Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages according to Revelation Chapters 1-3...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The reasons why Christians dis-agree is because of the high denominational walls! It is hard to get Christians to acknowledge one another as brethren and co-laborers in Christ.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

The reasons why Christians dis-agree is because of the high denominational walls! It is hard to get Christians to acknowledge one another as brethren and co-laborers in Christ.

Yep exactly.

Its the same reasons why most people argue about everything. Ask someone "Whos your favorite football team?" and you will have fights about it because there are many teams. Or "Whats your favorite movie?", more answers because everyone has a different view on it.

 

[Disciple37]

One of the main reasons for differing opinions on scripture is "unbelief". There can be unbelief in christians and none christians alike. This is why it's important for christians to study the word of God, go to a scripturally sound church, and "try" to mature their walk with God by seeking him and living as he would. As you seek God, study, and hear the gospel preached, God will gift you with more faith. Faith is not earned, it's simply given by God out of his goodness. All you have to do is seek him. By the way, just because they say they're Christian doesn't mean they are. So we have to be careful on who is telling you what.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 12:28-29
Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” “An angel has spoken to him.”
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

What we see here is unbelief and spiritual immaturity. So you have those who were not believers likely claiming it was only "thunder". Then you have those who may have been believers, but spiritually infants "new born" believers that could not discern the voice was from God, but believed it was merely an angel. Basically, they heard what they wanted to hear. If you go on to read that entire chapter, you'll understand the context of what is taking place here.

Then you have those people that are just plain ignorant of the truth.

2 Peter 3:16
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

In this verse below, we see here that Timothy is told to "study" the word of God. In Timothy's time, the scriptures would have been the old testament we now have today and how Christ fulfilled the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Then you have those people that just pick verses out of thin air misinterpreting them. This is wrong, and you need to read the chapter to get a context and understanding of the history and the situation of the events surrounding what is being said. So when i point out verses, as above, feel free to read the chapter to get an understanding of what is going on for these words to have even been spoken.

Then you have immature Christians going around trying to teach and interrupt scripture. This verse below demonstrates that Christians must mature and the Bible warns that most Christians should not be teaching because their judgement will be stricter. (This does not mean they cannot lead a lost person to Christ or bring them to someone more knowledgeable). You can lead them to Christ, but teaching others about the "meat (KJV) solid food (ESV)" the deep things of the Bible are for those that are mature in their faith and study.

1 Corinthians 3:2-3
I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Then you have those Christians that follow "tradition" more than the Bible and teach others to do this. Their tradition is how they interpret the Bible. They do not allow the word of God to minister to them because they have a humanly filter that the Bible warns against. Religion.

I'd love to answer and discuss any specific questions or comments. I have more to post, but i dont want to get ahead of myself.

 

[PanDeVida]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Athee, The reason why your group ended with the guys saying they don't have a answer for this problem, is because they are ones causing the problem and there are many who do this.

Here is the problem: When a group of "Cool Guys" get together for Bible Study and try to interpret Scripture, doing so is wrong. Why? Because the whole of the Bible has already been interpreted by the Church, in it's infancy aka Catholic Church.

Since the Protestant Reformation in the 15th century to this very day there are many, some say over 33,000 protestant churches and counting having the problem of different interpretations of Scripture that these "Cool Guys" can't answer.

Here is the answer: Follow the first and only interpretation of the whole Bible/Scripture, of the Catholic Church and you will not go wrong, all other interpretations of Scripture is what is causing the Disagreement that you wrote of. Amen

 

[samir]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

The Holy Spirit does not personally guide each individual believer to the correct interpretation of every verse of scripture. Before you get to interpretations, you first have to find a way to determine which writings are scripture. If you study early church history, you'll find that Christianity isn't based on scripture. It's based on the teaching of Jesus and the apostles which they passed along through apostolic succession to the bishops they appointed to lead the church. The early Christians learned about Christianity from the church. They got their bibles from the church they trusted to faithfully preserve Jesus' teaching. If they rejected that church, they'd have no foundation for their faith and no way to determine which writings are scripture.

