Why did Jesus have to die?

[AnticipateHisComing]

If you are saying according to the statement below that the cross was one of many ways, then what would be your other propositions. Pleases list them so that we can discuss each of them, in order to scrutinise whether they are valid or not.

I believe I have posted before animal sacrifices or even in jest, rosaries. The point is not to scrutinize a myriad of possibilities, but to ponder why God chose for Jesus to die as the best plan for our salvation.

I had hoped that this thread would explore why God chose to put in scripture "the wages of sin is death". The law as written by God defines a certain punishment and a payment that redeems those subject to punishment. I believe that God is not subject to a set of rules that forces the death penalty, but that he chose this penalty as part of a greater plan. That plan we can be assured is the best plan, but why is it the best plan? Why is the new covenant, remembering Jesus death a better covenant than offering animal sacrifices for sins? I think that God could have had scripture say animal sacrifices would be sufficient payment. Or if you don't like that payment plan, how about saying some rosaries. Regardless, God could have arbitrarily come up with any number of other methods of redemption.

 

[Berean777]

I believe I have posted before animal sacrifices or even in jest, rosaries. The point is not to scrutinize a myriad of possibilities, but to ponder why God chose for Jesus to die as the best plan for our salvation.

But this is a no brainer friend for God hated these sacrifices and feast dsys because he said so.

Amos 5:21-23King James Version (KJV)
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

So rosemarys will completely enrage God if you ever substituted anything else in place of the cross, it would be an abomination to the Lord our God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus had to die because Moses Struck the rock with the priest's staff instead of speaking to it. That is why Moses didn't go into the promised land and why Jesus mourned when he entered Jerusalem on a donkey

 

[BobRyan]

Did Satan have any part in writing the law? Does God need Satan to enforce his righteous judgement?

In both cases - the answer is no.

How is Satan responsible for our death then? Only in tempting us to sin. That is his only power and it is an indirect power, for ultimately our physical and spiritual death can be pardoned by the grace of God.

True.

Satan can not bring up false accusations against man to God.

Yes he is - -see Job 1,, and Job 2.
And Rev 13
And Daniel 7.

Satan does not need to deceive God. Like two men running from a bear the first man prays that he may outrun the bear -- the other man only prays that he may outrun the first man.

Accusation: a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.

A false accusation would be saying one did something wrong when they did not. God knows all that we do.

God claims that Job is rigtheous - Satan says that Job is selfish and God is bribing Job to pretend that he is righteous - and Job is slyly going along with the bribe as if he is actually righteous.


It is impossible for a false charge to stand before God. In Job there are no charges by Satan of a wrong doing by Job whether true or false.
[/quote]

Satan argues that Job is not righteous - rather that he is taking a bribe and merely faking the righteousness.

Satan is certainly the accuser as Rev 12 says, my contention is that he can not deceive God with FALSE accusation and does not need to. We have enough sin in our lives that Satan does not have to make up false accusations against us.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

[/QUOTE]

The counter to your argument is not that Satan accuses the saints to "deceive God" rather the counter to your argument is that in Dan 7:10 and in Job 1 it is a vast assembly that meets and before the assembly the saints are accused and God's character, justice and Law are impugned. To make his case and get his result - Satan does not need to suppose that God will be duped -- merely that the free will, intelligent beings in the assembly can be duped.

 

[Blank Stair]

And this is in the Bible?

Certainly.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Jesus had to die because Moses Struck the rock with the priest's staff instead of speaking to it. That is why Moses didn't go into the promised land and why Jesus mourned when he entered Jerusalem on a donkey

Jesus himself said Jerusalem was going to be destroyed because the Jews did not recognize him as God.

Luke 19:41 As he[Jesus] approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

In the same manner today, Israel will never have peace as long as the Jews continue to reject Jesus.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The counter to your argument is not that Satan accuses the saints to "deceive God" rather the counter to your argument is that in Dan 7:10 and in Job 1 it is a vast assembly that meets and before the assembly the saints are accused and God's character, justice and Law are impugned. To make his case and get his result - Satan does not need to suppose that God will be duped -- merely that the free will, intelligent beings in the assembly can be duped.

My initial argument with Berean777 was with the expression that Satan could bring "false accusations" to God. You seem to agree with me here in that the accusations Satan brings before God are not false.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't claim that Satan's accusations against Job were proven to be accurate. Rather in Job 1 and 2 God responds to Satan that his charges have been proven to be false. However I don't think Satan ever had a chance of deceiving God - I think his real intent was to deceive all the others at the Job 1 and Job 2 event.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

God claims that Job is rigtheous - Satan says that Job is selfish and God is bribing Job to pretend that he is righteous - and Job is slyly going along with the bribe as if he is actually righteous.

Satan argues that Job is not righteous - rather that he is taking a bribe and merely faking the righteousness.

Satan does not say Job was selfish. There is no false accusation in what Job has done, only a question of what he would do. So it is with Satan for he can not read our mind or judge our hearts.

Righteous: means to not sin.
Satan: whole mission is to tempt us to sin.
God: says Job is righteous in his actions.
Satan: says Job will sin if tempted with a greater temptation.
Job: was tempted twice but did not sin with a curse of God.

End of story, if there were only 2 chapters in the book of Job.
Read the chapters 3 to 42 to learn that Job did repent of a proud heart that thought himself undeserving of his punishments.

