Why Do Some Churches Preach Sin-Consciousness?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What I love about this forum is that people are prepared to have a good debate about the issues presented here. It would be a boring forum if we all agreed with each other. It is through reading the responses and responding that we learn. I have learned heaps through interacting with you folks and had a lot of fun doing it. The sharper the disagreements, the better I like it. And I am learning to love those who resort to personal attacks when their arguments start to get weak!

Now, I think that the churches that preach sin-consciousness by imposing their own set of religious rules and threatening discipline and condemnation by God if folks break them are doing it because they sense that they have lost their power in the Holy Spirit and they see that churches down the road are attracting more people than they are. So they impose the rules and threaten their people that if they leave the church, they are walking away from God and that they will always have a second-grade Christian life because they have walked out of where the "cutting edge" of what God is doing in their city at the present time. Of course, this is spiritual arrogance to think that they are the church closest to God in the city and every other church is inferior.

The real motives which the leadership does not disclose to the members at large is that they are afraid that people will leave their church and consequently the offerings will go down and they won't be able to pay the bills, and they might have to lose one of their full-time pastors because they might not be able to pay him either. So they adopt a legalistic approach to intimidate their members to stay, using their fears about their spiritual condition if they leave the church, to keep them coming along on Sundays and putting their tithe in the offering bag. You see, with those churches, it's all about money.

It's the same with some of the TV evangelists. They teach that if they don't contribute to their ministries, then God will not bless them financially. These churches, when teaching about tithing, do exactly the same. I was in a big church once where you knew that the income was declining, because they would have this session of serious teaching about tithing, and if people did not give their 10 percent, God will not bless them financially.

But the truth is that God will always finance His will, so if a church or ministry has to threaten or beg for money, then the question to ask, is that church or ministry operating in God's will, or is it just another man-managed religious outfit?

 

[Svt4Him]

Which church preaches this?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Which church preaches this?

I was a member of a Charismatic church for around 7 years and a lot of preaching was on morality. About half of the elders of that church came from an evangelical denomination that was very strong on moral rules and people were thrown out of that denomination because they went to the movies or dances, etc. There wasn't a lot of teaching about where we stand in Christ. What came through was that our standing with Christ depended on whether we followed their unwritten rules of morality. At one stage it was required of members to read only the approved books and listen to approved tapes, and for women not to wear trousers, nor should be in employment if married. Also, that church prided itself on being the best church in town for being the closest to the will of God for that place, and this implied that if anyone left it, they were walking away from that special, close place with God. This was also the one that preached tithing when their offering levels started to run low. Also, there was discrimination between people in the "approved" social group who were given better opportunities for ministry and service, while the others were in the "counselled" group who were deemed as having too many problems to be considered for positions of responsibility. There was a lot of gossiping and backbiting in that church, and it was not safe to go for counselling with the elders because their wives would gossip the confidential information around their friends in the church and blurt out stuff in church prayer meetings. One of my friends was refused communion because he just happened to go a visit a female member to receive help over a personal problem. In the end that church divided into three factions, and it became history and split into three separate churches in the city. It has been reported that two of those churches ended up with "power and control" pastors, while the third church passed into obscurity after a couple of years.

 

[Frogster]

A fearful church, is easily controlled by the pastor.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think some people have an ego that thinks 'they are right and others need to be led to what is right'.

If one truly believes, with conviction that there theology is right, than those type of people probably can in their own mind substantiate any controlling type of behavior (in their own minds) by believing that they are shepharding dumb sheep towards the Lord. The 'end' must justify the 'means'.

That's the only way I can make sense of it if they are a true Christian.

If they are not a true Christian and it is about power and control, then I feel sorry for them on Judgement Day.

 

[dayhiker]

I've heard of those type churches ... but can't say I've ever attended one. Thanks for sharing your insight into them, Oscarr.

 

[Biblicist]

I was a member of a Charismatic church for around . . .

I agree that there are far too many congregations across each and every denominational line that fits into your description.

Even though I am of the view that as a result of the all too common seeker-sensitive ethos that now prevails in so much of the Western church, that we in fact need to see more messages about sin and its consequences; you're quite right in that a hallmark of insecure and/or irresponsible leadership is that they will often add in rules and regulations that are almost impossible (or impracticle) to follow.

