Why exactly is rock music Satanic?

Skavau

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Here is the problem with this debate. Your general parameters are to ignore the points I actually make and instead fabricate counter-arguments based on claims I did not make. Consequently, my response to this:

Would be to ask if you understand what the term often means.
The term means someone who does not believe in a God. Anti-Theist is not the same thing as an Atheist.

Earlier I embedded a link to the FOX television show "Lucifer." The precept of that series is Lucifer, the devil himself, decides to take a vacation from his duties in hell and relocate to Los Angeles.
Yeah. That's on my to-watch list.

Should that show being critically acclaimed bother me?

I read the background and watched the first episode. It is your typical sophomoric low-brow network television crap, laced with juvenile humor written governed by the assumed stupidity of the potential viewer. The narrative champions hedonism and moral relativism combined with imagery embedded with occult symbolism. In regard to the series being produced and aired, the question is why FOX decided to produce it?
Perhaps because they thought it'd make a well-watched and good selling series.

FOX believed the show would draw enough viewers to render it profitable via advertising revenue.

FOX executives are on the band-wagon of taking every opportunity to stick their finger in the eye of Christians.

Someone is promoting an agenda.
What a surprise you think the second answer is more likely.

Of course each of these raises more questions. At least for those rational enough to ask. But the underlying truth in regard to this series is clear. Without a cultural construct molded to be accommodating the ability to produce a television series featuring satan as the male lead would not be possible. Do you believe this series could have been green-lighted during the 1970's, or the 1980's?
Possibly. I doubt it'd have been as successful. Christianity has waned since then though so it is more an indicator of how less seriously people take Christianity.

I never said it did. I have stated quite clearly television was not invented for satanist or the promotion of satanism or the occult. I said satanist have availed themselves of the media in order to promote their agenda. The exact same is true of rock music. Rock music, or if you wish music in general, wasn't invented as an art form in order to promote the occult. But occultist have certainly taken advantage of its power and influence to promote their agenda.
I didn't refer to television or rock having been invented to "promote satanism". I said that Satanism, the emergence of it is the consequence of the occult being present in popular culture.

If so then these people have a warped idea of what is fun. Alcoholism, drug addiction, over indulgence, sexual promiscuity, sexual depravity, rage rebellion, narcissism, nihilism, depression, suicide, these are all self-destructive practices.
This would be you, of course, taking to extremes the themes of suggestive media and arguing as if everyone who enjoys a raunchy or dark song takes their lyrics literally.

Based on your prior post this is where you start screaming "Puritan! Outcast Unclean!" But understand I am not talking about a behavior, I am talking about irresponsible behavior.
You are a Puritan. You're also a Prude.

You'd be at home in Pleasantville.

The underlying maxim of many rock and pop music anthems is based on the Aleister Crowley dictate of "Do What Thou Wilt." A dictate more commonly embraced as moral relativism.
Curiously the societal standards needed to support "Do What Thou Wilt" involve the implementation of human rights. You can do what thou wilt so long as it does not inflict upon the others to do the same.

I'd always prefer a slightly satanic and rebellious edge to live over the restrictive, excessively puritan and prudish behavioural restrictions that derive from religious fundamentalism.

Very few care what Tom Cruise thinks. Rock music as a genre however has embraced the philosophy of Crowley.
There is no single philosophy behind Rock music. We have Progressive Rock, Stoner Rock, Post-Rock, Indie Rock, Folk Rock, Alternative Rock, Gothic Rock, Industrial Rock, Shoegaze, Math Rock, Noise Rock, Garage Rock, Post-Hardcore, Punk Rock, Emo, Dream Pop, Grunge, Symphonic Rock, Latin Rock, Neo-Prog, Avant-Prog etc, most of which have managed some form of success and effect in the public consciousness.

His image was included on the cover of the Beatles album "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band." The Rolling Stones were devotees of both Crowley and Anton LeVay for a time. This is the original cover scheduled for their album "Goats Head Soup." Considered too controversial for the time it was eventually changed to an image of Jagger wrapped in silk, or something. The Stones also evidenced their allegiance on the cover for the album "Their Satanic Majesty's Request." And by producing an album by that name. And the fact they just admitted it. Crowley's philosophy also influenced other notable bands such as Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, and Metallica. And a lot of other guys. Quote:
Imagine being so prude that The Rolling Stones and The Beatles are too suggestive for you.

Fantasy is a genre. The occult is a practice.
Fantasy borrows from popular culture. Most forms of fantasy have their own interpretation of the occult in some form.

Moving the goalpost. Prior it was all just fantasy.
I am not moving any goalpost. Most forms of Fantasy include a satanic and occult-esque element. Presumably you object to all of them.

They take themselves seriously. And apparently so does the music industry. I think they are idiots, but what matters is what their fans think, and what their fans get from the music. Music appreciation is subjective, the term good relative.
How do you know they take themselves seriously behind just being a stage act?

The music industry takes their music seriously, not their image. Their imagery is more of a curiousity to the industry. They actually produce very high quality music.

Have you looked at how many music artist are making this claim? Lada Gaga, Beyonce, Kesha, Kenya West, Katy Perry, just to cite a small sample, are all on video openly confessing to their conversion.
I quickly looked up one link about Katy Perry admitting that and it looks extremely doctored with grainy image. No lip matches. Give sources on all of them please, and with context.

The Lada Gaga video for "Bad Romance" graphically details her conversion, the act of selling her soul. Because of the imagery employed I can't even link it here.
Because people always believe in what they sing about.