Christians are free to disagree on interpretations as long as they are following the doctrines of the Christian faith that have been taught and believed from the beginning.

 

[Disciple37]

The Holy Spirit does not personally guide each individual believer to the correct interpretation of every verse of scripture. Before you get to interpretations, you first have to find a way to determine which writings are scripture. If you study early church history, you'll find that Christianity isn't based on scripture. It's based on the teaching of Jesus and the apostles which they passed along through apostolic succession to the bishops they appointed to lead the church. The early Christians learned about Christianity from the church. They got their bibles from the church they trusted to faithfully preserve Jesus' teaching. If they rejected that church, they'd have no foundation for their faith and no way to determine which writings are scripture.

Christians are free to disagree on interpretations as long as they are following the doctrines of the Christian faith that have been taught and believed from the beginning.

Important correction. Every believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit will teach him. It's very important that all Christians understand that they need to rely on only Jesus Christ. Not on man or church to teach them scripture. Teaching from a man of God is great, however, we as believers are not dependent on teachers for we are given the greatest teacher of all. The Holy Spirit.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He shall guide you into all the truth: for He shall not speak from Himself; but what things soever He shall hear, these shall He speak: and He shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you."

So we see here that Christ promised to the apostles here that the Holy Spirit would teach them. However, we see the apostles teach that the Holy Spirit will teach every believer "all truth".

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

We see here that every believer does actually have the Holy Spirit teaching them if they seek God and allow him to teach them. The Holy Spirit will teach you. Every single believer has this anointing. The actual problem is we rely TOO MUCH on men for teaching and not the Holy Spirit. Men are vulnerable to sin, doubt, unbelief, ignorance, laziness, ect. Many believers are caught up in denominations which the Bible doesn't support. The church should be one. However, the hardness of our hearts, arguing, bickering back and forth, unbelief, spiritual weakness, among many other things has allowed division of the church which should not have happened. At least most denominations get that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father, but even in denominations you have men preaching heresy. This is why we rely on the Holy Spirit, God. Not men.

Relying on men gets you into trouble. Confirm everything a man tells you with the scripture and your own prayer and study. Dont always go off what someone tells you. If something confuses you, pray, and read the entire chapter that the verse is in and get scriptural clues about what's going on.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Okay suppose we have 70 students in a classroom. We have a tablet written in an unknown language that these students are going to have to interpret. Some of the students are really interested in ancient languages, some of them so-so, and some of them are just there because they need the credit to pass. Some a lazy, some are efficient; some bright, some not so much. Some are gifted with a keen ability to understand language constructs. Some are disciples of certain language theories both orthodox and unorthodox. So at the beginning of the year they go to work. Some of the words are more readily determined than the other: but even these words aren't super clear. Does this word mean "sky" or possibly "lofty" (one guy says "I believe this is more of a "kingly" word, perhaps a language of government?).

So all of these students are building and building on each new revelation, arguing and throwing back and forth ideas "There is no way that phrase means 'door of angels' it is clearly 'way of stars'!" "Stars?! That is absurd!" They all have their interpretations "Budge says this word means 'priest' and that is that!" "It doesn't mean priest in this context." *gasp* "You dare challenge Budge! He is smarter than your whole group put together!" Piece by piece things become clearer; ground is given, threats are made, walls are raised; but time marches on. The more that is revealed, the clearer it becomes. Fragmented schisms gradually give way to a more cohesive understanding.

Blood, sweat and tears as the end of the year approaches. Everything is coming together. Old tensions fade, and handshakes are shaken; apologies are given and at long last everything is made clear. The students read the message finally understood after all this time. "Be sure... to drink... your Ovaltine?!" Okay that's a joke, but the principle is the same. Humans are learning how to speak in a unified and objective abstraction; that is really what is going on. The only difference is that, in Christianity, people condemn each other to unimaginable fates for not interpreting things they don't fully understand in exact manner as everyone else who also doesn't fully understand. Something like that, anyway.