 

[Gideons300]

I was a member of a Charismatic church for around 7 years and a lot of preaching was on morality. About half of the elders of that church came from an evangelical denomination that was very strong on moral rules and people were thrown out of that denomination because they went to the movies or dances, etc. There wasn't a lot of teaching about where we stand in Christ. What came through was that our standing with Christ depended on whether we followed their unwritten rules of morality. At one stage it was required of members to read only the approved books and listen to approved tapes, and for women not to wear trousers, nor should be in employment if married. Also, that church prided itself on being the best church in town for being the closest to the will of God for that place, and this implied that if anyone left it, they were walking away from that special, close place with God. This was also the one that preached tithing when their offering levels started to run low. Also, there was discrimination between people in the "approved" social group who were given better opportunities for ministry and service, while the others were in the "counselled" group who were deemed as having too many problems to be considered for positions of responsibility. There was a lot of gossiping and backbiting in that church, and it was not safe to go for counselling with the elders because their wives would gossip the confidential information around their friends in the church and blurt out stuff in church prayer meetings. One of my friends was refused communion because he just happened to go a visit a female member to receive help over a personal problem. In the end that church divided into three factions, and it became history and split into three separate churches in the city. It has been reported that two of those churches ended up with "power and control" pastors, while the third church passed into obscurity after a couple of years.

May I ask a question, Oscar? If it is the job of the Holy Spirit to rebuke, correct, chasten and instruct us in how to live righteous lives..... if it is the job of the Spirit within us to convict us when we err, how do we listen without laying down our belief that God sees us as Holy and without fault? In my opinion, it is not the sin consciousness where we have erred, but what to do once we ARE conscious of it when we have sinned.

If our lives are affirming what we say we believe, if we are loving not the world, nor the things in it, if we are walking pleasing to him in all things, to try to make such a one sin conscious is indeed wrong, But that is not us at present as a whole is it? We are a church of compromise, of loving the things that bring dishonor to God, or thinking nothing wrong with our continued self rule, of secret sins both big and small. Shall we shout loudly to them that they are holy, when the spirit of God is whispering to them to repent and turn from darkness unto the light of life? Will this "revelation" that we are holy and pure help those who cannot hear any more correction of God, even when it is blatantly obvious to even those in the world that our lives and our testimonies simply do not match up?

What we need is to admit how far we have drifted in our lives from where we first started out and to cry out to our God for the power to overcome each and every temptation satan throws at us. This is what is missing in our midst.... a true understanding of exactly what God has promised to do for us in real life.... to deliver us from not just the penalty of sin, but its very power and authority over us. Satan longs to keep us sound asleep, going through our Christians motions, blinded to our low spiritual state, and to the dangers of continuing in willful sin. He wants to assure us all is well, no matter whether our lives are even close to approaching "walking in the light as he is in the light."

But praise God, in these final days, God will awaken His bride, and she will put on strength, and mount up with wings as eagles. Those who listen, who cry out for new hearts that live what he lives and hate what He hates, will discover the fullness of what god has had for us all along. Those who refuse to heed the corrective voice of God, however, will find in the end that God meant what He said about the extreme danger of continuing in sin as a way to bring glory to God for being so forgiving. The folly of such a stand will eventually be clear to all, but at present, our fog is just beginning to lift.

Sin consciousness is a gift of God, but only if it results in us on our knees, crying out for the deliverer to free us from its insidious grip. God will hear such a cry, and not one, even the weakest among, will fail. Will we respond with honesty and hunger, or will we hide under the blanket of positional holiness, as if it makes all of our current sins of no consequence. The choice is ours.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Isaacsname]

" But the truth is that God will always finance His will, so if a church or ministry has to threaten or beg for money, then the question to ask, is that church or ministry operating in God's will, or is it just another man-managed religious outfit? "
--------------------------------------
Well,...one could just simply turn around and say that God blesses those churches by sending them people who will readily give up tithes ( if you wanted to skew things like they are normally skewed )

But you would think that God wouldn't allow a dishonest church with a conman pastor to operate forever, ..yet,...there they are, all over the world

 

[Winepress777]

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil...

