Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

[BobRyan]

Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible? Purgatory and the associated indulgences system is not found in the Bible - and yet if this purgatory-and-indulgences system is to be the main concern for truly compassionate family members and friends when a loved one dies - then certain it would get mentioned a few times and the importance of helping out a loved one while in this not-quite-heaven-but-in-torment state would be emphasized for the sincere Christian.

It is not mentioned - and what is more a counter-system a contrasting- picture is given in the Bible - one that contradicts purgatory in every way.

1 Thess 4 "Therefore comfort one another with these words" - this is the comfort for Christians on the subject of a loved one that has passed away. It is entirely focused on the resurrection - not on purgatory-helpout-efforts.

The entire focus is on the resurrection.

1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 5 Jesus describes two resurrections one for the righteous "A resurrection of life" and one for the wicked. But no purgatory. Even the wicked will not suffer until that resurrection of damnation/condemnation subjected to what John calls the '2nd death' in Rev 20.

Peter said to fix our hope entirely on the 2nd coming event - and the associated resurrection.

1 Peter 1:13
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


The resurrection is the focus of the NT church. Not fictional purgatory.

In 2Tim 4 Paul looks forward to the 2nd coming and resurrection at which point he will receive his reward.

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

"Let not your heart be troubled... I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3.

Phil 3 Paul does everything possible "in order that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" the correct resurrection of the two mentioned in John 5 and also in Rev 20:1-5.


No wonder in Matt 22 Christ argues in favor of the future resurrection.

So then - why would anyone want to believe in Purgatory??

in Christ,

Bob

_____________

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your argument seems to hinge on an assumed belief in soul sleep. Which, of course most Christians don't accept because a) it's not biblical and b) it's completely foreign to the history of the faith.

So for us who believe in the resurrection of the dead on the last day, and in the interim between death and resurrection we rest with the Lord, your argument is simply a no-go.

As such your argument against the idea of purgatory doesn't work for us, even those of us who don't believe in purgatory.

So you may want to try and find a different argument if you plan on trying to argue with people who aren't Adventists; otherwise you're just preaching to your own choir.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument seems to hinge on an assumed belief in soul sleep.

My argument is in 3 areas.

1. The Bible can be believed.
2. There is no mention or focus on either Puragatory or indulgences in the Bible.
3. The NT focus for the saints is entirely on the resurrection as the texts themselves show.

So the question remains - why would anyone want to believe in the suffering and torment of Purgatory instead of just going with what we have in the Bible?

Anyone who reads these texts in the Bible could easily ask the same questions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[topcare]

What Bible? Not all Bibles are chopped down to 66 books

 

[ViaCrucis]

My argument is in 3 areas.

1. The Bible can be believed.
2. There is no mention or focus on either Puragatory or indulgences in the Bible.
3. The NT focus for the saints is entirely on the resurrection as the texts themselves show.

So the question remains - why would anyone want to believe in the suffering and torment of Purgatory instead of just going with what we have in the Bible?

Anyone who reads these texts in the Bible could easily ask the same questions.

in Christ,

Bob

Those who believe in purgatory (Roman Catholics) don't have any problem with the texts you provide because, as you should know, all Roman Catholics confess both the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds which, rather explicitly, mention the resurrection of the dead.

So attempting to present the resurrection of the dead as proof against purgatory is just going to sound like gibberish to a believing Roman Catholic.

So maybe you'd like to reconstruct your argument in such a way that isn't just intended to get other SDAs to agree with you, but which can actually be engaged by others in some sort of meaningful discourse. Because for a Roman Catholic your argument is going to just look silly for the obvious reasons, for us non Roman Catholics there's not really anything substantial to be said because we don't reject purgatory because it conflicts with the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead (which it doesn't) but really just because the idea of purgatory is absent from Scripture and also absent from the ancient tradition of the faith (which is why Eastern Orthodox, for example, don't believe in purgatory).

If you just want to have fellow SDAs agree with you (which is the only thing I can imagine getting out from this) then wouldn't it have better served posting this in the SDA-only subforum? (or do SDAs not have their own subforum?)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Souldier]

What Bible? Not all Bibles are chopped down to 66 books

Im sure you know this, but please allow me to say it anyway. The bible is a collection of writings. Its not a rocket science manual. We wont miss some critical component for building faith just because we may be missing something thats not among the 66 books. The 66 are more than enough to guide us. A person could learn more from 50 books of the bible than another could from 100 books of scripture and all the books written on theology combined. Its not about having more books but its about digging into what we already have. We don't even understand half of what we read now, and its not because we are missing books but its because we dont study the ones that we do have. It takes a leading from the spirit to learn, the spirit teaches us. It takes time, prayer, and in my opinion it also takes spiritual warfare. The answer is not more books, the answer is letting the spirit teach us.