Another strawman. That isn't what I said.
If you believe the entertainment industry and the music industry are pro-satan and interested in promoting pro-satan music acts and television shows, this is definitely what you believe.

Wicca is not a cultural heritage. But again, I very clearly stated what I stated. The issue isn't nature themes in music. The issue is pagan and occult practices glorified in music.
Why is the glorification of pagan cultural practices by folk metal bands a problem?

A statement which tells me you didn't bother to do any research.
Lol really. Give me a link of a fanatical Pagan trying to promote Paganism or complaining about a Pro-Christian bias of popular culture.

I don't do any 'research' in this because I am not obsessed with things like Reptilians and the Illuminati like a huge % of your sources are.

Sidestep. My question was for you to explain what aspect of the fantasy genre you believed was being promoted via those particular album covers.
I regard the occult as being part of fantasy, just so you know. I'll ask again:

So do you actually believe that Kanye West, Rihanna and Black Sabbath are Satanists?

Irrelevant. The point is a percentage of album covers promote satanic theme, imagery, and ideology.
Seeing as your standards are so low for what constitutes satanic promotion, it does not surprise me that you think this.
 
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Sistrin

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I've been busy, but a few points.

The term means someone who does not believe in a God. Anti-Theist is not the same thing as an Atheist.

The term "often" means that? Perhaps you should reexamine the applicable portions of my post.

Yeah. That's on my to-watch list.

If you like drek, indulge yourself. IMDB has the show trending down 18 points, while Nielsen ratings reveal a drop of almost twenty percentage points from its first week alone. The show isn't just another in a long line of attempts to redefine the father of all lies, i.e., satanic deception gone prime time, it is puerile and insulting crap. The sad news is it will probably be renewed.

What a surprise you think the second answer is more likely.

Actually I believe it is a combination of all three.

I didn't refer to television or rock having been invented to "promote satanism". I said that Satanism, the emergence of it is the consequence of the occult being present in popular culture.
Satanism is the occult, the occult is satanism. The two are irrevocably intertwined.

This would be you, of course, taking to extremes the themes of suggestive media and arguing as if everyone who enjoys a raunchy or dark song takes their lyrics literally.

Except that is another argument I did not make. There exist a plethora of themes expressed in music, to include of course rock music. That does not preclude but rather includes all the ones I mentioned. And the concept of the effect of those themes isn't new. Quote:

"Heavy metal lyrics often have themes of alienation, retribution, and angst (Arnett, 1996; Trzcinski, 1992). The lyrics may contain references to sex, drug use, suicide, Satanism, and violence (Arnett, 1996; Bashe, 1985; Gore, 1987). From the listener's standpoint, the lyrics are secondary to the loud, guitar-driven music and may be difficult to comprehend (Hansen & Hansen, 1991). Furthermore, heavy metal lyrics are often metaphorical and open to interpretation (Arnett, 1996; Fox & Williams, 1974; Trzcinski, 1992).

Rap lyrics are chanted and accompanied by rhythmic music that may include dragging a phonograph needle across a record; the lyrics of rap songs are usually easy to comprehend. Rap lyrics, which sometimes contain objectionable language, often expound on the problems of urban life (Simpson, 1990), sometimes including themes of sex, drug use, misogyny, or violence (Epstein, Pratto, & Skipper, 1990). Like heavy metal, rap lyrics often express themes of alienation and powerlessness among youth (Epstein et al.).

Pop music lyrics address a myriad of themes and include references to sex, violence, drug use, and Satan, or they may contain objectionable language (Gore, 1987; Prinsky & Rosenbaum, 1987). Pop music reaches a larger audience than either heavy metal or rap music does."


In October of 1969 Jimi Hendrix was quoted in a Life Magazine article. He said:

"You can hypnotize people with music and when you get them at their weakest point, you can preach into the subconscious what we want to say."

MTV once used as an advertising slogan the phrase "MTV, aggressively reorganizing your brain." Musicians recognize the power they often wield. Blacky Lawless of W.A.S.P was once quoted as having said:

"Rock 'n' Roll is an aggressive art form, pure hostility and aggression. I believe in that like a religion."

In their 20th anniversary issue the mouth pieces for the Rolling Stone claimed:

"It's not just an exaggeration to say that rebellion is more than just an occasional theme in rock, it is its very heart and soul."

While the manager of the actual Rolling Stones once said:

"Rock IS sex. You have to hit teenagers in the face with it!"

How many famous rock and pop musicians have died due to drug and/or alcohol related causes? A partial list includes Brian Jones, Sid Vicious, Dennis Wilson, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Elvis Presley, Janice Joplin, Bon Scott, Frankie Lymon, Tim Harden, Phil Lynott, and David Ruffin, who died of an overdose of cocaine. More recent qualifiers would include Whitney Houston, Amy Winehouse, Scott Weiland, and Dave Brockie. Brockie, of the band GWAR, died a heroin overdose.

The issue isn't that themes of rock music include glorification of all manner of societal ills. The issue is those most easily influenced by the power of music should be aware of that fact. It goes without saying, or at least it should, that not everyone who listens to raunchy or satanic themed music will fall prey to it. But many will.

You are a Puritan.

If I have to be called a name, I can live with that one.

You'd be at home in Pleasantville.

Speaking of theme, do you know what that movie was actually about? The metaphor being employed?

Curiously the societal standards needed to support "Do What Thou Wilt" involve the implementation of human rights. You can do what thou wilt so long as it does not inflict upon the others to do the same.