I think I've laid these scriptures out a hundred times over the years to folks surrounding this topic of righteousness, and other than Oscar's "Amen" a few days ago, most have burned me at the stake, condemning me for pride and justifying my self and then throwing First John verses at me then end up calling me a liar....
Thank you Oscar.
I don't see many who understand this and you're Amen was like a breath of fresh air.

 

[Alithis]

Osacar - i have seen this to one degree or another in EVERY church i have ever attended. i have seen it change and swing to and from .
one church they changed it to such a degree that they started using an offering box at the church rear so people could discreetly place tithe or offering in and no more public appeals were made .. (they are mortgage free now I heard)

im glad at this point I have not been a head pastor and so i do not know the intense pressure that probably comes upon them .
presently in the tiny church i attend i have even seen this (not the coercion ) creep in .
i think it would be better if they simply wear the finances on the sleeve so everyone knows the costs and bills required all the time and how much is required to run the building .Then let the lord speak to everyone's hearts in regard to giving ..
perhaps we need to STOP treating it like an us (congregation ) and them (leadership ).. and dealing with it like a business board model...
it need to be ALL us .. as one complete body .. every bill is, my, the laypersons responsibility as much as it is the leaderships .. we should be as ONE person.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

May I ask a question, Oscar? If it is the job of the Holy Spirit to rebuke, correct, chasten and instruct us in how to live righteous lives..... if it is the job of the Spirit within us to convict us when we err, how do we listen without laying down our belief that God sees us as Holy and without fault? In my opinion, it is not the sin consciousness where we have erred, but what to do once we ARE conscious of it when we have sinned.

Firstly, when Jesus was describing the future work of the Holy Spirit whom He was going to send when He went away, is that how He described Him? I don't see any reference to your description. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. The scripture does say that the Holy Spirit will convict the word of righteousness, sin and judgment to come, but this is His ministry to the world, not to the Christian Church. The work of the Holy Spirit in us is to guide our thinking towards being consistent with the way God thinks about us.

If our lives are affirming what we say we believe, if we are loving not the world, nor the things in it, if we are walking pleasing to him in all things, to try to make such a one sin conscious is indeed wrong, But that is not us at present as a whole is it? We are a church of compromise, of loving the things that bring dishonor to God, or thinking nothing wrong with our continued self rule, of secret sins both big and small. Shall we shout loudly to them that they are holy, when the spirit of God is whispering to them to repent and turn from darkness unto the light of life? Will this "revelation" that we are holy and pure help those who cannot hear any more correction of God, even when it is blatantly obvious to even those in the world that our lives and our testimonies simply do not match up?

This is the result of us still thinking according to the world around us. If we are as you describe, then that thinking comes from the old, dead nature and not from the new nature. Progressive sanctification is the transformation of our thinking from thinking according to the flesh to thinking according to the people we actually are in Christ, and the way God sees us. God is only interested in seeing us in Christ and according to our new nature. When our thinking is transformed accordingly, we will find an increased power in our lives and witness. While we are thinking according to our old nature, even though we have a new nature in Christ, according to James we are double minded, and he says that double minded people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Your behaviour will follow your thinking. Your mental attitude to yourself is like the locomotive that hauls the train, and your behaviour is like the carriages that follow. The carriages always follows the locomotive whereever it goes. If you are thinking like a sinner, then your behaviour will follow that path. When you start thinking like a new creature in Christ, clothed in His righteousness, and in good standing with God, then your behaviour will follow that path.

Christian believers, when they were converted, turned from darkness to light. Walking in the light is thinking and behaving according to who they actually are in Christ. To say that believers have to continually turn from darkness to light is saying that they need to be born again over again and again and again, and this is as ridiculous and untrue as it sounds. If there is a whispering voice telling believers that they are still sinful and need to repent, then that cannot be the Holy Spirit, because the voice is saying that Jesus did not pay the full price and was not punished enough for our sins. If Jesus paid the full price, we are totally set free from the guilt and judgment of sin.

What we need is to admit how far we have drifted in our lives from where we first started out and to cry out to our God for the power to overcome each and every temptation satan throws at us. This is what is missing in our midst.... a true understanding of exactly what God has promised to do for us in real life.... to deliver us from not just the penalty of sin, but its very power and authority over us. Satan longs to keep us sound asleep, going through our Christians motions, blinded to our low spiritual state, and to the dangers of continuing in willful sin. He wants to assure us all is well, no matter whether our lives are even close to approaching "walking in the light as he is in the light."

