Why exactly is rock music Satanic?

Rahmemhotep

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I don't believe that it's evil, but it does meet the definition of "of the world" as it was something that wasn't developed by Christians. So if Christians are suppsoed to avoid "things of the world" like music/movies/TV/books then why not maths?

I was trying to let you figure out on your own that math doesn't really fall into this category.
 
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Jadis40

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I've read through this thread, and Caminator has posted some excellent replies. As a Methodist, I might quibble a bit about the claim that Arminians (Personally, I don't like labels, but that's a horse of a different color, and not relevant to this discussion about music) don't care about reason and logic. I think they're vitally important, and I wish people would utilize them more. I've been lamenting this same thing when it comes to music and rock for the past 20+ years.

As a side, I've always found myself annoyed with the Falwells and Van Impes of the world. I.e. any of the big-name tele-evangelists. Even when I was younger, there was something about them that rubbed me the wrong way, and to this day, I tend not to watch TBN or any of the other Christian networks. Throw in Texe Marrs and the aformentioned Gothard and anyone else who takes the easy road of saying that all rock is satanic based on the beat of a song and all this other stuff that I personally find to be complete nonsense. Jeff Godwin and Terry Watkins are two additional examples. One day I was channel surfing and stopped for a bit to watch a sermon. I can't remember who it was or what church or anything about them. One of the things he said, and it's stayed with me, is musical preference is not doctrine.

I still listen to a lot of secular rock and metal, but there are a lot bands that I tend to avoid for the most part (Van Halen is a good example), but others, I've not only bought and still own their CDs, but I've seen them in concert: Rush, Kansas and Dream Theater being three such bands. And when Gigantour with Megadeth came around in 2005 or so, I went to that and saw Symphony X.

What it comes down to this: I find myself wondering how this debate would have gone down if Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart were the topic of discussion. One of the things that I need to point out is that Mozart not only wrote compositions for the Church (the Requiem, for example), but pieces that weren't directly intended for sacred use. I can imagine the cries of "Compromiser!" if he were around and doing the same thing in today's climate. They'd probably say the same thing about Bach.
 
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Rahmemhotep

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You don't make any sense from a biblical standpoint. Have you never read Philippians 4:8? The Bible has a standard of beauty, and we have a responsibility to know it. I did not suggest the application of a subjective standard of beauty. I am suggesting a biblical standard. Your standard of judging music 'by the spirit' is the nonsense I have referred to. There is no precedent in Scripture of judging music by the spirit. That is just subjective, mystical nonsense.

With all due respect I believe you are taking what I've said and what this thread is about out of context.

Let me rephrase: You can not properly judge how good or evil something is based on how beautiful you view it to be. To do so is nonsensical and does not square up with God's Word. Philipians 4:8 in no way contradicts this. This verse is telling you to meditate on things that have these traits (rather than negative things) and how can we know if something fits under these categories? Through the lens of The Word we may judge righteously (which we are indeed called by Jesus Christ Himself to judge righteous judgment) whether something is true, honest, just, pure, lovely, or of good report and to see if there is any virtue or praise in that something. In fact we can easily see from the entire verse of John 7:24 that you should: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Applying this then, should you judge whether a song is holy or evil based on it's sound alone? How good it makes you feel? No! We should judge it based on how God convicts us and what He has clearly said in His Word.
 
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Dave-W

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Dave-W

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What it comes down to this: I find myself wondering how this debate would have gone down if Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart were the topic of discussion.
Good question.

In 1972 I was taking organ lessons from a woman who was the piano and organist at a local Assembly of God. She knew I was a christian and came down hard on me for my selecting some of Bach's music that was in a minor key (specifically the Tocatta and Fugue in Dm) as being "unchristian." She insisted that anything in a minor key meant that the person had a bad relationship with God. She sited communist atheist USSR and the Jewish people as examples.
 