That isn't the philosophy Crowley espoused. He did not state do what thou wilt as long as it did not harm others. He said, preached, and promoted the philosophy do what thou wilt. There were no qualifiers on that, the stated goal restricted only by personal desire. Crowley has been called the most wicked man to ever live. If only ten percent of what he claimed to have done in pursuit of his carnal desires is actually true, he would still go down in history as an incredibly evil man.

I'd always prefer a slightly satanic and rebellious edge to live over the restrictive, excessively puritan and prudish behavioural restrictions that derive from religious fundamentalism.

Because satanism is free of religious fundamentalism. Satanist have their own bible, their own version of the ten commandments, their own churches, rituals, prayers, and dogma. The primary difference is the majority of it is motivated by hate. From the to the Satanic Bible:

"Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!"

From the book of satan, quote:

"Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong!"

The book of lucifer promotes the philosophy of "satanic sex," as well as vengeance for all transgressions. The book of belial covers ritual and magic. The book of Leviathan includes an invocation to satan."

Have fun.

Imagine being so prude that The Rolling Stones and The Beatles are too suggestive for you.

Another claim I never made. I merely illustrated what occurred as an illustration of the influence. Aleister Crowley was featured on the cover of "Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band."

Lol really. Give me a link of a fanatical Pagan trying to promote Paganism or complaining about a Pro-Christian bias of popular culture.

I already addressed this once. But again, try the 600 club as a starter.

I don't do any 'research' in this because I am not obsessed with things like Reptilians and the Illuminati like a huge % of your sources are.

Two words I never used. I know what sources I posted because I posted them. Please support this claim with examples from the direct links I embedded.

So do you actually believe that Kanye West, Rihanna and Black Sabbath are Satanists?

The answer is yes. But what I believe is far less important to the question than how these people represent themselves. Kanye West admitted to it on video. Rihanna makes her allegiances clear in the uncensored version of her video for the song "Better Have My Money," which I can't link to here due to forum rules. But I can post this:

dejam3.jpg


As for Black Sabbath, please.

Seeing as your standards are so low for what constitutes satanic promotion, it does not surprise me that you think this.

Here is a challenge for you. Dissect this image:

Kanye-West-Yeezus-Album-Download.png


Tell us what you believe the imagery is designed to represent.
 
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Skavau

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The term "often" means that? Perhaps you should reexamine the applicable portions of my post.
I honestly have no idea what it is you think about the term 'Atheism' at this point.

If you like drek, indulge yourself. IMDB has the show trending down 18 points, while Nielsen ratings reveal a drop of almost twenty percentage points from its first week alone. The show isn't just another in a long line of attempts to redefine the father of all lies, i.e., satanic deception gone prime time, it is puerile and insulting crap. The sad news is it will probably be renewed.
Of course you would describe it as drek. I have little idea of its quality other than to know it has been highly regarded regardless of any downward trend.

Actually I believe it is a combination of all three.
What a surprise you think that two and three are possible motives for Lucifer.

Satanism is the occult, the occult is satanism. The two are irrevocably intertwined.
Their emergence in popular culture is from where their involvement in fiction comes from.

Except that is another argument I did not make. There exist a plethora of themes expressed in music, to include of course rock music. That does not preclude but rather includes all the ones I mentioned. And the concept of the effect of those themes isn't new. Quote:

"Heavy metal lyrics often have themes of alienation, retribution, and angst (Arnett, 1996; Trzcinski, 1992).
Metal is just as likely to have lyrics generally about fantasy, sci-fi, escapism, rebellion and philosophy.

I don't view singing about alienation, retribution or angst as inherently bad.

The lyrics may contain references to sex, drug use, suicide, Satanism, and violence (Arnett, 1996; Bashe, 1985; Gore, 1987).
Your youngest source there is 20 years out of date. Sex isn't actually, overall, /that/ common across Metal. Drug use isn't that common. 'Satanism' I just bundle in with fantasy themes.

Violence is /sort of/ common, but it's highly concentrated in particular styles.

From the listener's standpoint, the lyrics are secondary to the loud, guitar-driven music and may be difficult to comprehend (Hansen & Hansen, 1991). Furthermore, heavy metal lyrics are often metaphorical and open to interpretation (Arnett, 1996; Fox & Williams, 1974; Trzcinski, 1992).
This is true.

A problem here?

Rap lyrics are chanted and accompanied by rhythmic music that may include dragging a phonograph needle across a record; the lyrics of rap songs are usually easy to comprehend. Rap lyrics, which sometimes contain objectionable language, often expound on the problems of urban life (Simpson, 1990), sometimes including themes of sex, drug use, misogyny, or violence (Epstein, Pratto, & Skipper, 1990). Like heavy metal, rap lyrics often express themes of alienation and powerlessness among youth (Epstein et al.).
I can't speak as to the general lyrical themes of rap other than the popular perception.

Pop music lyrics address a myriad of themes and include references to sex, violence, drug use, and Satan, or they may contain objectionable language (Gore, 1987; Prinsky & Rosenbaum, 1987). Pop music reaches a larger audience than either heavy metal or rap music does."
Pop music probably has the widest range of lyrical themes. Sex tends to trend much higher though.

In October of 1969 Jimi Hendrix was quoted in a Life Magazine article. He said:

"You can hypnotize people with music and when you get them at their weakest point, you can preach into the subconscious what we want to say."
Lol, ok.

The power of music is already well known. I am sure I can find plenty of significant and semi-significant people who say things like this.