If someone has drifted, then they have drifted in their thinking and have stopped believing where they stand in Christ, and are turning away from Christ back into the world's way of thinking. Also, the devil will work hard had convincing folks that God is so sensitive about their failures and shortcomings that He throws a hissy fit very time we fail and breaks fellowship with us. This is a lie of the devil, because God has promises that He will never leave us nor forsake us. Sin has no authority or power over us, because when Jesus rose from the dead, He stripped Satan of all his authority and power. In actual fact, we are seated with Christ far above all authority and power, and this includes any power of sin. If someone still thinks they are still under the power of sin, then they do not understand that they are seated with Christ, and are being fooled by the devil into thinking that sin still has authority and power over us. We are not "approaching" walking in the light as He is in the light. We ARE walking in the light with Christ, because we are in Christ and He is in us. What God wants us to do is to believe it, live like it, and allow Him to make up the lack that we have in our experience of Him.

But praise God, in these final days, God will awaken His bride, and she will put on strength, and mount up with wings as eagles. Those who listen, who cry out for new hearts that live what he lives and hate what He hates, will discover the fullness of what god has had for us all along. Those who refuse to heed the corrective voice of God, however, will find in the end that God meant what He said about the extreme danger of continuing in sin as a way to bring glory to God for being so forgiving. The folly of such a stand will eventually be clear to all, but at present, our fog is just beginning to lift.

If people are crying out for new hearts, God will not answer their prayers, because if they are converted to Christ they already have new hearts; therefore all they need to do is to believe it. To lift the fog on our appreciation of where we stand in Christ, we need to exercise faith in what God clearly says about our standing in Christ, that we can stand before Him without guilt, shame, or any sense of inferiority. If we are preoccupied with sin, we are not believing in the way we should, because God has no issue with sin at all, because it all was laid on Jesus and therefore it all belongs to Him. If people want to hold on to their sin then they are robbing Jesus of what belongs to Him. This explains why so many churches and Christians are powerless trusting in an empty religion instead of the living Christ who is already abiding in their hearts and lives.

Sin consciousness is a gift of God, but only if it results in us on our knees, crying out for the deliverer to free us from its insidious grip. God will hear such a cry, and not one, even the weakest among, will fail. Will we respond with honesty and hunger, or will we hide under the blanket of positional holiness, as if it makes all of our current sins of no consequence. The choice is ours.

A gift of God??? Absolute nonsense! Where does it say that in Scripture? We don't need to cry out to be freed from sin's grip. We are already free if we are converted to Christ. God will not answer prayers like that. His answer will be, "Why on earth don't you believe My Word?" We don't hide under a blanket of positional holiness. We live it in our everyday conduct. Our current sins are actually of no consequence to God because they are all laid on Jesus and buried in His tomb.

 

[Gideons300]

A gift of God??? Absolute nonsense! Where does it say that in Scripture? We don't need to cry out to be freed from sin's grip. We are already free if we are converted to Christ. God will not answer prayers like that. His answer will be, "Why on earth don't you believe My Word?" We don't hide under a blanket of positional holiness. We live it in our everyday conduct. Our current sins are actually of no consequence to God because they are all laid on Jesus and buried in His tomb.

At what point do we carry this? To the man who got hooked on pills and now cannot...will not stop, crying out to be freed from the grip of evil, do we say "No biggie!" To the proverbial adulterer, do we assure them all is well when they are disgracing the king that they say they serve? These examples are extreme, you say. No, they are not. The issue is not in the vileness of the "big" sins, but in our blindness to the vileness in the small, innocent, 'understandable' ones. 'We are only human' is a cop out. We are fitting the description of the emperor with his new set of clothes, as we are convinced that despite our sins of preference, despite our worldliness, despite our lack of burden for the lost, and a lack of love for prayer with the Father, despite our unrepentant hearts, He still smiles on us?? He loves us....no mistake. But because of that love, if we are His children, He WILL chasten us.