 

[Athée]

I believe in the seven churches as ages according to Revelation Chapters 1-3...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Peter
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The reasons why Christians dis-agree is because of the high denominational walls! It is hard to get Christians to acknowledge one another as brethren and co-laborers in Christ.

OK, so is there an actual truth of the matter or is each denomination right in its own way?

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Athée]

Yep exactly.

Its the same reasons why most people argue about everything. Ask someone "Whos your favorite football team?" and you will have fights about it because there are many teams. Or "Whats your favorite movie?", more answers because everyone has a different view on it.

I'm not sure I understand. If you ask me my favorite football team and I say Seattle why would you argue with me? If we were debating who is the best team then sure we could debate that and our answer would depend on what the criteria are.
Are you saying with this analogy that there are in fact no spiritual truths and that every Christian is just supposed to come to their own conclusions? What role does the Holy Spirit play in this process or discovering/creating truth?

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[rockytopva]

OK, so is there an actual truth of the matter or is each denomination right in its own way?

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Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts. - Proverbs 21:2

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The problem with spirituality is that it is neither intelligence or mass... therefore it cannot be purchased or taught. This is also a problem in Christianity.... Just because one has arrived at superior doctrine does not mean he is spiritual.

 

[Athée]

One of the main reasons for differing opinions on scripture is "unbelief". There can be unbelief in christians and none christians alike. This is why it's important for christians to study the word of God, go to a scripturally sound church, and "try" to mature their walk with God by seeking him and living as he would. As you seek God, study, and hear the gospel preached, God will gift you with more faith. Faith is not earned, it's simply given by God out of his goodness. All you have to do is seek him. By the way, just because they say they're Christian doesn't mean they are. So we have to be careful on who is telling you what.

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 12:28-29
Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” “An angel has spoken to him.”
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

What we see here is unbelief and spiritual immaturity. So you have those who were not believers likely claiming it was only "thunder". Then you have those who may have been believers, but spiritually infants "new born" believers that could not discern the voice was from God, but believed it was merely an angel. Basically, they heard what they wanted to hear. If you go on to read that entire chapter, you'll understand the context of what is taking place here.

Then you have those people that are just plain ignorant of the truth.

2 Peter 3:16
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

In this verse below, we see here that Timothy is told to "study" the word of God. In Timothy's time, the scriptures would have been the old testament we now have today and how Christ fulfilled the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 2:15
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Then you have those people that just pick verses out of thin air misinterpreting them. This is wrong, and you need to read the chapter to get a context and understanding of the history and the situation of the events surrounding what is being said. So when i point out verses, as above, feel free to read the chapter to get an understanding of what is going on for these words to have even been spoken.

Then you have immature Christians going around trying to teach and interrupt scripture. This verse below demonstrates that Christians must mature and the Bible warns that most Christians should not be teaching because their judgement will be stricter. (This does not mean they cannot lead a lost person to Christ or bring them to someone more knowledgeable). You can lead them to Christ, but teaching others about the "meat (KJV) solid food (ESV)" the deep things of the Bible are for those that are mature in their faith and study.

1 Corinthians 3:2-3
I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

Then you have those Christians that follow "tradition" more than the Bible and teach others to do this. Their tradition is how they interpret the Bible. They do not allow the word of God to minister to them because they have a humanly filter that the Bible warns against. Religion.

I'd love to answer and discuss any specific questions or comments. I have more to post, but i dont want to get ahead of myself.

It seems like you are saying that there is a true and correct reading of any particular scripture (although of course there are layers of meanings that can all be true), and that these things are revealed to mature, true Christians. Obviously that is the Coles notes version. My first question would be what role does the Holy Spirit play in this?