MTV once used as an advertising slogan the phrase "MTV, aggressively reorganizing your brain." Musicians recognize the power they often wield. Blacky Lawless of W.A.S.P was once quoted as having said:

"Rock 'n' Roll is an aggressive art form, pure hostility and aggression. I believe in that like a religion."
Yup, so we know that obviously that MTV literally believes and intends to manipulate the brains of its listeners through music. That's their prime agenda and "Blacky Lawless" from W.A.S.P thinks the rock 'n' roll is a religion.

In their 20th anniversary issue the mouth pieces for the Rolling Stone claimed:

"It's not just an exaggeration to say that rebellion is more than just an occasional theme in rock, it is its very heart and soul."
I am not sure what significance you think this quote has. Rock, Metal, as I've said myself is highly rebellion driven. Is this a bad thing? Does the fact that Rolling Stone says it mean something new?

How many famous rock and pop musicians have died due to drug and/or alcohol related causes? A partial list includes Brian Jones, Sid Vicious, Dennis Wilson, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Elvis Presley, Janice Joplin, Bon Scott, Frankie Lymon, Tim Harden, Phil Lynott, and David Ruffin, who died of an overdose of cocaine. More recent qualifiers would include Whitney Houston, Amy Winehouse, Scott Weiland, and Dave Brockie. Brockie, of the band GWAR, died a heroin overdose.
What are you trying to say here? Lots of actors have also died across the years.

The issue isn't that themes of rock music include glorification of all manner of societal ills. The issue is those most easily influenced by the power of music should be aware of that fact. It goes without saying, or at least it should, that not everyone who listens to raunchy or satanic themed music will fall prey to it. But many will.
You could say this about a whole selection of media content or hobbies that people partake in. I'd say the dangerous aspects of it all is the performance culture, which would implicitly encourage drug use and alcohol abuse amongst the band members and concert goers, albeit trends on that seem to be going downwrds since the 80's and 90's.

Speaking of theme, do you know what that movie was actually about? The metaphor being employed?
I have not watched it in over 10 years. Tell me your interpretation.

That isn't the philosophy Crowley espoused. He did not state do what thou wilt as long as it did not harm others. He said, preached, and promoted the philosophy do what thou wilt.
Yet almost no-one, anywhere, seriously argues that we should do "what thou wilt" if it inflicts upon others. So who honestly cares.

Because satanism is free of religious fundamentalism. Satanist have their own bible, their own version of the ten commandments, their own churches, rituals, prayers, and dogma. The primary difference is the majority of it is motivated by hate. From the to the Satanic Bible:

"Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!"
I'd still prefer an influence of Satanism and rebellion over the plain dullness of your purified media.

From the book of satan, quote:

"Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong!"

The book of lucifer promotes the philosophy of "satanic sex," as well as vengeance for all transgressions. The book of belial covers ritual and magic. The book of Leviathan includes an invocation to satan."

Have fun.
I don't really care about 'ritual' and 'magic. Rituals are useless, magic doesn't exist. I don't care about any 'satanic sex' concept.

I already addressed this once. But again, try the 600 club as a starter.
You didn't. How much power does the 600 Club have? They have a website. Do they have any media presence? Do they have adherents that spread themselves aggressively across society to preach, to heckle, to demand that pro-christian influence wane?

Two words I never used. I know what sources I posted because I posted them. Please support this claim with examples from the direct links I embedded.
Your link on Bob Dylon was made by the people behind, or supportive of "Evil Industries". If you go on their website (which you can through the youtube page), you can find they're a bit obsessed with the Illuminati.

This is not related but browsing through one of your links, well, it's showing how credulous you were when you linked it:

This is from some preacher channel on Youtube. It claims the little girl is from Satanist parents. All she seems to be doing is heckling a street preacher. That's it. No evidence of Satanism at all. It's a laughably minor event and you linked it as if it is some evidence for Satanism.

In terms of generality, most sites that rave against Satanism in popular culture tend to be obsessed with the Illuminati and to a lesser extent, Reptilians. You've mostly linked images of album covers and random pictures (mostly bereft of context and useful information) and the odd youtube link that would indicate you're likely to take anything seriously so long as it conforms with your suspicion that Satanists are trying to take over the world.

The answer is yes. But what I believe is far less important to the question than how these people represent themselves. Kanye West admitted to it on video. Rihanna makes her allegiances clear in the uncensored version of her video for the song "Better Have My Money," which I can't link to here due to forum rules. But I can post this:
Of course you do. What a surprise. Basically you're saying it is impossible to sing about satanism without being a satanist yourself.

Here is a challenge for you. Dissect this image:

Kanye-West-Yeezus-Album-Download.png


Tell us what you believe the imagery is designed to represent.
Kanye is trying to be confrontational.

You never answered the following:

Why is the glorification of pagan cultural practices by folk metal bands a problem?

I also must ask: How much of a small percentage would Satanic themes have to compose across music bands in order to just represent an aspect of culture rather than trying to take over culture? How small a percentage should they be, according to you?
 
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APC_Carrier

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Hello, I just registered to answer the original question of the thread and provide some insight. I hope it's not too late, given the date of the initial message.

Before I make my point, some personal information. I am in my mid thirties, went to a catholic school (order of the jesuits) since I was 3 until 18. After finishing I studied chemistry in an university which is leftist and extremely anticatholic. I walked away from church at 21 because of a sum of factors, but I never doubted God's existence due to a personal experience I will not detail now.

