry, the apostles fought heresy in the new churches.

BTW, what is THE CALL?

Hint
This is related to the Isaiah passage:

Matthew 25
8“The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9“But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’ 10“And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. 11“Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’ 12“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13“Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

The church strayed if what you are teaching is what the apostles taught, because it can't be found in any of the teachings of Christians since.

Tell me, why should I trust you rather than the people who knew the apostles and believed their faith so strongly they died for it?
If your understanding is so obvious, I guess the real reason nobody believed as you so is because everyone since the apostles was just stupid, right?

Or perhaps they had it right and you're over complicating things just like the Gnostics.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The church strayed if what you are teaching is what the apostles taught, because it can't be found in any of the teachings of Christians since.

Tell me, why should I trust you rather than the people who knew the apostles and believed their faith so strongly they died for it?
If your understanding is so obvious, I guess the real reason nobody believed as you so is because everyone since the apostles was just stupid, right?

Or perhaps they had it right and you're over complicating things just like the Gnostics.

Non sequitur. Not germane again to the topic which is discussing why so much confusion exists in Christianity. It was expected. Paul warned about the wolves who would ravage the flock.
....

You want someone to teach that the teachings of all men are false.

Who will listen to the teacher then?

Followed by his teaching that the only teaching is directly from God.

Which teaching is again nullified by his first teaching.

Bottom line the Bible teaches to ask God for revelation.

Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

 

[sculleywr]

Non sequitur. Not germane again to the topic which is discussing why so much confusion exists in Christianity. It was expected. Paul warned about the wolves who would ravage the flock.
....

You want someone to teach that the teachings of all men are false.

Who will listen to the teacher then?

Followed by his teaching that the only teaching is directly from God.

Which teaching is again nullified by his first teaching.

Bottom line the Bible teaches to ask God for revelation.

Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

Scripture commands us to look for guidance and to find what was revealed one time. It won't be revealed again because God preserved it. The correct interpretation of the Bible was already revealed. You aren't special. You don't get Revelation that wasn't given in the first century.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Scripture commands us to look for guidance and to find what was revealed one time. It won't be revealed again because God preserved it. The correct interpretation of the Bible was already revealed. You aren't special. You don't get Revelation that wasn't given in the first century.

The one time is the New Testament.

Also prove that the Gospel is not God's command, previously overlooked, but now enforced, to stop serving mammon and begin to serve God, meta noia, change loyalty, wrongly translated as repent.

Acts 17

30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”​

 

[Wordkeeper]

Actually, yes it is, because the Truth was delivered ONCE, for ALL the Saints (Jude 3). Why should I believe that your church somehow discovered the Truth when the Truth was already delivered. If the Church strayed, even for one SECOND, then the Scripture is completely useless because it's all about a failed prophet.

Jude
1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept fora Jesus Christ:

2Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written aboutb long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lordc at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”d 10Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”e 16These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

A Call to Persevere

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.”19These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22Be merciful to those who doubt;23save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.f

Doxology

24To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

WHAT IS THE TRUTH ONCE DELIVERED?

WHAT IS THE OPPOSITE BEING TAUGHT BY THE FALSE BELIEVERS?

 

[sculleywr]

The one time is the New Testament.

Also prove that the Gospel is not God's command, previously overlooked, but now enforced, to stop serving mammon and begin to serve God, meta noia, change loyalty, wrongly translated as repent.

Acts 17

30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

...

WHAT IS THE TRUTH ONCE DELIVERED?

WHAT IS THE OPPOSITE BEING TAUGHT BY THE FALSE BELIEVERS?​

The Truth which was once delivered is actually quite opposite of what you were teaching. See, the Gnostics taught private interpretation of Scripture. That's why Peter gives a warning against private interpretation.
See, the Scripture is not all of the Truth that was revealed because Christ had revealed it, and Scripture even openly says that not even all the books in the world could ever contain the things Christ did. The New Testament does contain Truth, but it doesn't tell you how to interpret the Scripture.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The Truth which was once delivered is actually quite opposite of what you were teaching. See, the Gnostics taught private interpretation of Scripture. That's why Peter gives a warning against private interpretation.
See, the Scripture is not all of the Truth that was revealed because Christ had revealed it, and Scripture even openly says that not even all the books in the world could ever contain the things Christ did. The New Testament does contain Truth, but it doesn't tell you how to interpret the Scripture.

The Way :

Ask the Father for bread.

Do not forsake the gathering of the saints.

To one is given a psalm, to another a tongue.

Let each one build upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets of whom Christ is the chief corner stone.

Build with precious matrials, not with straw.

Let one speak, whilst two or three others see if it is confirmed with Scripture.