Furthermore, we are told that if we are without chastisement, we are bastards and not sons. What is being espoused by many today may sound pleasant to the ears but it will lead to a world of hurt unless we flee it, and in a hurry. It simply is not scriptural and it is in this wound of misunderstanding, that unbelief has reigned and shallow sin-fllled religious lives are the result. We are, sadly identical to the people of God he spoke of in Ezekiel, who have blasphemed His Holy name wherever they went. How? By saying that if the lost looked at their lives, they accurately related what God was capable of doing and what He was not. A form of godliness, no life. I do not say this to anger, but to awaken our consciences to where we have fallen...so we can get up.

Unbelievably, we are now, as the church of Christ who died to free us from the power of sin, innoculating the saints against the need for repentance when sins are committed. We have concluded there is no danger, when the word specifically warns us that there IS danger, and that we must watch for satan's devices. Guys, this is a HUGE one.. The devil whispers the answer back. "Legalism", he tells us, hoping it will shoo away any lingering doubts. As a result, our sins have continued and hearts have been sufficiently hardened to believe all is good no matter what. We are wrong. Darkness lurks, and it is not only avoidable, it is defeatable.... like for real.

God is about to awake us to the truth. He sees our sins, every one, and he is pleading with us to leave them behind us. He wants to show us how. To continue on the path we are on is eternal danger. And the devil whispers again "You can't lose your salvation so don't listen." Liar.

Brother, I pray you listen. Here is what God tells us if there is sin in our walks and especially if there is no battle going on for supremacy:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James 4:1-10

Guys, these words are directed at believers, not those in the world. US. oh, I pray you listen to the good news. God has an answer to our weakness. He is about to reveal it to us, each one of us, just us and God. We cannot stop sinning. Ah, but God in us can! Now, our job is to believe that is possible. Desperation helps immensely. When we are so broken by our lack of God's character imprinted into us, how we interact with the world and its offerings, how we interact with the lost, how we interact with one another, even our own families, and we cannot go another step without relief...full deliverance from the darkness of the old nature, God will, to our amazement, give us an answer that right now we cannot even fathom. We think we are waiting for Him to move. He is waiting for us.

Many blessings to you, Oscar

Gideon

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

At what point do we carry this? To the man who got hooked on pills and now cannot...will not stop, crying out to be freed from the grip of evil, do we say "No biggie!" To the proverbial adulterer, do we assure them all is well when they are disgracing the king that they say they serve? These examples are extreme, you say. No, they are not. The issue is not in the vileness of the "big" sins, but in our blindness to the vileness in the small, innocent, 'understandable' ones. 'We are only human' is a cop out. We are fitting the description of the emperor with his new set of clothes, as we are convinced that despite our sins of preference, despite our worldliness, despite our lack of burden for the lost, and a lack of love for prayer with the Father, despite our unrepentant hearts, He still smiles on us?? He loves us....no mistake. But because of that love, if we are His children, He WILL chasten us.

Furthermore, we are told that if we are without chastisement, we are bastards and not sons. What is being espoused by many today may sound pleasant to the ears but it will lead to a world of hurt unless we flee it, and in a hurry. It simply is not scriptural and it is in this wound of misunderstanding, that unbelief has reigned and shallow sin-fllled religious lives are the result. We are, sadly identical to the people of God he spoke of in Ezekiel, who have blasphemed His Holy name wherever they went. How? By saying that if the lost looked at their lives, they accurately related what God was capable of doing and what He was not. A form of godliness, no life. I do not say this to anger, but to awaken our consciences to where we have fallen...so we can get up.

Unbelievably, we are now, as the church of Christ who died to free us from the power of sin, innoculating the saints against the need for repentance when sins are committed. We have concluded there is no danger, when the word specifically warns us that there IS danger, and that we must watch for satan's devices. Guys, this is a HUGE one.. The devil whispers the answer back. "Legalism", he tells us, hoping it will shoo away any lingering doubts. As a result, our sins have continued and hearts have been sufficiently hardened to believe all is good no matter what. We are wrong. Darkness lurks, and it is not only avoidable, it is defeatable.... like for real.

God is about to awake us to the truth. He sees our sins, every one, and he is pleading with us to leave them behind us. He wants to show us how. To continue on the path we are on is eternal danger. And the devil whispers again "You can't lose your salvation so don't listen." Liar.