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WannaWitness

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Here is a link I found not too long ago which I had saved in my bookmarks for reference. It is from Enjoying God Ministries, and it deals with "legalism vs. liberty" and the many issues that are often linked to it. I feel I should post it here because music is one of many such issues we deal with as believers. We all need to know how to handle one another, and respect fellow believers whose convictions may differ when it comes to certain theological matters.

http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/liberty-vs--legalism/

Another link I refer to analyzes the music issue alone. It is good food for thought from a music minister's perspective, touching on the function of music in Biblical times, the "sacred vs. secular", "traditional vs. contemporary", and other such disputes, developing a music philosophy, and much more.

https://musingsonmusicinthechurch.wordpress.com/

These are not placed here to change anyone's mind on how they honestly feel convicted regarding music that is okay or is not okay for Christians to listen to. I gave these links merely as different perspectives to chew on so as to better relate to one another regarding this and other debatable theological issues. We all need to remember (and I'm speaking for myself, as well) that any convictions we have regarding "doubtful things" that clearly apart from the truths the Bible is clear on (see Romans 14:1) are just that - convictions - and that although we are to be of the same mind in Christ, that doesn't mean we are always going to agree. However, we should agree to respectfully disagree on these things, as we know that none of the matters we disagreed about on earth are not going to matter when we get to heaven.

Let's let the Lord speak to our hearts as the unique persons that we are, and allow Him to do the leading, working, and shaping of our lives as we serve Him as best we know how. :)
 
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Caminator

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With all due respect I believe you are taking what I've said and what this thread is about out of context.

Let me rephrase: You can not properly judge how good or evil something is based on how beautiful you view it to be. To do so is nonsensical and does not square up with God's Word. Philipians 4:8 in no way contradicts this. This verse is telling you to meditate on things that have these traits (rather than negative things) and how can we know if something fits under these categories? Through the lens of The Word we may judge righteously (which we are indeed called by Jesus Christ Himself to judge righteous judgment) whether something is true, honest, just, pure, lovely, or of good report and to see if there is any virtue or praise in that something. In fact we can easily see from the entire verse of John 7:24 that you should: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Applying this then, should you judge whether a song is holy or evil based on it's sound alone? How good it makes you feel? No! We should judge it based on how God convicts us and what He has clearly said in His Word.

No, I haven't taken anything out of context. I think you've misunderstood the issue of judging something based on a biblical standard. I have not advanced a subjective method of judging music. I insist that if there is a biblical method of judging music, it is objective. It is like a ruler that we would use to measure the length of a pencil. If I have a ruler handy, I will not argue about the length of the pencil. I will measure it, and show the ruler and pencil to someone who disagrees with me. Then there is no argument. The same must be the case with music. A musicology department at a university would suffice in this regard. Since I am not musically inclined, and have no education in music, I am not qualified to make such judgements about music. I will also insist that if an esthetic method of judging the quality of music is invalid for Christian, or biblical, purposes, then God has NOT equipped us to judge what music pleases Him, nor what is appropriate for a Christian to listen to, and we are wasting our time debating it. Judging anything 'by the spirit' is not valid in a biblical context because it is subjective, and biblical knowledge is objective.

To bring greater clarity concerning my position on the relevance and authority of the Bible in discussions such as this, I cite Chapter 1:6 of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

6. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.a Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding (as well as for the sanctification of the believer) of such things as are revealed in the Word;b and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.c

I will give an illustration here from my own life to make this clear:

In 2001, Tool released the album Lateralus, which included the song Schism. Schism was played on the radio a lot, and I loved it, so I bought the CD from the music store. I brought it home and listened to the whole thing. While I loved Schism, there were other tracks on the disc that I found very disturbing. I got the impression that these might have been recorded specifically for an occultist to use in some satanic ritual. I felt grieved in my heart by these tracks and felt that I should not keep the CD, so I returned it to the store for a refund. I just went through more than half the album on Google looking for those tracks, because I wanted to list them here by name. As I was listening, I thought, "What in the world was I talking about back then?" I couldn't identify the tracks I had concerns about, and I gave up. It was about 15 years ago after all.

You might say that I judged the music 'by the spirit' back then, and I don't object to that. But here's the rub: I will not tell anyone else that any of Tool's music is satanic, or that 'you' shouldn't listen to it because music like that is used to conjure up evil spirits. What I felt in my heart in 2002 or so, is between me and God. It is not between me and you. I don't regret returning the CD, because I was being faithful to a conviction I thought I had at the time. We all have to be faithful with the understanding we have before God at any given time. Paul, in Romans 14, says we are answerable to our conscience before God. Or we are answerable to God concerning our conscience and what we did with it. Even if I was wrong, and a thing is objectively right before God, I would be wrong to partake.

