"Why don't you eat babies?"

[Omni314]

First off, hello, long time reader first time poster.

In a recent conversation with a christian friend of mine about morals, he asked "since you don't have a basis for morals why don't you just go around eating babies?" this may sound extreme or confrontational but we're good friends so I wasn't worried or anything. I explained my reasoning, and the day continued.

I wasn't until a moment ago that I wondered what would stop him, murder obviously is wrong as it's in the commandments and against the golden rule, but those already dead. I remembered from years and years ago a docmentry I saw about Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571 where the the catholic church said they had committed no sin by eating the flesh of the dead.

But I feel you would have more knowledge of the bible than I so, your thoughts?

 

[bling]

I think your friend was suggesting killing and eating babies. Scripture does not condemn the eating of human flesh, but we do not have any examples in scripture.

The question of morals being totally relative would allow anything I assume?
What would be your grounds for condemning a tribe from killing and eatting the babies of their enemies?

 

[Omni314]

I think your friend was suggesting killing and eating babies.

He was, but my thoughts went further

Scripture does not condemn the eating of human flesh, but we do not have any examples in scripture.

It sounds like you have contradicted yourself, if not may I have the verses.

The question of morals being totally relative would allow anything I assume?

It is possible.

What would be your grounds for condemning a tribe from killing and eatting the babies of their enemies?

I'll assume you mean "to killing and eating".
To please a dictator that was gave me the ultimatum of eat their babies or I'll nuke New York. It may sound extreme and unlikely but so is me killing and eating a baby.

 

[aiki]

I wasn't until a moment ago that I wondered what would stop him, murder obviously is wrong as it's in the commandments and against the golden rule, but those already dead.

What would stop your friend from eating those already dead? Eeew! The same things likely that would stop you or me (I hope): the fact that it was a human being, an instinctive revulsion at the thought of doing so, the smell, flies, rot, etc.

I remembered from years and years ago a docmentry I saw about Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571 where the the catholic church said they had committed no sin by eating the flesh of the dead.

I think it was soccer team that crash landed in the Andes, right? A terrible situation.

But I feel you would have more knowledge of the bible than I so, your thoughts?

I don't know of any verse which explicitly prohibits eating a dead person. It seems to me, though, that simple human empathy would dictate not eating another person - unless, like the people stranded in the Andes, there were some extreme circumstance that made it unavoidable. The Bible commands us to love one another, which, it seems to me, would mean not eating other people.

Selah.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, the implication of his question was that knowing God provides a sound motivation to do the right thing, where for non-theists there's no completely rational reason to be good.

I have mixed feelings about this argument. I know plenty of non-Christians who do the right thing because it's the right thing. I'm not sure they have wonderful theoretical explanations for why they do that. But I think many people believe that the world will be better and more pleasant to live in if people help each other.

Of course from a purely rational point of view you could argue: sure the world will be better if people generally do the right thing, but my own decisions don't produce that much of an effect, so even though I want everyone else to be good, I can do whatever I want as long as I'm not caught. I don't think there's a completely convincing rational argument for why a non-Christian shouldn't take that kind of position. But really, most people realize that if you want to live in a good world, you have a responsibility to help maintain it. They don't necessarily need the threat of hell to maintain that. And I don't think being a predator is that much fun anyway.

And most of the Christians that I know don't live that much in fear of hell anyway. Apparently during the medieval period, the next world was something people thought about all the time, that they feared, and that could motivate them. I'm not sure this is true even of most Christians today. And in fact I think Jesus tried to inspire more than throw fear into people. He did use judgment to give lazy followers a kick in the pants now and then. But he believed that our primary motivation should be love of God and our neighbor.

But I'm an inclusivist. I accept non-Christians who are committed to good as fellow travelers, and I suspect that God is at work in their lives whether they know it or not. Of course I'd love to see you realize God's influence. I think it would make you more effective.

I will say however that as the influence of traditional Christianity and morals fades, a certain kind of virtue does seem to be fading with it. Non-Christians today generally believe in being pleasant, at helping other people, at supporting good causes, etc. However when things get really rough and you have to make decisions about honesty, I fear many people today do the wrong thing. Unfortunately this includes Christians. I suppose Wall Street was a worse situation than average. But I'm not sure how many of us would have done better than the folks there did if given those opportunities. Our current society really does require a reasonable degree of honesty to stay alive. And that kind of hard virtue is a more difficult to maintain than general niceness. I wish I could say that Christians did a much better job in that area, but I fear very much that it has more to do with the values your parents instill than whether you believe in hell (though I've seen reference to a recent study that seems to show the belief in hell actually is important for maintaing virtue).