Brother, I pray you listen. Here is what God tells us if there is sin in our walks and especially if there is no battle going on for supremacy:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

James 4:1-10

Guys, these words are directed at believers, not those in the world. US. oh, I pray you listen to the good news. God has an answer to our weakness. He is about to reveal it to us, each one of us, just us and God. We cannot stop sinning. Ah, but God in us can! Now, our job is to believe that is possible. Desperation helps immensely. When we are so broken by our lack of God's character imprinted into us, how we interact with the world and its offerings, how we interact with the lost, how we interact with one another, even our own families, and we cannot go another step without relief...full deliverance from the darkness of the old nature, God will, to our amazement, give us an answer that right now we cannot even fathom. We think we are waiting for Him to move. He is waiting for us.

Many blessings to you, Oscar

Gideon

This doesn't alter the fact that in Christ we are seated at the right hand of God, clothed completely in the Righteousness of Christ and that God no longer sees our sins at all. If people want to live below their privilege, then the monkey is on their shoulders, not Gods. If we want to see the power of God in and through our lives, we need to think of ourselves and our standing with Christ as God sees us. All you are doing is giving very valid reasons why much of our church is just powerless religion and does not reflect how the Holy Spirit wants to move powerfully through the Church to make disciples for Christ.

 

[Gideons300]

This doesn't alter the fact that in Christ we are seated at the right hand of God, clothed completely in the Righteousness of Christ and that God no longer sees our sins at all. If people want to live below their privilege, then the monkey is on their shoulders, not Gods. If we want to see the power of God in and through our lives, we need to think of ourselves and our standing with Christ as God sees us. All you are doing is giving very valid reasons why much of our church is just powerless religion and does not reflect how the Holy Spirit wants to move powerfully through the Church to make disciples for Christ.

Brother, what you say sounds good to us, for to believe sin really has no more power or authority over us and that we really can be kept from sinning is so high, so hard... so impossible, that what you say must be the logical conclusion, unless...... unless we have missed one key element of the gospel. I believe we have.

It is wonderful to know and rejoice in the fact that when Christ died, we died with Him. In the same way, it is great to know that when Christ rose from the dead, so did we. But there is another step that we are asked to take. Paul tells us that because we know this, we are asked to do something. We are asked to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. Our heavenly Father asks that we combine these wonderful truths with our faith that it is true for US..... right now. We are told to put off our old nature, the one that sins, that does its will rather than God's whenever they conflict. We are asked to believe that our old nature is dead. We are asked to believe that we really do have new natures and that God will actually keep "the new us" from sinning, because He has promised that He would.

Your premise is that even if we do sin in real time, those sins are invisible to God. I can think of several verses right off that make it impossible, however. The scripture in James 4 is a great example. The letters to the churches in Revelation is another. Did God tell each church that what He saw was totally pleasing to Him, and that He saw no sin? Nope. He saw the good, the commendable, and He saw the bad that needed repentance. I do not know exactly what "being spit out of the mouth of God" really means, but we all know this much.... it is not good.

We are told to not deceive ourselves. He that doeth righteousness, is righteous, even as He is righteous. We are told that if we see a brother in need, and pray a nice prayer with him, but do not help him, how dwells the love of God in us? It is a rhetorical question. It does not. He not only sees our sins, but the thoughts and intents of our hearts. John tells us that IF we sin....not when but IF.... then if we repent and turn from the sin, and confess it before God, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. If we do not, and continue on along our path of sin and grieving the Spirit, then we are in truth rejecting the correction and chastening of the Spirit and we are in essence rebuilding that which He destroyed, as we are making ourselves transgressors again.

If God sees us as perfect, how is it that the Spirit chastens us? Is this not making us sin conscious? Do we ignore God when the needed correction or paddling comes? Are we to attribute that voice to satan and not God, because it is making us sin conscious? If sin is in our lives, the path laid out before us is confession and repentance, and THEN for us to believe again that we are new creatures in Christ.

When satan comes tempting, do you not see that if we have not actually appropriated our new natures, and put off the old sinful flesh, and come into full agreement with God that we owe the flesh nothing, we have no shield to protect us? What matter is it if we give in..... again.... if God never sees it? Of course He sees it, and He longs for us to pick up our shield of faith that shouts back at the accuser of the brethren "That WAS me, satan, but that is not me any longer. I am a new creature and my God can and will keep me from falling. He will deliver me from the power of darkness." And
satan, totally frustrated, has no answer for that. Why? It is truth.

