Why did Jesus need to die?

[doubtingmerle]

We are told that Jesus died for our sins, because otherwise God could not forgive us. That makes no sense to me. If God wanted to forgive, why doesn't he just forgive? Why does he need the death of his son in order to forgive us?

 

[dogs4thewin]

because the forgiveness of sin requires the shedding of blood. That is why before Christ died animals had to be sacified in order for Israel to stay clean in God's sight.

 

[JackRT]

because the forgiveness of sin requires the shedding of blood. That is why before Christ died animals had to be sacified in order for Israel to stay clean in God's sight.

This certainly was the belief of the Hebrew/Jewish people. However what this does is to impose human limits on God. God has no limitations and can certainly forgive without the shedding of blood.

Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.

I am convinced that all God requires for the forgiveness of sins is sincere contrition. So, in answer to the OP, I no longer believe that the death of Jesus was substitutionary atonement.

 

[smithed64]

This certainly was the belief of the Hebrew/Jewish people. However what this does is to impose human limits on God. God has no limitations and can certainly forgive without the shedding of blood.

Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.

I am convinced that all God requires for the forgiveness of sins is sincere contrition. So, in answer to the OP, I no longer believe that the death of Jesus was substitutionary atonement.

So man saves himself then?

 

[Greg J.]

Justice requires a price to be paid. Would it be just for a judge to "just forgive" someone just convicted of murder? I'm not sure when the trend started to feel compassion for criminals instead of the victims. Don't only look at the criminal, look at the victims and the crime's effect on other people. Crimes destroy people and society as they knew it. Would your perspective be any different if one of your family members was the victim of a senseless crime?

In the case of our sins, God couldn't forgive without the proper price being paid because it would have been unjust. That is part of his eternal nature, not really something he chose (from our perspective). The reason Jesus could be our kinsman-redeemer was because that was acceptable payment in God's nature.

 

[JackRT]

In the case of our sins, God couldn't forgive without the proper price being paid because it would have been unjust.

That is one popular theological point of view. I disagree with it because it reduces God to a vengeful tyrant who needs to be bought off.

 

[Greg J.]

(1) The victim can forgive the criminal from their heart and not hold it against them. However, that doesn't affect the forgiveness of the government. (2) The government requires punishment, after which the person is forgiven. (3) And that doesn't affect the forgiveness for the one who oversees morality. For that the punishment must be paid for moral forgiveness, which we have through Jesus Christ if our hearts are in agreement.

The way I see your perspective is that you are trying to resolve #3 as if it is #1.

 

[JackRT]

Forgiveness is not contingent on punishment.

 

[Greg J.]

Righteousness is contingent on justice. It's easy to get spoiled because we have Jesus Christ's sacrifice. Consider the question as if Jesus never paid for your sins: God would have continued to love you, but you would not be forgiven, because he represents #3 not (or much more than) #1. While God is a person able to forgive or not forgive, he is also like the laws of physics for morality. They do not change just because he loves someone.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Justice requires a price to be paid. Would it be just for a judge to "just forgive" someone just convicted of murder?

Our Presidents sometimes pardon people. They do not require their son to be killed before they issue a pardon.

 

[doubtingmerle]

In the case of our sins, God couldn't forgive without the proper price being paid because it would have been unjust.

You can forgive without somebody first killing your son. Why cannot God forgive without somebody first killing his son?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Righteousness is contingent on justice. It's easy to get spoiled because we have Jesus Christ's sacrifice. Consider the question as if Jesus never paid for your sins: God would have continued to love you, but you would not be forgiven, because he represents #3 not (or much more than) #1. While God is a person able to forgive or not forgive, he is also like the laws of physics for morality. They do not change just because he loves someone.

I know of no law that says we need to kill an innocent son before a person can forgive.

 

[Greg J.]

The #3 is called right and wrong for us, not "forgiven by God" or "not forgiven by God." Whether a person agrees or not, it is immoral for God to overlook our evil, just like it is wrong if after a mass bombing the bomber is considered the equal of those who he killed or those not involved. No need to say sorry. No need to spend time in jail. "It's all good. No problem."

It is the nature of God to reward good and punish evil. If someone wants to do evil with no consequences, then he's just out of luck. That's the reality. He can dislike or reject reality all he wants, but it won't change it. You can dislike or hate God, but that won't change it either.

It is within my lifetime (in America) that people have come to stop presuming evil is bad. I hope the irrationality of that is obvious. Things are only bad because they partake of the nature of evil. The pain people dislike is only the result of evil. To want God to forgive someone with no payment is like saying, I don't care what the consequences are of evil deeds or good deeds. Most people's complaining about God in this way is a testimony that their sense of right and wrong is deceived. With a little digging, one can find that what they feel is satisfactory behavior by God is even inconsistent with their own sense of logic. Everyone has condemned themselves even when they will be judged according to their own moral standard (Romans 2:12).

If one wants to prosper after doing evil (or have no consequences), it means his thinking is rooted in something that is 180° from intelligent, wise, and healthy thinking. It has been corrupted to think evil isn't so bad and good isn't anything special, when in fact those are contrary to the definitions of evil and good, which means their nature and their logic is broken.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29, 1984 NIV)

 

[doubtingmerle]

It is the nature of God to reward good and punish evil. If someone wants to do evil with no consequences, then he's just out of luck. That's the reality.

How does killing somebody else for my sin count as me paying a consequence for my sin?

It is within my lifetime (in America) that people have come to stop presuming evil is bad.

Just curious, what planet do you live on?

My comments in the OP were referring to planet earth.

 

[Alla27]

because the forgiveness of sin requires the shedding of blood.

why?

 

[Alla27]

So man saves himself then?

good question. Why can't men save themselves?

 

[Alla27]

Justice requires a price to be paid. Would it be just for a judge to "just forgive" someone just convicted of murder?

I agree. But this is the question:
Why does Jesus have to pay price for my sins? Why can't I pay price for my own sins?

The reason Jesus could be our kinsman-redeemer was because that was acceptable payment in God's nature.

why was it acceptable?
was it necessary for Christ to be killed in order to pay the price? if "yes" why?

 

[Alla27]

error

 

[Alla27]

How does killing somebody else for my sin count as me paying a consequence for my sin?

good question

 

[dogs4thewin]

why?

because God cannot be around sin and the shedding of blood is the only way to forgive sin. I am not sure why that is.