After 15 years outside church living a dissipated lifestyle I came back to church due to a personal situation I had at work. I consider myself now a sinner in need for redemption who is a practising catholic that tries to follow 100% of the Catholic Catechism. I do not doubt one come or point in the Catholic Doctrine, and try to strengthen my understanding through prayer, penance, reading and fasting. I used to hear metal bands like Megadeth, Metallica, WASP, AC DC, ecc. That being said, let's do some basic analysis.

1) Rock is satanic, because it is at plain sight that rock musicians worship satan. You just have to look at the major rock bands back in the sixties, all of their members explicitly admitted satanic worship and their actions were consistent with their speech (meaning that they were not posing or faking it). Let's see
- All members of Led Zeppelin (except J P Jones) where involved in a satanic worship ritual. Strangely, all of them had tragic deaths and/or incidents in their lives (excepting, of course, J P Jones). Some of the members of the band also bought Alistair Crowley's castle and became involved with Kenneth Anger, one of his disciples. You just have to google who Crowley and Anger were and you will see.
- John Lennon publicly admitted to have made a pact with the Devil in exchange for fortune and fame in 1960, such pact would last for 20 years and Lennon was killed in 1980. Lennon's murderer was visited by an exorcist in prison, where the priest liberated him from five demons. You just have to search the web if you don't believe me. Lennon's discourse from there onwards was markedly anti-christian with public behaviors that where blatant blasphemy. Some authors theorize that in Revolution 9, near the end of the song Lennon is having a conversation with the Devil where he realizes how Satan will kill him.
- Jimi Hendrix was possessed by the Devil, this said by him and confirmed by his girlfriend. Hendrix's girl said that Jimi felt often tormented by something he could not see but had a hold on him. Hendrix put an end to his life through an overdose of alcohol and pills that would lead him to die choked in his vomit.
- The Doors publicly claimed that "it was of no use to search for a Messiah outside ourselves" among some other controversial and quite openly anti-God quotes. Morrison also had a tragic death caused by a drug overdose, in this case heroin.
- The Rolling Stones had their fair share too. Jagger had sexual relations with David Bowie (sodomy); he also wrote "Sympathy for the Devil". The Altamont tragedy is a quite controversial point in their career.
- AC DC's lead singer, Bon Scott, died of alcohol overdose (another one that follows the same fate that Morrison, and Hendrix) after finishing Highway to Hell. AC DC's lyrics are quite explicit in their notions about Satan. Angus Young has said that when he's on stage he becomes sort of possessed and loses control of himself. You can google it.
- Dave Mustaine became involved in witchcraft in his youth; after converting to christian faith he openly admitted "witchcraft ruined my life".

As you can see, these are not Class-B bands that nobody knew of. We are talking about some of the most legendary and famous rock bands of modern history. All of them at some point had an involvement with the occult and had no qualms of admitting it. This is not mere "posing", anyone could adopt a skeptic position and say: "hey, it's just marketing". But that clearly omits the fact that these musicians did not had catholic lives, their lifestyle was congruent with their personality on-stage and in the studio.

2) As the saying goes: "if it looks like fish, swims like a fish and smells like a fish... then it is probably fish". Rock is satanic simply because all evidence points in that direction. And I haven't even touched Ronnie Dio (just see the front covers of his albums) or Black Sabbath or Judas Priest.

You have to understand that if these music bands had not been satanic, some measures would have been taken to make lyrics and or album covers different. Nothing like that happened.

If they said to be involved in satanism and the occult, why shouldn't we believe them?

3) Rock is satanic because it does not lead openly to a strengthening of our relation with the Holy Trinity. In life things are quite simple: either something helps you grow in virtue and holiness, or it does the opposite. Does rock music provide a framework where the virtues of chastity, piety, patience, longsuffering, selflesness are increased? To answer that we just need to see how the most famous musicians of the genre lived and died, evidence it is at plain sight.

Two conferences worth listening to:


 
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Skavau

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APC_Carrier said:
3) Rock is satanic because it does not lead openly to a strengthening of our relation with the Holy Trinity. In life things are quite simple: either something helps you grow in virtue and holiness, or it does the opposite. Does rock music provide a framework where the virtues of chastity, piety, patience, longsuffering, selflesness are increased? To answer that we just need to see how the most famous musicians of the genre lived and died, evidence it is at plain sight.

What are you even getting at here? How is it that Rock can't amplify those virtues? This just reads like elitism, snobbery.

Your knowledge and understanding of the variety of Rock, Punk and Metal music is demonstrated by your focusing on mostly hard-rock and proto-metal bands.
 
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APC_Carrier

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If you read my message again and then you read your response, you will realize that:
a) your response does not refuse nor invalid my argumentation
b) your call on my apparent "Snobbery" is an ad hominem argument
c) your call my apparent lack of understanding in the subgenres of rock does not invalid my argumentation. In other words, you just threw a non sequitur.

I am going to keep it simple: DON T KILL THE MESSENGER. My text can be summarized in one sentence. Rock is satanic because rock musicians ADMIT to be satanists, ACT as satanists, and HAVE NO ISSUES in doing so.

PS: if you call the Rolling Stones, The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix to be "hard rock" and/or "proto-metal" you are completely clueless in life and in need of an urgent crash course in rock music. Based on such an ignorant comment I'd say you are no more than 19 years old. Until you rectify such a conceptual atrocity I will refrain myself from debating with you. Cheers.
 