The miracle we have for the most part never yet believed is this. God WILL keep us from sinning, if we will simply believe it to be true. Faith works. Do we believe this? Up till now, pretty much universally NO. But it is as you say. Either we lean on our logical minds.... OR.... we believe our God and use His words, His amazing promises as weapons of war. We fight back, and praise God, we win, every time. That is why God tells us that He will not allow us to be tempted above our ability to withstand it. No matter how big or small, we can be kept from falling. Our sins are not to become invisible to God, but non-existent. Glory.

Brother, this is far from "theory". Over six years ago, God met me and showed me what I had missed. I had no armor, no shield. I had the blood of the lamb but no words of my testimony about what that blood accomplishes. Who overcomes? He that combine one with the other. Until we do, we will find that we are still satan's fodder, and that no matter how much we long to be free from the power of sin, it will still be our master, and yes, God will still see it.

There is real deliverance from the fleshly nature. We can be caused to walk in full 100% obedience, but first we must hate our old nature that looks for any opportunity to do its thing. Real holiness is possible. In truth it is guaranteed. But we will not find the highway of holiness until our hearts are so miserable as we continue to live as the old natured man, that we, like Paul, cry out for the deliverer to come and deliver us.

The world is unimpressed with our form of holiness that is all words but no actions. They call it hypocrisy. When we they again look and listen to u as so many did with the church in the first century? God gives us that answer and we are to be a part of it.

"....and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall be sanctified in you before their very eyes."

That is not positional holiness, as we cling to the hope that when we sin, God simply casts a blind eye towards it. What is coming is real, heart changing, character refining, loved filled saints of God, armor on, swords sharpened, and most importantly, shields of faith us as to who we are in Him. We are new, but as yet, it has not profited us, not being mixed with faith in our hearts. Thank God He is lovingly awakening us to the truth we have missed, then we can indeed actually put off our old nature, and disassociate from it. We can, praise God, put on our new natures, that can and will be caused to obey God in ALL things.

The only question that remains is..... will we remain content to continue to sin and live fleshly, worldly lives, trusting that God cannot see it, or will our desire to walk like Christ, to love like Christ, to hate evil like Christ put us on our knees and cry out to Him to open our eyes to the truth, so tat we can then arm ourselves with Christ in us and with the old us dead, and walk out our lives as overcomers, free indeed.

Will we really believe what the Word tells us? It tells us that sin has no more dominion over us, that the power of sin is broken over us. It tells us that we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in us. It tells us we owe the flesh NOTHING. It tells us that He will not allow us to be tempted to the point we cave in. It tells us that our shield of faith in what Jesus has accomplished in us WILL quench ALL the fiery arrows of the enemy. What will we believe?

Blessings, brother

Gids

 

[Svt4Him]

If you divide truth down the middle, it cuts the "You"

t- the cross of Christ which leads us to
r-edemption. It is grace and love that draws us once our hearts are pierced by the word of God.
u
t- the second cross that every believer is told to carry. It's not like a heavy burden, it is laying down our lives and becoming
h-oly. That is God's will. One can't obtain holiness while still carnal, in love with the world.

So if you're lawless, you mask it with grace and love, if you're under the law, you mask it with holiness. The middle is faith, then virtue, which is also goodness, or a desire to not sin. To never talk about sin means you have to ignore complete books of the Bible and you also ignore virtue, which is the pathway to godliness. But it has to be done in a way that brings change, not adds burdens that the person preaching it can't even bear.

42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

"Yes," said Jesus, "what sorrow also awaits you experts in religious law! For you crush people with unbearable religious demands, and you never lift a finger to ease the burden.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you divide truth down the middle, it cuts the "You"

t- the cross of Christ which leads us to
r-edemption. It is grace and love that draws us once our hearts are pierced by the word of God.
u
t- the second cross that every believer is told to carry. It's not like a heavy burden, it is laying down our lives and becoming
h-oly. That is God's will. One can't obtain holiness while still carnal, in love with the world.