 

[Jipsah]

1. The Bible can be believed.

Agreed. But since Scripture is silent on the existence or lack thereof of purgatory, claiming that the Bible prohibits a belief in purgatory is specious.

So the question remains - why would anyone want to believe in the suffering and torment of Purgatory instead of just going with what we have in the Bible?

Maybe for the same sort of reason that some folks want to bind themselves and others under an abbreviated version of the Mosaic Law in spite of the many places in Scripture that warn us against that very thing.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Im sure you know this, but please allow me to say it anyway. The bible is a collection of writings. Its not a rocket science manual. We wont miss some critical component for building faith just because we may be missing something thats not among the 66 books. The 66 are more than enough to guide us. A person could learn more from 50 books of the bible than another could from 100 books of scripture and all the books written on theology combined. Its not about having more books but its about digging into what we already have. We don't even understand half of what we read now, and its not because we are missing books but its because we dont study the ones that we do have. It takes a leading from the spirit to learn, the spirit teaches us. It takes time, prayer, and in my opinion it also takes spiritual warfare. The answer is not more books, the answer is letting the spirit teach us.

Okay, so how many books are in the Bible, and how did you reach your conclusion on that number?

For example, here is a table of contents (Old Testament) from the New Jerusalem translation of the Bible:

Are you okay with this Bible? If not, why not? If you are, why?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Souldier]

Okay, so how many books are in the Bible, and how did you reach your conclusion on that number?

It doesnt matter.

 

[SkyWriting]

So then - why would anyone want to believe in Purgatory??

There are passages that suggest the dead are asleep
(as least we are convinced they are not here)
and that a "judgment day" is coming.

So the idea they are in some "holding place" is easy to understand.

 

[Optimax]

Why do you think Paul did not teach purgatory?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

There are passages that suggest the dead are asleep
(as least we are convinced they are not here)
and that a "judgment day" is coming.

So the idea they are in some "holding place" is easy to understand.

What would be your understanding of that from an Anabaptist perspective?

 

[BobRyan]

Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

Purgatory and the associated indulgences system is not found in the Bible - and yet if this purgatory-and-indulgences system is to be the main concern for truly compassionate family members and friends when a loved one dies - then certain it would get mentioned a few times and the importance of helping out a loved one while in this not-quite-heaven-but-in-torment state would be emphasized for the sincere Christian.

It is not mentioned - and what is more a counter-system a contrasting- picture is given in the Bible - one that contradicts purgatory in every way.

1 Thess 4 "Therefore comfort one another with these words" - this is the comfort for Christians on the subject of a loved one that has passed away. It is entirely focused on the resurrection - not on purgatory-helpout-efforts.

The entire focus is on the resurrection.

1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 5 Jesus describes two resurrections one for the righteous "A resurrection of life" and one for the wicked. But no purgatory. Even the wicked will not suffer until that resurrection of damnation/condemnation subjected to what John calls the '2nd death' in Rev 20.

Peter said to fix our hope entirely on the 2nd coming event - and the associated resurrection.

1 Peter 1:13
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


The resurrection is the focus of the NT church. Not fictional purgatory.

In 2Tim 4 Paul looks forward to the 2nd coming and resurrection at which point he will receive his reward.

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

"Let not your heart be troubled... I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3.

Phil 3 Paul does everything possible "in order that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" the correct resurrection of the two mentioned in John 5 and also in Rev 20:1-5.


No wonder in Matt 22 Christ argues in favor of the future resurrection.

So then - why would anyone want to believe in Purgatory??

Purgatory - a place where the "fires of purgatory" apply temporal punishments - --- torment and suffering to the saved prior to their being admitted into heaven and before the resurrection of the dead that Paul speaks of in 1Thess 4.

Never mentioned in scripture.

So why would anyone want to believe in it "anyway"??

What Bible? Not all Bibles are chopped down to 66 books

So then you admit that scripture does not speak of the fictional purgatory - but then claim that if we toss 11 texts that are merely "apocryphal texts" -- well then we find a clear statement promoting such torment/torture/fire-of-purgatory before the resurrection spoken of in 1Thess 4 - to the clearly saved yet not quite in heaven dearly-departed?

If so - why did you not provide such an apocryphal text quote?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by ViaCrucis Okay, so how many books are in the Bible, and how did you reach your conclusion on that number?

It doesnt matter.

True - because Purgatory is simply not there at all.

 

[BobRyan]

There are passages that suggest the dead are asleep
(as least we are convinced they are not here)
and that a "judgment day" is coming.

So the idea they are in some "holding place" is easy to understand.

The idea is that they are not at all dormant but rather fully conscious of the torment of the fires of purgatory - in torment - in that place of holding prior to being allowed into heaven.