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Skavau

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If you read my message again and then you read your response, you will realize that:
a) your response does not refuse nor invalid my argumentation
I had a huge back and forth with with Sistrin on "rock artists are connected to Satanism" line. Feel free to read that.

b) your call on my apparent "Snobbery" is an ad hominem argument
It's not at all. You suggest that there's something inherent to the sound of Rock music that makes it unable to function as edifying music. That's elitism.

c) your call my apparent lack of understanding in the subgenres of rock does not invalid my argumentation. In other words, you just threw a non sequitur.
Not at all. Because you don't know enough about Rock, you've no idea about the variety that Rock music has.

I am going to keep it simple: DON T KILL THE MESSENGER. My text can be summarized in one sentence. Rock is satanic because rock musicians ADMIT to be satanists, ACT as satanists, and HAVE NO ISSUES in doing so.
Some Rock musics play to the theme of Satanism and say silly things in public to that end. You mentioned a handful of artists.

Most Rock musicians don't care one bit about Satanism.

PS: if you call the Rolling Stones, The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix to be "hard rock" and/or "proto-metal" you are completely clueless in life and in need of an urgent crash course in rock music. Based on such an ignorant comment I'd say you are no more than 19 years old. Until you rectify such a conceptual atrocity I will refrain myself from debating with you. Cheers.
So, this isn't an ad hominem, but me suggesting that you don't know anything about rock music is?

Your list fails to mention Psychedelic Rock (other than Jimi Hendrix, sort of). It fails to mention anything about Progressive Rock, Alternative Rock, Shoegaze, Post-Hardcore, Industrial Rock, Grunge, Post-Punk, Post-Rock, Folk Rock, Symphonic Rock, Math Rock, Avant-Prog, Rock Opera, Slowcore, Indie Rock, Acoustic Rock, Heavy Psych, Gothic Rock... this isn't even mentioning the variety and depth of Metal music.
 
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Caminator

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Hello, I just registered to answer the original question of the thread and provide some insight. I hope it's not too late, given the date of the initial message.

Before I make my point, some personal information. I am in my mid thirties, went to a catholic school (order of the jesuits) since I was 3 until 18. After finishing I studied chemistry in an university which is leftist and extremely anticatholic. I walked away from church at 21 because of a sum of factors, but I never doubted God's existence due to a personal experience I will not detail now.

After 15 years outside church living a dissipated lifestyle I came back to church due to a personal situation I had at work. I consider myself now a sinner in need for redemption who is a practising catholic that tries to follow 100% of the Catholic Catechism. I do not doubt one come or point in the Catholic Doctrine, and try to strengthen my understanding through prayer, penance, reading and fasting. I used to hear metal bands like Megadeth, Metallica, WASP, AC DC, ecc. That being said, let's do some basic analysis.

1) Rock is satanic, because it is at plain sight that rock musicians worship satan. You just have to look at the major rock bands back in the sixties, all of their members explicitly admitted satanic worship and their actions were consistent with their speech (meaning that they were not posing or faking it). Let's see
- All members of Led Zeppelin (except J P Jones) where involved in a satanic worship ritual. Strangely, all of them had tragic deaths and/or incidents in their lives (excepting, of course, J P Jones). Some of the members of the band also bought Alistair Crowley's castle and became involved with Kenneth Anger, one of his disciples. You just have to google who Crowley and Anger were and you will see.
- John Lennon publicly admitted to have made a pact with the Devil in exchange for fortune and fame in 1960, such pact would last for 20 years and Lennon was killed in 1980. Lennon's murderer was visited by an exorcist in prison, where the priest liberated him from five demons. You just have to search the web if you don't believe me. Lennon's discourse from there onwards was markedly anti-christian with public behaviors that where blatant blasphemy. Some authors theorize that in Revolution 9, near the end of the song Lennon is having a conversation with the Devil where he realizes how Satan will kill him.
- Jimi Hendrix was possessed by the Devil, this said by him and confirmed by his girlfriend. Hendrix's girl said that Jimi felt often tormented by something he could not see but had a hold on him. Hendrix put an end to his life through an overdose of alcohol and pills that would lead him to die choked in his vomit.
- The Doors publicly claimed that "it was of no use to search for a Messiah outside ourselves" among some other controversial and quite openly anti-God quotes. Morrison also had a tragic death caused by a drug overdose, in this case heroin.
- The Rolling Stones had their fair share too. Jagger had sexual relations with David Bowie (sodomy); he also wrote "Sympathy for the Devil". The Altamont tragedy is a quite controversial point in their career.
- AC DC's lead singer, Bon Scott, died of alcohol overdose (another one that follows the same fate that Morrison, and Hendrix) after finishing Highway to Hell. AC DC's lyrics are quite explicit in their notions about Satan. Angus Young has said that when he's on stage he becomes sort of possessed and loses control of himself. You can google it.
- Dave Mustaine became involved in witchcraft in his youth; after converting to christian faith he openly admitted "witchcraft ruined my life".

As you can see, these are not Class-B bands that nobody knew of. We are talking about some of the most legendary and famous rock bands of modern history. All of them at some point had an involvement with the occult and had no qualms of admitting it. This is not mere "posing", anyone could adopt a skeptic position and say: "hey, it's just marketing". But that clearly omits the fact that these musicians did not had catholic lives, their lifestyle was congruent with their personality on-stage and in the studio.

2) As the saying goes: "if it looks like fish, swims like a fish and smells like a fish... then it is probably fish". Rock is satanic simply because all evidence points in that direction. And I haven't even touched Ronnie Dio (just see the front covers of his albums) or Black Sabbath or Judas Priest.

