Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

Root of Jesse

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My assertion was the man of God may be complete through Scripture. I don't consider the Bible incomplete, God has revealed that which we need. Some may feel you can add to the Word of God, but I'll kindly disagree.
You haven't added to it, you've subtracted. You're missing 7 books. Besides that, Tradition does not add to Scripture, it explains it, puts it in context. It's not like God dictated the Bible, and then shut up for 2000 years. He still speaks through His Church today.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”
Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”
Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.

13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Jesus NEVER said "Write this down", except in Revelation, to John, specifically.
 
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You haven't added to it, you've subtracted. You're missing 7 books. Besides that, Tradition does not add to Scripture, it explains it, puts it in context. It's not like God dictated the Bible, and then shut up for 2000 years. He still speaks through His Church today.
I disagree, you have added to it. Scripture defines it's own context, tradition does not dictate scriptural proof. Are you claiming the Gospels and the teachings of Christ were sub-par because God decides to change the criteria for salvation?

So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?

Yes, God speaks through the universal Church in His body of believers, not a particular one.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I disagree, you have added to it. Scripture defines it's own context, tradition does not dictate scriptural proof. Are you claiming the Gospels and the teachings of Christ were sub-par because God decides to change the criteria for salvation?

So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?

Yes, God speaks through the universal Church in His body of believers, not a particular one.
For nearly 1200 years, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, Judith and 1 and 2 Maccabees were part of the Bible. The Reformation came, and you removed them.
Regarding the Assumption of Mary, I can show examples of others who were assumed into heaven, and why we believe Mary among that group. Can you show somewhere where it says that nobody can be assumed into heaven?
Universal. Catholic. Thanks for making my point.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You lost me here, what does this in any way have to do with that you replied to?
Jesus didn't write, he didn't command anyone to write. He did command them to preach, to speak, to do. In other words, the Christian faith is not a religion of the book, as it seems you believe. The Bible is a guide for our faith, but not the be-all.
 
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For nearly 1200 years, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, Judith and 1 and 2 Maccabees were part of the Bible. The Reformation came, and you removed them.
Regarding the Assumption of Mary, I can show examples of others who were assumed into heaven, and why we believe Mary among that group. Can you show somewhere where it says that nobody can be assumed into heaven?
Universal. Catholic. Thanks for making my point.
For nearly 1800 years you have been anti-Semitic, shall we assume this is correct then?

Since the books of Apocrypha were already in existence at the time of Jesus, yet they are never regarded as Scripture makes your position questionable.

New Testament writings and the Old Testament were all regarded as Scripture, referencing is made to the three fold division of; Law, Prophets & Writings in the Hebrew Bible. Now both the Jewish community and the Church at large denied your writings as being inspired. Further, Jesus or the Apostles never quote from those books as divine authority. In fact, later additions to the canon seem more in line with supporting doctrines peculiar to you such as purgatory.

Some of these books, just the same as writings by Church fathers and historians are good for background to events in History, not to divine authority or guidance.

I like how you avoided my question. I'll repeat it in vain hope - So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?

Universal. Catholic. Means what exactly? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is not part of the universal Body of Christ?

As a note, we are not here to argue about the Canon, but that God provided us with all we need for salvation.
 
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Jesus didn't write, he didn't command anyone to write. He did command them to preach, to speak, to do. In other words, the Christian faith is not a religion of the book, as it seems you believe. The Bible is a guide for our faith, but not the be-all.
So the Apostles shouldn't have wasted their time. They were sent out to preach the Gospel of salvation, but forgot to mention the basics to achieving that salvation in the Gospels? Hardly...
 