What I object to in the full gospel movement is that convictions such as this become effectively inscripturated in the church. An experience of being grieved in one's spirit by something becomes part of the body of knowledge in Christian circles, and the authority of Scripture is undermined, whether you realize it or not. You might have the same feeling from the music of Red that I had with Tool, so then you go tell your friends that Red is devil music, or that it doesn't please God, or whatever. This behavior is dangerously close to heresy.

God, in His Word, has given us all things that pertain to godliness, so the WCF says, and Peter in 2 Peter 1:3. God has not equipped us to obtain the knowledge of the things of God apart from His Word.

The father of American pragmatism, William James, held religious meetings where he solicited public accounts of religious experiences from the members. These experiences were written down and considered to be authoritative records of the works of God in the lives of 'believers.' Alcoholics Anonymous was birthed in this environment, and James had an undeniable and catastrophic impact on the Evangelical church in the early 20th Century. Undoubtedly, Pentecostalism would not be what it is today were it not for William James and Friedrich Schleiermacher. Christianity has seen no greater tools of Satan in the last 200 years than these two devils. Karl Marx pales by comparison. At least true Christians have roundly rejected Marx. James and Schleiermacher have been given the pulpit in the most conservative and well meaning churches all around the world and still occupy it to this day. Their satanic philosophies have thoroughly corrupted whole aspects of church teaching, and Christians are completely blind to their deceptions. Of course, until you read a little bit about what they taught, you won't recognize their error in your own beliefs, or in your favorite preachers and authors.

The point is that the Pentecostal notion of subjective judgement - 'judging by the spirit' - follows in the footsteps of William James.

I have believed that I heard from God many times. It isn't until years later when I look back that I realize that God had nothing to do with those thoughts at that time. Around the age of 14, I was certain that God had called me to be a Big Brother to a young kid in that organization, and that this would come true around the age of 21. It never happened.

We need to be careful about what we think we hear from God. Being careful means not speaking of it to others. It means leaving others and their lives and decisions with God. It means that your convictions don't get collected together with those of other believers to be counted as wisdom from God. I may have acted on God's wisdom when I brought that CD back, but that was just for me. You may feel like Satan has entered the room if X-Sinner is played in your presence. That is just for you. It is careless and irresponsible for you, or your pastor, to make that public and warn others not to listen to X-Sinner. The pulpit is holy and is for the Word of God. The Word of God belongs there. A man who fears God and pursues holiness will not defile the pulpit with 'revelations of the Spirit', as if the sheep need to hear them alongside the Word.
 
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Skavau

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Correct. The guys in DT have brains. The guys in Van Halen do not. Talk about 'judging by the spirit', when I hear VH it grieves my spirit. I feel like I'm at a party with drunks and loose women. Mindless men singing about a base, empty life. Whoever wrote DT's songs, I could sit with them and talk about the Bible and life for 3 hours, and I know they would be respectful and honorable towards good things. Heck, Jesus Himself would be blessed to sit with them. Even when they drop an f-bomb, like in 'Honor Thy Father', they are showing an appreciation for honor and righteousness, and what it means to be a good parent.

When I talk about judging music by esthetics, I mean that the real value in music is in its architecture and arrangement, like you see in Beethoven. By this standard, some classical music would fail, and a lot of rock would fail, but passing or failing the standard would have nothing to do with being rock or not rock. DT would pass with flying colors, as would most of prog, and Rush and Kansas. And Yes too. Rock isn't the issue. The issue is the quality of the music itself. Present a song to a professor of music at a university for his academic opinion and you're off to a good start.

Are you suggesting that God is a musical elitist and that Christians should avoid 'simplistic' or less 'cultured' sounds?
 