So if you're lawless, you mask it with grace and love, if you're under the law, you mask it with holiness. The middle is faith, then virtue, which is also goodness, or a desire to not sin. To never talk about sin means you have to ignore complete books of the Bible and you also ignore virtue, which is the pathway to godliness. But it has to be done in a way that brings change, not adds burdens that the person preaching it can't even bear.

42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

"Yes," said Jesus, "what sorrow also awaits you experts in religious law! For you crush people with unbearable religious demands, and you never lift a finger to ease the burden.

This does not satisfactorily answer the issue where the Scripture says that we are dead to sin. What you are arguing for is that we should still take account of what we do in our old nature and that Christ did not pay the full price for sin, and that He was not punished enough for it, and that we are not really clothed with the Righteousness of Christ to the degree that God does not see us as sinners at all. So are you looking at things from your own carnal perspective surely? Because if you saw things from God's perspective, you would see that the carnal you along with your sins are dead to God. In other words, they are of no account to Him. If you are still living and thinking according to your carnal self, then the born again experience is of no effect for you. Being born again is when your carnal nature is crucified with Christ and buried with him. We don't go digging up buried bodies don't we? So why should you be digging up your old carnal nature by acknowledging that you are still a sinner. You can't be a sinner and a new creation in Christ at the same time. This is what John is saying in 1 John 3:9. He says that he who is born of God does not sin; he cannot sin. This is the new nature in Christ. This has only happened because your old carnal nature is dead and buried. Something that is dead and buried has no issue with God at all.

So, you are correct when you say that if we are still carnal, we can never be holy before God. But as a new creation, we are holy, clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Therefore, if your carnal nature is still a significant feature of your life, then your acceptance of Christ is of no effect. All you have is religion, and not a true born again experience in Christ. You are either in Christ or carnal. You can't be a mixture of the two. Either you are alive in Christ, or you are dead in your carnal nature with its sinfulness. It all depends what you believe you are. If you are still taking account of your carnal nature being still a part of your life, you will behave that way. The only way to behave in ways that are holy and acceptable to God is to believe that you are a new creation in Christ and that your carnal nature is dead and buried so that you don't have to pay any attention to it at all. But as long as you remain sin-conscious, then you are living way below who you are in Christ.

 

[Svt4Him]

Take up your cross and crucify the flesh. This is an on-going process. You don't walk into a room in your flesh and your spirit then walks in after. We are all being renewed, we haven't achieved that yet, and to ignore all that with one verse is not wise, IMO.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Take up your cross and crucify the flesh. This is an on-going process. You don't walk into a room in your flesh and your spirit then walks in after. We are all being renewed, we haven't achieved that yet, and to ignore all that with one verse is not wise, IMO.

You have misquoted the Scripture; Here it is:

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Galatians 5:24).

Notice that the tense of the verb is past tense not present progressive. This means that for those who have been born again in Christ have already crucified the flesh. It is a one time event that has happened at conversion. This is consistent with Galatians 2:20 which reads:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The verb Crucified in this verb is also in the past tense. Once someone has been crucified and killed you can't do it again because the person is dead. To crucify the same person again and again is a very silly thing to do. It's like getting born again over and over again.

Also, taking up the cross means to abide in Christ. As we abide in Christ, we start thinking like Christ, and then our conduct changes so we behave like Christ. Also, it means to stand up for Christ in the world and not be ashamed of Him even though it may mean persecution.

John says that those who are born of God do not sin because they cannot sin. That is not taking a verse out of context. It is reflect what John is actually saying. He also says that if we confess our sin, God is faithful and will forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The two statements seem contradictory but they are not. John is speaking the truth in each case.

Take a little time to think about it. When were you converted to Christ? Was it a one-time event or do you think you have to do it every day? And when were you cleansed from all unrighteousness and clothed with the righteousness of Christ? Were you clothed with His righteousness yesterday but not today? What if your confession of sin was a one-time event involved in your conversion to Christ, and then you were once and for all cleansed from all unrighteousness and clothed with the righteousness of Christ? What if after that happened, you were so free from sin that God has no issue with it in you any longer?

So, if you think that you still sin, then either John is mistaken or that you are not converted. Which one is it?

 

[Svt4Him]

And if you say you are without sin..."we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." So either John is mistaken or you are deceived and the truth is not in you, which one is it?