 

[Believe the Impossible]

I think that when the Bible is silent on certain issues common sense and the Holy Spirit lead us to the correct decisions that are pleasing to God. No, we are not to murder, but if a child is already dead, then the issue, having been a silent one, imo, would not condemn a person, but would remain a situation between God and that person, He judging on a case by case basis of the heart of faith. But, there are verses in the Bible which do speak of this scenario and it seems more a curse and punishment; a situation God allows that is so desperate that even the most seemingly innocent will indeed eat their own children. For those who feel that God's wrath sits only with his enemies can now realize that He is much harsher on those who betray Him. Israel has been and is the example to us all:

2 Peter 2:17-22
(NIV1984)
17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Ezekiel 5:8-12
(NIV1984)
8 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10 Therefore in your midst fathers will eat their children, and children will eat their fathers. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds. 11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. 12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

It seems that once God has dropped His hand of protection then whatever resides on the earth will overtake them to the point of such desperation that He 'allows' His people to do such detestable things. He allows their sins to overcome them and it is their punishment. He allows them to ruin and destroy themselves through their own sin nature and they will have to depend on their gods of 'wood and stone' to save them. And we all know that wood and stone do not save.

Deuteronomy 28:48-68
(NIV1984)
48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the Lord sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the Lord your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name —the Lord your God— 59 the Lord will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God. 63 Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The Lord will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

Discussion? What do you all think about these scriptures? Is it forbidding one to eat the flesh of humans or is it such a despicable act that it shows how depraved the human nature truly is when God withdraws Himself from those who once knew Him and betray Him. God states that it is something He has never allowed or will allow again and I speculate that this is the withdrawing of His protective hand to such a dire situation. He also states it is done in the "site of the nations" and this seems like He is showing the world that if He can do this to His own 'children', then all should turn to Him. I am no expert on the topic, nor have I ever cared to look into such things as cannibalism or studied these scriptures at length. Your thoughts would be interesting.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While there is given no express commandment, "Thou shalt not commit cannibalism", rather consistently it is portrayed as a terrible, terrible event. It is viewed as shockingly horrible, graphic, and obscene: E.g. "See, O LORD, and consider! To whom have You done this? Should the women eat their offspring, The children they have cuddled? Should the priest and prophet be slain In the sanctuary of the Lord?" (Lamentations 2:20) In this passage, the prophet Jeremiah is lamenting the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians, he is witness to the great calamity around him. Similar language and a similar tone is used in various other places, such as in Leviticus 26:29 and Ezekiel 5:10.

The assumption, therefore, seems to be that resorting to cannibalism is a gross and unnatural circumstance. A position one would never want to be forced into, due to the sacredness of human life (and of the human body). Since man, above the rest of the animal kingdom, has been created in the image and likeness of God.

Now this argument is attempting to make a biblical point, rather than say a biological one. A biological argument is also possible: that cannibalism isn't particularly well suited evolutionarily speaking. My understanding (and it could be in error) is that we require nutrients from other sources, which we get from fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, and animal meat. Consuming human flesh is not as nutritionally viable, and as such hasn't been part of our evolutionary adaptation. Granted, there have and do exist societies where cannibalism does feature, these seem to be on the rare end and seem to be highly ritualized rather than biologically necessitated; most societies regard human flesh as taboo. So that's a possible argument on biological/anthropological grounds (which may or may not be entirely accurate and I invite correction).

I would also point out that the underlying notion, that atheists have no good reason to be moral or ethical isn't a position I share. The simple fact is that irreligious people are not out and about committing gross acts of moral perversion anymore than religious people are. I also don't view religion as any sort of guarantee that one is more likely to be a moral person. There definitely will be disagreements between the religious and the irreligious over what constitutes right and wrong in many instances; but as a whole functioning societies generally exist within a framework of understood parameters of right and wrong in regard to some of the bigger questions.

I would also point out that I don't believe the point of Christianity is to be "more moral", but rather to be part of God's redemptive and creative work. Christ's teachings do demand that we follow a difficult and lofty ethical ideal that we say is most certainly good, the highest good even; but that ethical calling is part of a much larger program of human activity in which we are to be instruments of Christ in the lost and dark spaces of the world, to be salt and light. Not as though we are more righteous than others, not that we are better or more moral; but that we have been given a Way to strive and a Calling to commit to, not for our own self-betterment, but for the betterment of our neighbor-other.

-CryptoLutheran