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Root of Jesse

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For nearly 1800 years you have been anti-Semitic, shall we assume this is correct then?
Just because you say so doesn't make it so. It's a lie that the Church was anti-Semitic.
Since the books of Apocrypha were already in existence at the time of Jesus, yet they are never regarded as Scripture makes your position questionable.
Not questionable at all. The Jews had no Canon of Scripture until after the Catholic Church did. Because of the Catholic Church's position, they chose the Hebrew canon. But why should we pay attention to what the Jews think-they don't think Jesus is God.
New Testament writings and the Old Testament were all regarded as Scripture, referencing is made to the three fold division of; Law, Prophets & Writings in the Hebrew Bible. Now both the Jewish community and the Church at large denied your writings as being inspired. Further, Jesus or the Apostles never quote from those books as divine authority. In fact, later additions to the canon seem more in line with supporting doctrines peculiar to you such as purgatory.
Not so. Ecclesiastes is never referenced, yet it is Canon. Jesus never quotes Ecclesiastes, either, nor do the Apostles.
Some of these books, just the same as writings by Church fathers and historians are good for background to events in History, not to divine authority or guidance.
That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it.
I like how you avoided my question. I'll repeat it in vain hope - So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?
I answered the real question. The Assumption of Mary is Biblical. Regarding the other part, there's no dogma or doctrine in the Bible. The Church used the Bible to create her doctrines and dogmas.
Universal. Catholic. Means what exactly? Are you saying that the Catholic Church is not part of the universal Body of Christ?
Read for comprehension, why don't you. Catholic mean universal. The Catholic Church is universal.
As a note, we are not here to argue about the Canon, but that God provided us with all we need for salvation.
God did, but it's not all in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible, for example.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So the Apostles shouldn't have wasted their time. They were sent out to preach the Gospel of salvation, but forgot to mention the basics to achieving that salvation in the Gospels? Hardly...
Right. Hardly. That's what Sacred Tradition is.
 
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FireDragon76

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I see the Bible as a starting place to learn some basic truths about God, specifically about Jesus (because that's the whole point in the end). But I don't see the Bible as everything the Christian may ever need to be faithful to God. There's some things the Bible is not.

Just an example: the Bible, for instance, says to honor your parents, but it doesn't really tell you alot about how to do so explicitly. You have to look to other scriptures and read them allegorically or in a way other than the plain sense, you have to use scholarship to understand the context of the writers, or you have to use reason and theology, or your own experience, or all of the above. That's an example of how the Bible alone is not fully sufficient. The material sufficiency is there, but the formal sufficiency is not necessarily.
 
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Just because you say so doesn't make it so. It's a lie that the Church was anti-Semitic.
I'm sorry but it's very well established this is true.
Not questionable at all. The Jews had no Canon of Scripture until after the Catholic Church did. Because of the Catholic Church's position, they chose the Hebrew canon. But why should we pay attention to what the Jews think-they don't think Jesus is God.
Jesus learnt from the scriptures where? which were they? Did he not learn in the synagogues?
I answered the real question. The Assumption of Mary is Biblical. Regarding the other part, there's no dogma or doctrine in the Bible. The Church used the Bible to create her doctrines and dogmas.
Once again, you skirt around the question. - So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?

I am not asking if the Assumption of Mary is Biblical, what I am asking is - do you assert that accepting that is a prerequisite for salvation.
Read for comprehension, why don't you. Catholic mean universal. The Catholic Church is universal.
I can comprehend truth, what I choose not to is the assertion that the Catholic church is universal and no other church exists.
God did, but it's not all in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible, for example.
I disagree, the concept of the Trinity is evident.

Really, I don't want to argue.
 
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I see the Bible as a starting place to learn some basic truths about God, specifically about Jesus (because that's the whole point in the end). But I don't see the Bible as everything the Christian may ever need to be faithful to God. There's some things the Bible is not.

Just an example: the Bible, for instance, says to honor your parents, but it doesn't really tell you alot about how to do so explicitly. You have to look to other scriptures and read them allegorically or in a way other than the plain sense, you have to use scholarship to understand the context of the writers, or you have to use reason and theology, or your own experience, or all of the above. That's an example of how the Bible alone is not fully sufficient. The material sufficiency is there, but the formal sufficiency is not necessarily.
I agree in part with you. I am not saying tradition is not important, or that the Church does not have it's place.