You have to understand that if these music bands had not been satanic, some measures would have been taken to make lyrics and or album covers different. Nothing like that happened.

If they said to be involved in satanism and the occult, why shouldn't we believe them?

3) Rock is satanic because it does not lead openly to a strengthening of our relation with the Holy Trinity. In life things are quite simple: either something helps you grow in virtue and holiness, or it does the opposite. Does rock music provide a framework where the virtues of chastity, piety, patience, longsuffering, selflesness are increased? To answer that we just need to see how the most famous musicians of the genre lived and died, evidence it is at plain sight.

Two conferences worth listening to:


Way too much guilt by association here for me. Some classical musicians are total drunks. You can see it on some of the album covers for their releases. They're playing Mozart or whatever, but they clearly need to stay away from the bottle. This has nothing to do with the music. What Ozzy does has nothing to do with the music of Deliverance or Decyfer Down - two of my favorite bands.

I think X-Sinner is worldly, but not because of their music. They dress worldly, and they use skulls in their imagery. I disagree with that, but when I listen to them, I don't listen to their clothing, or to the skulls in their artwork. By the way, it seems they have removed the skulls from their website. I think maybe someone spoke to them about it. I also don't like the flippant attitude of Rex Scott, the singer. On Zion's Thrillseeker album, he is recorded flippantly using Jesus name. Someone is saying something negative to him, and he says "I rebuke that in Jesus' name!" My pastor has gone to Pentecostal conferences and sat around eating dinner with pastors who talk the same way. It's a Pentacostal/Charismatic thing, and I think it's worldly. Anyway, with Rex Scott, it has nothing to do with the music.

The problem with the church today is a total lack of logical thinking. Christians in the 17th and 18th Centuries were accused by the world of being too logical. That was orthodox faith. You (generically speaking) can shove your pietism in your ear. I want a logical and rational faith.

Anyway, because Christians are not logical today, they do not understand how to biblically critique music. A band is not worldy because they sound like AC/DC or Black Sabbath. Worldliness is not in a sound, unless you can show how that sound does not measure up to the standards laid out in Phil. 4:8, which is the standard by which we should measure all art. But Arminians don't do that. They just pull arguments out of the air and preach them as God's wisdom. Jimmy Swaggart, Jack van Impe, and Jerry Falwell are great examples of that.
 
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Actually, today's christianity is as logical as it was in the 13th century.

"By their fruits you shall know them".

The rock bands I quoted have explicitly admitted to be involved in satanism. You just have to google it. The only argumentation you can make against that is that I did not provide the citations (due to laziness).

Other than that, denying that Led Zep, Hendrix, Beatles, The Doors, Rolling Stones, Robert Johnson (called the "father" of rock n roll), among others, are satanic is simply calling their members liars.

From there onwards, keep doing as much mental gymnastics as you want. Like I said, I was on both sides of the fence: inside and outside the church. Going along the "you don't know how to listen to music" won't work.

Same as the dude above you, who calls me an ignorant while defining Led Zeppelin, the Beatles and Rolling Stones as "proto-metal".

Let's do this. Attempt a refutation that does not kill the messenger (that is called "ad hominem") and then we continue debating. In the meantime, the arguments I presented still stand.

Regards.
 
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Skavau

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APC_Carrier said:
Same as the dude above you, who calls me an ignorant while defining Led Zeppelin, the Beatles and Rolling Stones as "proto-metal".
I did no such thing. The bulk of the bands you mentioned were simply hard rock or proto-metal bands.

Led Zeppelin, by the way, is definitely Hard Rock.

Care to explain how, for example, Progressive Rock is inherently satanic in sound?
 
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Caminator

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Actually, today's christianity is as logical as it was in the 13th century.

"By their fruits you shall know them".

The rock bands I quoted have explicitly admitted to be involved in satanism. You just have to google it. The only argumentation you can make against that is that I did not provide the citations (due to laziness).

Other than that, denying that Led Zep, Hendrix, Beatles, The Doors, Rolling Stones, Robert Johnson (called the "father" of rock n roll), among others, are satanic is simply calling their members liars.

From there onwards, keep doing as much mental gymnastics as you want. Like I said, I was on both sides of the fence: inside and outside the church. Going along the "you don't know how to listen to music" won't work.

Same as the dude above you, who calls me an ignorant while defining Led Zeppelin, the Beatles and Rolling Stones as "proto-metal".

Let's do this. Attempt a refutation that does not kill the messenger (that is called "ad hominem") and then we continue debating. In the meantime, the arguments I presented still stand.

Regards.
I didn't deny that the bands you mentioned were satanic. Artists that deliberately come across as satanic are offensive to me, such as Marilyn Manson, White Zombie, Ozzy, etc.. The lyrics, theme, image portrayed, and intent are what are important.

Christians hear music from bands like X-Sinner and think they are satanic just because they sound like AC/DC. Nothing logical or biblical about that. We have men like that in my church. They won't even listen to the lyrics and judge by them. What is stupid is that they think there's a 'spirit in the music, and rock has a satanic spirit.' Nothing logical or biblical about that either. I'm saying Christians who think that way are stupid. I don't listen to satanic music. I have (seen) the Hell's Bells DVD, and I have no argument with it.
 
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Caminator, watch the conference from Fr. Ripperger.