If anybody's works is burned, he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Jeremiah 23
28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.

 

[sculleywr]

The Way :

Ask the Father for bread.

Do not forsake the gathering of the saints.

To one is given a psalm, to another a tongue.

Let each one build upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets of whom Christ is the chief corner stone.

Build with precious matrials, not with straw.

Let one speak, whilst two or three others see if it is confirmed with Scripture.

If anybody's works is burned, he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Jeremiah 23
28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.

You're over here talking about coherence and you post this?

 

[Wordkeeper]

You're over here talking about coherence and you post this?

This is how the New Testament teaches you to interpret Scripture.

Apparently it worked for the Bereans.

But then, your 'teachers' never told you that.

 

[sculleywr]

This is how the New Testament teaches you to interpret Scripture.

Apparently it worked for the Bereans.

But then, your 'teachers' never told you that.

That isn't even CLOSE to true. You might as well have stated that the Scriptures say your blood is green!

Like I said, you believe that the Apostles and those who knew them and 2000 years of Christians were just too stupid to look at the Scriptures the way you do. Or perhaps you just invented your own theory that nobody else could ever follow because it violates every single law of logic. Either way, this conversation is over because I'm done talking with you. I may as well talk to someone at Arkham.

 

[Wordkeeper]

That isn't even CLOSE to true. You might as well have stated that the Scriptures say your blood is green!

Like I said, you believe that the Apostles and those who knew them and 2000 years of Christians were just too stupid to look at the Scriptures the way you do. Or perhaps you just invented your own theory that nobody else could ever follow because it violates every single law of logic. Either way, this conversation is over because I'm done talking with you. I may as well talk to someone at Arkham.

So what is this, chopped liver?

1 Corinthians 3
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gaveopportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

(In case you say Paul is talking about good works being burned up, the text is talking about doctrine, meaning of the Gospel)

And, here, they assembled together to play Patty Cake?

1 Corinthians 14
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

Your conclusions about the Gospel isn't even in the ball park.

This is what happens when you don't have checks and balances, which is what those who test the spirit do at the gatherings. Good luck trying to correct your ' teachers'.

Hired hands, out sourcing isn't the answer, when your eternal destiny is on the line. Due diligence is.

 

[sculleywr]

So what is this, chopped liver?

1 Corinthians 3
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gaveopportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.


10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

(In case you say Paul is talking about good works being burned up, the text is talking about doctrine, meaning of the Gospel)

And, here, they assembled together to play Patty Cake?

1 Corinthians 14
26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.

Your conclusions about the Gospel isn't even in the ball park.

This is what happens when you don't have checks and balances, which is what those who test the spirit do at the gatherings. Good luck trying to correct your ' teachers'.

Hired hands, out sourcing isn't the answer, when your eternal destiny is on the line. Due diligence is.

Not instructions for interpreting scripture, that's for sure. Interpreting scripture is only mentioned once in Scripture. In Peter's epistle, where he forbids private interpretation.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Not instructions for interpreting scripture, that's for sure. Interpreting scripture is only mentioned once in Scripture. In Peter's epistle, where he forbids private interpretation.

It's not private interpretation, bro. It's God's...

Acts 17
11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

[miknik5]

The Way :

Ask the Father for bread.

Do not forsake the gathering of the saints.

To one is given a psalm, to another a tongue.

Let each one build upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets of whom Christ is the chief corner stone.

Build with precious matrials, not with straw.

Let one speak, whilst two or three others see if it is confirmed with Scripture.

If anybody's works is burned, he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Jeremiah 23
28“The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?30“Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other. 31“Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32“Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, “and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.

What precious material can one add to THE Foundation when it is already written not to lay any other foundation than the one laid

What could one possibly lay. Whether straw, wood or precious "material" it's still manmade toil and additions to THE FOUNDATION

And it still will be burned up

And if one does not have their feet planted firmly on THE FOUNDATION FIRST and FOREMOST, they will fall

(.Please reread 1 Corinthians 3)

You have implied that one should not build with straw or hay but SHOULD build with precious gems and that is NOT what GOD's WORD ( as per 1 Corinthians 3) says

Are you somehow equating precious gems with 1 Peter 1 reference to the precious blood of the lamb, ( that is what Peter was referring to...not gems)

We weren't purchased for GOD any other way but by the PRECIOUS BLOOD of THE LAMB

Thst is THE FOUNDATION of THE HOUSE which GOD is building through and in and by HIS SON

And as 1 Corinthians 3 clearly states, no man should lay any other foundation than the one laid. And that FOUNDATION IS CHRIST

If one does lay another foundation then he's building "another house"