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Caminator

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Are you suggesting that God is a musical elitist and that Christians should avoid 'simplistic' or less 'cultured' sounds?
I don't know how God could be an elitist. He calls His people out of bondage, and away from carnality and vanity. That's not elitist. Christians should avoid forms of entertainment which glorify sinful and vain living. My preference for DT is not so much about the music as about the lyrics. If VH focused on more wholesome things I would enjoy them more, but I don't want to listen to music that has a focus on sex and drunkenness.

Ephesians 4:
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
VH's music is lewd. I don't want to feed my mind with lewdness.
 
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Rahmemhotep

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Here is a link I found not too long ago which I had saved in my bookmarks for reference. It is from Enjoying God Ministries, and it deals with "legalism vs. liberty" and the many issues that are often linked to it. I feel I should post it here because music is one of many such issues we deal with as believers. We all need to know how to handle one another, and respect fellow believers whose convictions may differ when it comes to certain theological matters.

http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/liberty-vs--legalism/

Another link I refer to analyzes the music issue alone. It is good food for thought from a music minister's perspective, touching on the function of music in Biblical times, the "sacred vs. secular", "traditional vs. contemporary", and other such disputes, developing a music philosophy, and much more.

https://musingsonmusicinthechurch.wordpress.com/

These are not placed here to change anyone's mind on how they honestly feel convicted regarding music that is okay or is not okay for Christians to listen to. I gave these links merely as different perspectives to chew on so as to better relate to one another regarding this and other debatable theological issues. We all need to remember (and I'm speaking for myself, as well) that any convictions we have regarding "doubtful things" that clearly apart from the truths the Bible is clear on (see Romans 14:1) are just that - convictions - and that although we are to be of the same mind in Christ, that doesn't mean we are always going to agree. However, we should agree to respectfully disagree on these things, as we know that none of the matters we disagreed about on earth are not going to matter when we get to heaven.

Let's let the Lord speak to our hearts as the unique persons that we are, and allow Him to do the leading, working, and shaping of our lives as we serve Him as best we know how. :)

This is exactly the same thing I've been saying and I have brought up Romans 14:1 in conversations about this numerous times. Please forgive me as I haven't watched the videos, but what you've said in your post is the same as what I've said and what the Bible says and that is good and encouraging.
 
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Rahmemhotep

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No, I haven't taken anything out of context. I think you've misunderstood the issue of judging something based on a biblical standard.

2 Timothy 2:14-16 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Look, I must respectfully inform you that I will not continue this conversation. I ask that you simply consider what I've already said as it is enough. I will not wrangle over words with you.
 
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WannaWitness

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This is exactly the same thing I've been saying and I have brought up Romans 14:1 in conversations about this numerous times. Please forgive me as I haven't watched the videos, but what you've said in your post is the same as what I've said and what the Bible says and that is good and encouraging.

Yes!
 
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Caminator

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Look, I must respectfully inform you that I will not continue this conversation. I ask that you simply consider what I've already said as it is enough. I will not wrangle over words with you.
Since we obviously can't agree on a biblical criteria for judging music, there is nothing to discuss.

This is how it always goes. Popular preachers have thundered against rock n roll for 55 years, like Jack van Impe and Jimmy Swaggart, but none have ever bothered to explain why they believe what they believe. They never show us the standard they are using, so we can see if we agree with it, or so we can use it too. Followers just parrot their ramblings mindlessly. I've never heard a teaching on judging music 'by the spirit.' Pentecostals just say to do it. No wonder the world mocks Christianity. It is well deserved.

Edit: One other thing; John Robbins used to tell me "The difference between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians can explain why they believe what they believe." In other words, Christians are rational. One thing I never get in a discussion with a Christian about music is an explanation.
 
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Dave-W

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Popular preachers have thundered against rock n roll for 55 years, like Jack van Impe and Jimmy Swaggart, but none have ever bothered to explain why they believe what they believe. They never show us the standard they are using,
OTOH, Bill Gothard gave EXACTLY what he used to judge music, including keys, chord structures, time signatures and historical origins of all of the above.

Swaggart, Impe et al just used Gothard's research.

I do NOT agree with Gothard at all.
 
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Caminator

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OTOH, Bill Gothard gave EXACTLY what he used to judge music, including keys, chord structures, time signatures and historical origins of all of the above.