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[rockytopva]

It seems like you are saying that there is a true and correct reading of any particular scripture (although of course there are layers of meanings that can all be true), and that these things are revealed to mature, true Christians. Obviously that is the Coles notes version. My first question would be what role does the Holy Spirit play in this?

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

I believe there are seven steps in receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, so read out of the devotions of William Seymour and in metaphor of the Hebrew temple...

1 . Outer Gates - Faith - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28
2. The Alter - Salvation - Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: - 1 Cor 5:7
3. The Laver - Sanctification - Conforming oneself to some righteous believers standard.
***The Inner Temple = Inner Sanctification***
4. The Table of Shewbread - The reading and meditation of God's word.
5. The Lampstand - Acquiring the proper E/c2... E (energy, motivation) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)
6. The Alter of Golden Incense - Prayer and praise - It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; - 2 Chronicles 5:13
***The veil is what divides the Inner temple from the Holy of Holies***
7. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit - The Ark of the Covenant - In which, William Seymour, the architect of this doctrine issues the following warning... “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”

If you receive the Holy Spirit you will have acquired the greatest of teachers, a Spirit who will lead you in all truth.

 

[Athée]

Athee, The reason why your group ended with the guys saying they don't have a answer for this problem, is because they are ones causing the problem and there are many who do this.

Here is the problem: When a group of "Cool Guys" get together for Bible Study and try to interpret Scripture, doing so is wrong. Why? Because the whole of the Bible has already been interpreted by the Church, in it's infancy aka Catholic Church.

Since the Protestant Reformation in the 15th century to this very day there are many, some say over 33,000 protestant churches and counting having the problem of different interpretations of Scripture that these "Cool Guys" can't answer.

Here is the answer: Follow the first and only interpretation of the whole Bible/Scripture, of the Catholic Church and you will not go wrong, all other interpretations of Scripture is what is causing the Disagreement that you wrote of. Amen

I don't know a lot of Catholics, are there any disagreements within the Catholic church?

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[Athée]

That is interesting, I thought that the Holy Spirit led believers I to all truth. Why do you think the Spirit does not do this?
Also are you referring to the Catholic church, as I said to another poster, I don't know if much about Catholics. Are there any disagreements among catholics on scriptural interpretations?

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[Athée]

Important correction. Every believer has the anointing of the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit will teach him. It's very important that all Christians understand that they need to rely on only Jesus Christ. Not on man or church to teach them scripture. Teaching from a man of God is great, however, we as believers are not dependent on teachers for we are given the greatest teacher of all. The Holy Spirit.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He shall guide you into all the truth: for He shall not speak from Himself; but what things soever He shall hear, these shall He speak: and He shall declare unto you the things that are to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you."

So we see here that Christ promised to the apostles here that the Holy Spirit would teach them. However, we see the apostles teach that the Holy Spirit will teach every believer "all truth".

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

We see here that every believer does actually have the Holy Spirit teaching them if they seek God and allow him to teach them. The Holy Spirit will teach you. Every single believer has this anointing. The actual problem is we rely TOO MUCH on men for teaching and not the Holy Spirit. Men are vulnerable to sin, doubt, unbelief, ignorance, laziness, ect. Many believers are caught up in denominations which the Bible doesn't support. The church should be one. However, the hardness of our hearts, arguing, bickering back and forth, unbelief, spiritual weakness, among many other things has allowed division of the church which should not have happened. At least most denominations get that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father, but even in denominations you have men preaching heresy. This is why we rely on the Holy Spirit, God. Not men.

Relying on men gets you into trouble. Confirm everything a man tells you with the scripture and your own prayer and study. Dont always go off what someone tells you. If something confuses you, pray, and read the entire chapter that the verse is in and get scriptural clues about what's going on.