Rock is satanic because, among other things:
1) rock rhythm is syncopic, it promotes uncontrolled movement and predisposes to sin.
2) rock has its roots in blues and jazz. Both music styles have adopted their rhythm from voodoo rituals, and voodoo is by definition satanic.
3) it was not your average joe at yer church who said that the spirit of rock is satanic. It firstly Plato who argued about the intrinsic spirit of any music, and therefore the power of any piece of music to influence a person's spirit. Having music a spiritual component, it can be deduced that any sort of music has the power to influence our spirit. Rock, as any other music style, has a spiritual nature. Being rock satanic at its roots, rock's spirituality is satanic, therefore leading our spirit into satanism. You can find that in the conference I posted.
4) regardless of a given rock band not being satanic, its resemblance it style with other bands that are truly satanic can lead a person into satanism. It is no secret that many current rock/heavy rock/metal bands have been influenced by the same bands that back in the sixties were satanic.

An average person may start listening to X-sinner and, due to its resemblance with AC DC, continue with this latter band.

Like I said before, I am not a priest or someone who always held a traditional catholic view. You may find it difficult to read or capitalize on what people here have said, but denying the implicit risks will do you a dis-service.

Talking about christian metal is like talking about kosher pork chops.

Take care.
 
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Skavau

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APC_Carrier said:
1) rock rhythm is syncopic, it promotes uncontrolled movement and predisposes to sin.
So...uh, dancing, or moving around to music is sinful?

2) rock has its roots in blues and jazz. Both music styles have adopted their rhythm from voodoo rituals, and voodoo is by definition satanic.
Of course it is not only Rock music you find Satanic.

4) regardless of a given rock band not being satanic, its resemblance it style with other bands that are truly satanic can lead a person into satanism. It is no secret that many current rock/heavy rock/metal bands have been influenced by the same bands that back in the sixties were satanic.
Actually, most bands now are not influenced by those bands. Only influenced in that they play Rock or Metal music. Time has moved on significantly since then.

What exactly do you think the risks of listening to Rock music are? Almost all of the Western World listens to it.
 
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Talking about christian metal is like talking about kosher pork chops.

Take care.

Well, I'm going to find some kosher pork chops and enjoy my Christian heavy metal... with a shot of whisky. That's what I like.
 
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The thing is that there is no such thing as christian rock, in the same way that there is no such thing as satanic gregorian chant.

An appeal to individual and therefore subjective experience does not serve as objective evidence.

If rock is satanic at its roots as Sistrin proved so clearly, then the debate is over. Additionally, a list of the deaths of musicians at the rock n roll scene:

List of deaths in rock and roll - Wikipedia

I know that being wikipedia, it cannot be regarded seriously. However, take a look at the average age of death, it's a disaster. EDIT: now take a look at this.

Life Expectancy and Cause of Death in Popular Musicians: Is the Popular Musician Lifestyle the Road to Ruin? - PubMed - NCBI


Now, come and tell us christians that rock is "that" innocent.
 
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Skavau

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APC_Carrier said:
The thing is that there is no such thing as christian rock, in the same way that there is no such thing as satanic gregorian chant.
Oh yes there is - at least by your standards. I know bands that mix symphonic and gregorian elements with Metal.

APC_Carrier said:
If rock is satanic at its roots as Sistrin proved so clearly, then the debate is over. Additionally, a list of the deaths of musicians at the rock n roll scene:
He didn't, and if you actually examine many of his posts, he wasn't even trying to argue that. He just argued that popular rock music is satanic, not all rock music, and he didn't extend his observations to blues or jazz.

I know that being wikipedia, it cannot be regarded seriously. However, take a look at the average age of death, it's a disaster. EDIT: now take a look at this.
Most Rock bands aren't popular. Your list could easily just be any list on celebrity life expectancy in general.
 
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Hey. Apologies for resurrecting this thread - I thought it would be better than starting a new one, since there's quite a few comments on here already.

Has this ever been settled? Is rock music satanic/demonic or not?

Here's why I'm asking:

I actually have no intention to listen to rock/metal (although I did use to before I was born again back in March of this year). But, the climbing gym I go to sometimes plays rock music. I have no idea what they're playing (to me it sounded like Guns and Roses stylistically wise). I'd say 95% of the time I don't even hear the music, since you usually focus on the climbing or belaying your partner, but there are times like when you gear up or when you climb too close to the speakers when you do hear the music.

Now, I was reading a book on demonology by Derek Prince, and in the book he was saying that rock music opens you up to demons. The example he gave was clearly some strange dark metal song, not Sweet Home Alabama, but, nevertheless, it did plant the 'what if' seed in my mind.

I've done some reading online (that's how I found this thread in the first place) and found the usual reasons given for why rock is 'satanic' (everything from 'rock and roll' is a term for casual sex, so if you listen to rock you'll become an adulterer to rock stars sacrifice children and sell their souls to the devil). The problem is that I'm still not convinced/convicted either way.

So, do you think that simply hearing rock music once in a blue moon (I've only heard it played at this gym once in the 5 times I've been since lockdown has been eased) opens you up to demons?

I thought that one solution would be to wear ear plugs, but if there are, indeed, demons in the music, wouldn't you still be exposed to them (plus you need to be able to communicate with your climbing partner, so this would clearly introduce additional issues).

There is another climbing gym I used to go to, which, I don't think plays rock music (I don't think I've ever heard any when I was going there), but it's 30-40 minutes further away, so that would be an additional hour/hour and a half wasted on just travelling to the gym. I'd rather be doing something productive with my time.

Thanks in advance.
 
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