Really, the bone of contention here is that people are denying scriptures provide that which is essential for salvation. Now I'm not talking about the Christian life, I am speaking purely of what is needed to be saved.

Also, the work of the Holy Spirit is not for one set denomination, it's workings are in the whole body of believers.
 
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lesliedellow

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What Bible? Not all Bibles are chopped down to 66 books

If you are suggesting that something in the deutero-canonical literature justifies the belief, maybe you would care to expand.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'm sorry but it's very well established this is true.
Show me your well-established proof.
Jesus learnt from the scriptures where? which were they? Did he not learn in the synagogues?

Once again, you skirt around the question. - So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?
No, Baptism saves you. That's a doctrine.
I am not asking if the Assumption of Mary is Biblical, what I am asking is - do you assert that accepting that is a prerequisite for salvation.
I never said that. It is for Catholics.
I can comprehend truth, what I choose not to is the assertion that the Catholic church is universal and no other church exists.
Jesus established only one Church.
I disagree, the concept of the Trinity is evident.
But the doctrine is not.
Really, I don't want to argue.[/QUOTE]And yet you are!
 
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Root of Jesse

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I agree in part with you. I am not saying tradition is not important, or that the Church does not have it's place.

Really, the bone of contention here is that people are denying scriptures provide that which is essential for salvation. Now I'm not talking about the Christian life, I am speaking purely of what is needed to be saved.

Also, the work of the Holy Spirit is not for one set denomination, it's workings are in the whole body of believers.
Nobody is denying this, just that it is the only essential for salvation
 
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FireDragon76

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Once again, you skirt around the question. - So defining dogmatic faith as a prerequisite for salvation, such as the assumption of Mary is God breathed?

I'm guessing most Catholics understand the idea of believing in dogma as something that is just accepted and not contradicted. I doubt it means a person must understand the doctrines before they are saved. Catholics don't seem to believe understanding is necessary for salvation, since they baptize infants, and baptism regeneration is a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

The point of the dogma is that it clarifies what is, and is not, a matter of private opinion. In the Roman Catholic church, you are not free to disagree with the assumption or the immaculate conception, without departing from the faith. You are free to disagree about other things in conscience.
used to be considered dogmas,
 
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I never said that. It is for Catholics.
So Catholics have a different set of rules to other believers?
Jesus established only one Church.
Indeed the universal Church of believers. Are you in a position to speak of that which God views as His or not?
But the doctrine is not.
I disagree.
And yet you are!
Just defending believers around the world you claim are not part of the Church.
 
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FireDragon76

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Now I'm not talking about the Christian life, I am speaking purely of what is needed to be saved.

If we take the Protestant argument that the faith that saves is a lively faith, the problem with going with "the Bible only" is that there may be things that God has "prepared for us to do" (to look at it from the Reformed perspective), which are not easily found in the Bible. Meaning what we must do to be saved, "believe" in Jesus, of course, is not so simple to live out. The concrete manifestation of that belief in terms of what we do with it, is going to be different for each individuals. Salvation is really something we have to work out, or rather, live out, for it to be real (hence the controversy over Pietism vs. the wooden orthodoxy in Germany in the 17th century, the Pietist had a more biblical understanding of justification, many of the orthodox turned the doctrine into an idol that overthrew good works altogether).

This same argument applies to created means. Christianity was never meant to be a minimalist religion where we put God inside a little box called "church" or "religion", where we go to church on sunday and believe for a few hours, where we confine God speaking to us to a single book made out of wood pulp, leather, and ink. In many ways, the Catholics understand this through their incarnational theology and spirituality, and many of the practices Protestants criticize are a reflection of that theology.
 
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If we take the Protestant argument that the faith that saves is a lively faith, the problem with going with "the Bible only" is that there may be things that God has "prepared for us to do" (to look at it from the Reformed perspective), that the Bible is not going to be much help at all.
I think that's far from the truth. The Bible is filled with advice and examples dealing with what a believer ought to do with his time and his life.
 
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