Swaggart, Impe et al just used Gothard's research.

I do NOT agree with Gothard at all.
I went to 4 Basic Youth conferences when I was a teen. A musician in The Chalcedon Report refuted Gothard's criteria. I wanted to save the issues, but I have packrat problems. Now I need the material and don't have it. I respect Chalcedon for developing the kinds of criteria that I demand, but I'm not a Reconstructionist.

I guess I have to respect Gothard for at least making an attempt at a coherent system, even though he was wrong. He went beyond anyone else.

It is typical of Arminians in general, and Pentecostals in particular, to jump to a conclusion and then try to fabricate premises to complete their syllogism only if pressed. If they are not pressed, they just keep repeating their conclusion without premises. Pretty much all the popular ministries over the past 40 years have been run that way. The exceptions are men like MacArthur, Sproul, and others they associate with.
 
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FreakOnALeash

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I mean, why are Christian rock bands bad? Because they still use that sign that apparently means "Hail Satan?" Where does it say that the sign means hail Satan? Because it apparently looks like a couple of horns? I can think of many other hand gestures that exist that look like a pair of horns, are they all evil? And if it did, why does that matter? Because it mostly means "rock on" now.

LOL, Norwegan satanic black metal is probably something that christains might find offenisive, idk, but I know of lots of christain Rock/metal bands. This sort of reminds me of a time I let my mom come a long to one of my gigs, I'm a singer and my band was opening a venue for a charity concert for cancer and all the money from tickets went to charity, before we opened I showed my mom how to do the heavy metal sign (hail Satan horns) so we walked out on stage and as everyone (approx 500 people who didn't know who the hell we were and were hearing us for the first take for the sake of cancer) Everone raised their horns to Satan, as I turned to the side of the stage my mom was the ONLY one raising her hand to the f* telephone! Epic FAIL. Who gets Hail Satans heavy metal horns sign, mixed up with the telephone sign, oh well...... I'm pretty sure your be fine with most bands even Maralyn Manson did Personal Jesus.
 
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Rahmemhotep

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I'm pretty sure your be fine with most bands even Maralyn Manson did Personal Jesus.

Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus. Marilyn Manson covered it. Look up the lyrics to that song, it has nothing to do with Jesus. It's talking about making an idol out of the singer ('speaker', if you will) and is rather sexually suggestive.
 
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FreakOnALeash

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Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus. Marilyn Manson covered it. Look up the lyrics to that song, it has nothing to do with Jesus. It's talking about making an idol out of the singer ('speaker', if you will) and is rather sexually suggestive.

I know Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus and Marilyn Manson covered it...... The very first version I heard of Personal Jesus was by Depeche Mode, but I thought it was to do with Jesus (the guy from the bible not any singer) I did look up the lyrics, still sounds like it's about Jesus, I'm not sure what you mean about 'sexually suggestive' Are you referring to the music videos? If so which one.... The one by Depeche Mode or Marilyn Manson as both music videos have women in...... Lyrically though, I think it talks about Jesus, I can't hear anything about making an idol out of the singer........
 
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BookofMatt

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I know Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus and Marilyn Manson covered it...... The very first version I heard of Personal Jesus was by Depeche Mode, but I thought it was to do with Jesus (the guy from the bible not any singer) I did look up the lyrics, still sounds like it's about Jesus, I'm not sure what you mean about 'sexually suggestive' Are you referring to the music videos? If so which one.... The one by Depeche Mode or Marilyn Manson as both music videos have women in...... Lyrically though, I think it talks about Jesus, I can't hear anything about making an idol out of the singer........

Rahmemhotep did hit the nail on the head a bit. The song was actually inspired by Priscilla Presley's book 'Elvis and Me' and the one-sided and unbalanced adulation/idolization of a partner in a relationship; the idols we make out of our obsessions, be it with pop stars or with our lovers.

However, Martin Gore's lyrics are usually intended to be open to interpretation. "Personal Jesus" can be interpreted as being about the Biblical Jesus (Johnny Cash thought so when he recorded his version), but I've also commonly heard people say it's a song against religion, or a song about drug addiction, or even a song about phone sex. There's really no "correct" answer.
 
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