Why Have Humans Grown Out of Old Testament Morality?

[Question.Everything]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

 

[1watchman]

The Israelites continued to rebel against God, so He scattered them in the world. Some have returned to the land and formed a State, and God allowed that; however, He said that in the future He will restore them as a blessed people of God and a ruling nation when they repent. There religion was set aside at the Cross of Christ, when they rejected their Messiah. Stoning is not of God today, but we are to preach the love of God.

Today, Israelites must come to God on the same ground as Gentiles ---by faith in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus (their Messiah). In this New Testament, the Law is not the rule, but the grace of God, and stoning is not fit for the bride of Christ (the Church).

Let me suggest you first read the following portions of the Bible and then pray for God to teach you the meaning: John 1, John 3, John 14, and all of the Epistle to the Galatians. You may be helped greatly if you come in real faith and trust in the Lord. Look up always!

 

[Question.Everything]

Stoning is not of God today

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is God not timeless?

There is no "today" and "yesterday" of God, there is just God. In the exact same fashion, there is no "today's morality from God" and "yesterday's morality from God", there is just absolute morality from God.

 

[razeontherock]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is God not timeless?

That is correct

There is no "today" and "yesterday" of God, there is just God. In the exact same fashion, there is no "today's morality from God" and "yesterday's morality from God", there is just absolute morality from God.

No form of the word moral ever appears in the Bible. I think the concept is a human construct. What you need to realize is that while G-d does not change, the way G-d deals with man does. And this has always been called a Covenant.

The simplest understanding for you, is old covenant vs new. That really will answer all your questions here, once you understand it

 

[fschmidt]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

I would like to answer this question as a non-Christian follower of the Old Testament. The reason that stoning was used in the OT was because they didn't have other practical alternative punishments. They couldn't afford to run a prison, for example. The death penalty was very common in those times for that reason. What has shifted is technology, and now that we have the ability to put people in prison, the death penalty is barbaric. So America is a far more barbaric culture than the OT Israelites were because America has a reasonable alternative to the death penalty, yet it continues to execute people.

The proper interpretation of the OT law is that those crimes that called for stoning should be considered the most serious crimes. The OT considered adultery to be a most serious crime. The reason modern culture doesn't is because modern culture is immoral. And in fact all moral rising cultures did consider adultery to be a most serious crime, and most decaying cultures were immoral and allowed adultery. This is a historical fact.

 

[Question.Everything]

I think the concept is a human construct.

The word itself is, but morality isn't. Every Christian I've ever spoken to has told me morality comes from God.

What you need to realize is that while G-d does not change, the way G-d deals with man does. And this has always been called a Covenant.

The simplest understanding for you, is old covenant vs new. That really will answer all your questions here, once you understand it

So it would be correct to say that morality shifted the moment Jesus died?

 

[Question.Everything]

The reason that stoning was used in the OT was because they didn't have other practical alternative punishments.

Stoning is literal torture, and the person dies slowly and painfully. It takes less time, resources, and people to simply snap someones neck. Or throw them off a cliff. Even drown them. Cut the head off with a sword? I could go on all day.

 

[fschmidt]

Stoning is literal torture, and the person dies slowly and painfully. It takes less time, resources, and people to simply snap someones neck. Or throw them off a cliff. Even drown them. Cut the head off with a sword? I could go on all day.

I am no expert on stoning but I did a little more research. Wikipedia explains that "No individual among the group can be identified as the one who kills the subject, yet everyone involved plainly bears some degree of moral culpability." This makes some sense. I know that Islam limits the size of the stones, and it seems to me that small stones would be a form of torture. But larger stones would knock a person unconscious quickly, so this wouldn't be much different from other forms of the death penalty. There is nothing in the OT to indicate that the intent of stoning was torture, only that it was a common form of the death penalty at that time.

 

[bling]

Stoning is literal torture, and the person dies slowly and painfully. It takes less time, resources, and people to simply snap someones neck. Or throw them off a cliff. Even drown them. Cut the head off with a sword? I could go on all day.

This is a much more complicated question than you realize and you are asking more than one question.

1. Yes God is timeless, but we cannot explain that (it is outside of our experiences). Man is not timeless and God works within man’s time frame.