Is that all to be "imagined" just because?? and if so "why would anyone want to imagine such a thing"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

Purgatory and the associated indulgences system is not found in the Bible - and yet if this purgatory-and-indulgences system is to be the main concern for truly compassionate family members and friends when a loved one dies - then certain it would get mentioned a few times and the importance of helping out a loved one while in this not-quite-heaven-but-in-torment state would be emphasized for the sincere Christian.

It is not mentioned - and what is more a counter-system a contrasting- picture is given in the Bible - one that contradicts purgatory in every way.

1 Thess 4 "Therefore comfort one another with these words" - this is the comfort for Christians on the subject of a loved one that has passed away. It is entirely focused on the resurrection - not on purgatory-helpout-efforts.

The entire focus is on the resurrection.

1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 5 Jesus describes two resurrections one for the righteous "A resurrection of life" and one for the wicked. But no purgatory. Even the wicked will not suffer until that resurrection of damnation/condemnation subjected to what John calls the '2nd death' in Rev 20.

Peter said to fix our hope entirely on the 2nd coming event - and the associated resurrection.

1 Peter 1:13
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


The resurrection is the focus of the NT church. Not fictional purgatory.

In 2Tim 4 Paul looks forward to the 2nd coming and resurrection at which point he will receive his reward.

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

"Let not your heart be troubled... I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3.

Phil 3 Paul does everything possible "in order that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" the correct resurrection of the two mentioned in John 5 and also in Rev 20:1-5.


No wonder in Matt 22 Christ argues in favor of the future resurrection.

So then - why would anyone want to believe in Purgatory??


​

Purgatory - a place where the "fires of purgatory" apply temporal punishments - --- torment and suffering to the saved prior to their being admitted into heaven and before the resurrection of the dead that Paul speaks of in 1Thess 4.

Never mentioned in scripture.

So why would anyone want to believe in it "anyway"??

Agreed. But since Scripture is silent on the existence or lack thereof of purgatory, claiming that the Bible prohibits a belief in purgatory is specious.

The claim is that it is purely fiction -- not at all found in the bible just as your statement agrees -- so then the remaining issues "why would anyone WANT to believe in" such a special place of fire and torment for the saved prior to heaven, and prior even to the resurrection of the saved?

Why "want" to believe in such torture, torment and temporal "punishment"???

Maybe for the same sort of reason that some folks want to bind themselves and others under an abbreviated version of the Mosaic Law

I find your logic "illusive" just then as you seem to be condemning the affirmation of the TEN Commandments that we find in the CCC, the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" claiming that their affirmation of God's moral law is equivalent to "making up purgatory and wanting to then believe in it".

That seems like a big gap in logic if I am reading your statement correctly.

 

[BobRyan]

Those who believe in purgatory (Roman Catholics) don't have any problem with the texts you provide because, as you should know, all Roman Catholics confess both the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds

Neither of which insist on the fires of purgatory. If the argument is that all who post in GT swear to believe in fictional purgatory based on the Nicene creed - then I think "some details" were missed when reading it.

which, rather explicitly, mention the resurrection of the dead.

Purgatory is a fiction about what happens before the resurrection.

Nothing in the Bible doctrine on resurrection mentions the stories about purgatory.

So attempting to present the resurrection of the dead as proof against purgatory is just going to sound like gibberish

Until you read the Bible and notice that the bible statements on life after death - regarding the resurrection do not mention the stories/myths about purgatory.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gnarwhal]

Why do some want to beat a dead horse by criticizing the Catholic Church at every juncture?

Some things we just may never have the answer to.

 

[Souldier]

Why do some want to beat a dead horse by criticizing the Catholic Church at every juncture?

Some things we just may never have the answer to.

Religion is at fault here. People hold onto religion because they dont know any different. However if we all found ourselves separated from Churches and preachers and had to rely on faith and the scriptures alone, then we would see how religion blinds us. We add all this religious stuff to our life when all God wants is for us to follow faith, love and hope. He wants us to follow peace will people and holiness. Holiness has nothing to do with going to church, but instead its a personal experience that we all must experience. Its about separating our self from this world by seeking the kingdom. He wants us to follow peace, meekness, humility, gentleness and to put on love. He wants us to follow faith by putting off our materialistic and worldly desires and living a simple life free from covetousness. He wants us to pray always and to walk in the spirit. THis is actually a very fulfilling way to live. Its full of peace and joy, although it does have its struggles at times. I really have no use for religion, although fellowship in the spirit is very valuable.

 

[topcare]

Why do some want to beat a dead horse by criticizing the Catholic Church at every juncture?

Some things we just may never have the answer to.

Because they are insecure of their own Religion (all the while saying they do not have a Religion), so as not to worry about that they focus hurting someone or something else that they whip others to a frenzy with. On the other hand they might think they are much superior since they think only they follow the true way since they "go by the Bible alone" which in reality they don't and really never have but going by their own counsel alone