So my question based on this would be if humans are so prone to error in these matters why would you trust your interpretations of the Bible or the responses you seem to be getting from the holy Spirit. Aren't you using the same faculties to parse these experiences as the ones that get you into trouble in the first place?

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[Athée]

Okay suppose we have 70 students in a classroom. We have a tablet written in an unknown language that these students are going to have to interpret. Some of the students are really interested in ancient languages, some of them so-so, and some of them are just there because they need the credit to pass. Some a lazy, some are efficient; some bright, some not so much. Some are gifted with a keen ability to understand language constructs. Some are disciples of certain language theories both orthodox and unorthodox. So at the beginning of the year they go to work. Some of the words are more readily determined than the other: but even these words aren't super clear. Does this word mean "sky" or possibly "lofty" (one guy says "I believe this is more of a "kingly" word, perhaps a language of government?).

So all of these students are building and building on each new revelation, arguing and throwing back and forth ideas "There is no way that phrase means 'door of angels' it is clearly 'way of stars'!" "Stars?! That is absurd!" They all have their interpretations "Budge says this word means 'priest' and that is that!" "It doesn't mean priest in this context." *gasp* "You dare challenge Budge! He is smarter than your whole group put together!" Piece by piece things become clearer; ground is given, threats are made, walls are raised; but time marches on. The more that is revealed, the clearer it becomes. Fragmented schisms gradually give way to a more cohesive understanding.

Blood, sweat and tears as the end of the year approaches. Everything is coming together. Old tensions fade, and handshakes are shaken; apologies are given and at long last everything is made clear. The students read the message finally understood after all this time. "Be sure... to drink... your Ovaltine?!" Okay that's a joke, but the principle is the same. Humans are learning how to speak in a unified and objective abstraction; that is really what is going on. The only difference is that, in Christianity, people condemn each other to unimaginable fates for not interpreting things they don't fully understand in exact manner as everyone else who also doesn't fully understand. Something like that, anyway.

It ses to me that your analogy is missing an equivalence for the Holy Spirit. How would the situation play out if the person who had made the odd inscription whispered the exact same translation into everyone's ear and they all knew that this was the truth of the matter?

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[rockytopva]

The Holy Spirit leads us all to different churches. Some Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Methodist/Pentecostal, Charismatic. I would pray and let the Holy Spirit guide me as to what church is right for me. I would make following the Holy Spirit first place, and then dwell in whatever church he leads me.

The story of Robert Sheffy, Saint of the Wilderness, who dwelt in the Methodist church even though he was at odds with them on occasion...

 

[Athée]

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts. - Proverbs 21:2

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

The problem with spirituality is that it is neither intelligence or mass... therefore it cannot be purchased or taught. This is also a problem in Christianity.... Just because one has arrived at superior doctrine does not mean he is spiritual.

I am totally confused, I'm afraid. Could you try to make your point in a different way for me
Thanks

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[Athée]

I believe there are seven steps in receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, so read out of the devotions of William Seymour and in metaphor of the Hebrew temple...

1 . Outer Gates - Faith - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28
2. The Alter - Salvation - Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: - 1 Cor 5:7
3. The Laver - Sanctification - Conforming oneself to some righteous believers standard.
***The Inner Temple = Inner Sanctification***
4. The Table of Shewbread - The reading and meditation of God's word.
5. The Lampstand - Acquiring the proper E/c2... E (energy, motivation) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)
6. The Alter of Golden Incense - Prayer and praise - It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; - 2 Chronicles 5:13
***The veil is what divides the Inner temple from the Holy of Holies***
7. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit - The Ark of the Covenant - In which, William Seymour, the architect of this doctrine issues the following warning... “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”

If you receive the Holy Spirit you will have acquired the greatest of teachers, a Spirit who will lead you in all truth.

OK so if all Christians have the holy Spirit to teach them the actual truth of the matter, why are there so many Christians who believe they are in dwelt by that holy Spirit, who disagree with each other?

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