2. The Old Testament is but a shadow of the new, but it is a stepping stone we need to see and experience.

3. Can you get a better understanding of how bad sin is from the Old Law?

4. Can you understand how pure God’s Kingdom must be by who is put out of the Kingdom (under the old Law Israel was that Kingdom).

5. The Old Law is beautiful, wonderful, Holy, just, righteous, and totally above human ability. Humans could figure that out very quickly and could see they could not depend on the ability to follow the Law for Salvation (but that is alright). Man even during and under the Old Law, had to give up on themselves for salvation and turn to a merciful, Loving Creator for forgiveness.

 

[Sketcher]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

I'm going to disagree with your premise. The OT Law was made out to Jews. Most of us aren't Jews, and thus are not bound by it. While it includes certain universal principles for all mankind to follow, the OT Law adds quite a bit more to it which was addressed only to the Jews. Why Jews no longer follow that law, you would have to ask a Jew. Christians leave crime and punishment to the courts (Romans 13:1-5, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13), and are on an evangelical mission (Matthew 28:18-20). You can't convert the dead, or bring a true conversion out of coercion.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

"OT Law" is instruction given specifically and exclusively to the Jewish people. This is Torah.

God made a Covenant with the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai, this Covenant came with instruction for this specific covenant people: the Torah. The Torah in the Jewish Bible/Christian Old Testament is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

The Jewish rabbis enumerated 613 distinct mitzvot or commandments as contained in Torah.

Christianity, going back to the apostolic era, has argued that Gentiles who became Christians were not compelled to become Jews. That is an uncircumcised pork-eating Greek was fully embraced into the Christian faith by virtue of his baptism and conversion.

As such Christianity has never observed Torah, that was for the Jews only under God's covenant that He made with them on Mt. Sinai.

Christianity recognizes a new covenant, centered around Christ and Christ's death and resurrection, and in Him the constitution of a new people, the Church, comprised of Jews and Gentiles--everyone. The Jew as Jew, the Gentile as Gentile, but a united and whole people together in Jesus Christ.

The "morality" hasn't changed. Israel's legal contract involved punishments for certain actions (as most nations have throughout history), however generally speaking the rabbis recognize that the Torah placed strict limits in exercising corporal punishment. So in order for a woman caught in adultery to be stoned, it required unanimous testimony among witnesses and had to be heard by the council, the Sanhedrin.

My understanding is that corporal punishment was, according to Jewish tradition, quite rare.

The episode of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery is, like many episodes in the Gospels, about how Jesus subverts power and reveals the hypocrisy and ways we manipulate religion and power to meet our own selfish ends. Jesus brings to light the ways many of those in authority in His own time (and much as in our own time today) abuse and manipulate, becoming self-righteous hypocrites: By pointing out how much the spirit of God's Law was being ignored. People were ignoring the heart of the matter, which was justice and mercy. Jesus condemns the hypocrisy, and asserts that the heart of God is mercy, justice and compassion and reflects this through His works and teaching.

The "morality" never changed. Mercy and justice have always been at the heart of God and at the center of God's way. Jesus reminds, and even more importantly, reveals this to us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[razeontherock]

The word itself is, but morality isn't. Every Christian I've ever spoken to has told me morality comes from God.

That debate has raged on CF's pages a lot, and been proven a false idea. What G-d speaks of, is righteousness.

So it would be correct to say that morality shifted the moment Jesus died?

No. It would be correct to say that Jesus ushered in a New Covenant in His blood, and that the transition was complete by the day of Pentecost, 50 days after His Crucifixion. From the time He was Baptized to the Day of Pentecost, there was definitely a transitional period happening, and I won't venture any guesses as being more precise than this.

All of that happened quite a bit before I was born, so this is close enough for my purposes.

 

[salida]

Why is God so different in the OT than He is in the NT?
Old Testament vs. New Testament - What are the differences?

 

[drich0150]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

John 8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 Now early[a] in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught[b] in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded[c] us that such should be stoned.[d] But what do You say?”[e] 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.[f]
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up[g] and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience,[h] went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,[i] “Woman, where are those accusers of yours?[j] Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and[k] sin no more.”
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

 

[Faulty]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

The book of Hebrews describes this shift, the changing from under the Law, in great detail. Here is a bit:

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.​

This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. For it is witnessed of him,​

“You are a priest forever,after the order of Melchizedek.”​

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.​

Heb 7:11-19
​

 

[lucaspa]

The word itself is, but morality isn't. Every Christian I've ever spoken to has told me morality comes from God.

Then you have had a limited exposure to Christians. You have now met your first Christian who does not agree. Pleased to meet you.

Basic question: "Is something good because God commands it or does God command it because it is good?" If you take the first, then you have the ultimate in relativistic morals. Saying "God is good" doesn't help, because unless you have an independent means of establishing what "good" is, then all you have said is "God is God", which doesn't tell us anything in this context.

So, we are left choosing the second option. But that means that "good" and morality is independent of God. That means we can figure out what is moral and what is immoral without reference to God. So be happy, you have also met a Christian who says it is possible for atheists to have morality.

Is adultery wrong? Yes. It violates the trust and exclusivity of a relationship. If you intend to have sex with other people, then don't enter into a marriage.

So it would be correct to say that morality shifted the moment Jesus died?

Did you not read the person who posted John 8? This particular punishment shifted quite a bit before that. You are confusing the punishment with morality. Right now, we are going thru a debate in the USA whether we should punish some crimes with execution. The crimes remain crimes (and often immoral), just the punishment is changing from execution to life imprisonment.

However, is adultery still immoral? Yes. Adultery violates the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" rule.

Does morality, our at least our perception of what is "moral", change? YES! Morality changes with technology, economics, and increasing knowledge. A few examples: Before the mid 1800s, it was moral to kill someone with a penetrating abdominal wound? Why? Because the victim would die a lingering, painful death from peritonitis. A quick death by slashing the throat, stabbing in the heart, shooting in the head, etc. was more "moral". After aseptic techniques and particularly after the discovery of antibiotics, it is immoral to kill a person with a penetrating belly wound.

In a subsistence society, it would be moral to kill a murderer. Why? Because that society does not have the resources to keep such a person imprisoned. Innocent people would suffer hunger and other deprivations. However, our society is wealthy enough that we have more than enough resources to keep someone securely imprisoned for life.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Did God tell people to stop stoning others as punishment for things like adultery? If so, where did he tell these people? Was it recorded?

If not, why did morality shift from the OT Law?

What you will find when you do a study of scripture is that God never actually stoned anyone for adultery. The law was only there to scare people out of sin. As examples David comitted adultery with another mans wife, got the woman pregnant, then tried to cover up by having the womans husband killed. Two things which require the death penalty. But you will note the prophet of God told david, he would be punished by the natural death of the child and strife not leaving his house hold. But he was not killed. Jesus, who is God, pardoned an adulterer when she was caught having sex with another man. Again not carying out the penalty, he just told the woman go and sin no more. Joseph the husband of mary the mother of Jesus was called a "Just man" for not wanting to make a public example of mary, when she was found to be with child before marriage (also under the law punishable by death). So justice in God's eyes is not carying out the penalty.

 

[Harry3142]

Question Everything-

What we Christians call the Old Testament, and in particular the first five books (the Torah) contained the laws and commandments which, if obeyed by the citizenry, would make their society strong and cohesive. As such, the Torah's closest comparison would be The Code of Hammurabi, which also was a set of laws intended to bring uniformity to his society.

The people's concentration was to focus on themselves as a part of the whole, and therefore see what they did, or refrained from doing, in light of how it affected their society as a whole. Those who endangered that society to a small degree were to make amends by offering sacrifices as their admission that they had sinned. But there were other sins that were identified by Torah as being such a threat to society that the only amends that could be made was the sinners' expulsion from their society through their being executed.

However, in the New Testament we are brought face-to face with the individual as he relates to God himself. An eternal life is confirmed as reality there, and the question arises as to how to obtain that eternal life. The answer to that question is that none of us is capable of being so perfect that he (or she) can earn it. Instead, it must be accepted as a gift, earned by us through God's own efforts rather than our own.

The New Testament also crossed boundaries. Whereas the Old Testament focussed on Abraham and his descendants, the New Testament began with his further descendants, but then quickly spread out to encompass all societies, rather than their focus remaining with those descendants. It was no longer to be seen as a religion of a certain nation, but rather as a universal religion which enabled its adherents, irregarless of their nationality or race, to obtain salvation.