Satan can only see our actions, God knows our actions and heart and mind. Does Job teach us the God allows us to be tempted so that we will sin? No. Does God allow us to be tempted so he can judge what is in our heart? No, he already knows our heart. I think that Job teaches that God allows us to be tested so that we may see where our heart is, what our failings are and improve on them.

If the book of Job was about teaching the power of Satan to accuse us before God, surely it would have recorded an exchange between God and Satan when Job did repent of wrongdoing in the end.

Job 1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

Job 2:3 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” 4 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” 6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.

9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Job 32 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

Job 33:8 “But you have said in my hearing—
I heard the very words—
9 ‘I am pure, I have done no wrong;
I am clean and free from sin.
10 Yet God has found fault with me;
he considers me his enemy.

Job 38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?

40 The Lord said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

42 Then Job replied to the Lord:
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”​

​

 

[YSam44]

You sin, you die. Tell that to Enoch and Elijah. Which scripture do you want to say is in error: All have sinned or Enoch and Elijah did not die?

I am getting tired of repeating this. All sin, all do not die. You write a made up rule that is not absolute, therefore your argument is invalid.

Well, that's in gross error..

Hebrews 11:13 "For all these died... " Enoch is included in the previous verses.. Moses to is included in this chapter...

Elijah died as well! He died later than the event that Elisha replaced him. You can see he later wrote a letter to Jereboam. To help Elisha as the Kings would not hearken unto Elisha's voice.

 

[BobRyan]

Elijah and Enoch did not die. Moses died.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68518250, member: 235244"]In both cases - the answer is no.

True.
-- Satan falsely accuses -

- -see Job 1,, and Job 2.
And Rev 13
And Daniel 7.

Satan does not need to deceive God. Like two men running from a bear the first man prays that he may outrun the bear -- the other man only prays that he may outrun the first man.

God claims that Job is rigtheous - Satan says that Job is selfish and God is bribing Job to pretend that he is righteous - and Job is slyly going along with the bribe as if he is actually righteous.


It is impossible for a false charge to stand before God. In Job there are no charges by Satan of a wrong doing by Job whether true or false.

Satan argues that Job is not righteous - rather that he is taking a bribe and merely faking the righteousness.

The counter to your argument is not that Satan accuses the saints to "deceive God" rather the counter to your argument is that in Dan 7:10 and in Job 1 it is a vast assembly that meets and before the assembly the saints are accused (Rev 12) and God's character, justice and Law are impugned. To make his case and get his result - Satan does not need to suppose that God will be duped -- merely that the free will, intelligent beings in the assembly can be duped.[/QUOTE]

Job 1
8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil.”

9 Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Haven’t You placed a hedge around him, his household, and everything he owns? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out Your hand and strike everything he owns, and he will surely curse You to Your face.”

Job 2
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

Satan does not say Job was selfish. There is no false accusation in what Job has done, only a question of what he would do

Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them. you do not gather bad fruit from a good tree"

Satan's argument is that this is a bad tree and that the right circumstances will show it.

 

[BobRyan]

Christians are constantly reminded of Jesus death even by the many that wear crosses. It is ingrained in our faith that Jesus died for our salvation; but have your ever thought about why Jesus had to die for our salvation?

I hope for this thread to go beyond the obvious; that the wages of sin is death.

The Romans 6:23 statement that you are trying to "go beyond" is the key.

God foreknew all that would happen at creation. Every word of scripture is God's plan. God's plan since creation was for his Son to die. He could have just as easily planed redemption to be something much easier than the harsh death of crucifixion for his Son. For some reason God chose blood and sacrifice to be the payment for our salvation. Any thoughts on why?

Because of "free will" -- he needed the highest penalty for rebellion to discourage it among free will beings. And if anyone was to be forgiven - then the penalty must be "paid anyway" ... so that the LAW of God is upheld rather than abolished via the process of forgiveness.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[YSam44]

Elijah and Enoch did not die. Moses died.

Well, Lucy... you have the floor... please first explain how Enoch didn't die when we are told by God that Enoch died in Hebrews chapter 11.

Then explain when and where did Elijah not die.

 

[BobRyan]

No text in the Bible says "Enoch died".
No text in the Bible says "Elijah died" he does not die and neither is he buried -- according to the Bible.

2 Kings 2
And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;



Rather we are told that Enoch was taken to heaven without seeing death.
And that Elijah was also taken to heaven instead of dying.

(Not sure if Lucy would have known about this - but the Bible does)

 

[YSam44]

No text in the Bible says "Enoch died".
No text in the Bible says "Elijah died" he does not die and neither is he buried -- according to the Bible.

2 Kings 2
And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;



Rather we are told that Enoch was taken to heaven without seeing death.
And that Elijah was also taken to heaven instead of dying.

(Not sure if Lucy would have known about this - but the Bible does)

LOL at Lucy

But lets stay on Enoch for a minute...

Hebrews chapter 11 states Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah... verse 13 "These all died in faith not having received the promise...

So believe it or not, God does tell us here that Enoch died... Correct?

Lets stay on Enoch for a minute longer...

So do you believe the bible says Enoch died?

It might at first glance appear to be a contradiction but its not!

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Well, that's in gross error..

Hebrews 11:13 "For all these died... " Enoch is included in the previous verses.. Moses to is included in this chapter...

Elijah died as well! He died later than the event that Elisha replaced him. You can see he later wrote a letter to Jereboam. To help Elisha as the Kings would not hearken unto Elisha's voice.

Gross error is to think the Bible contains errors, not exceptions. For in Enoch you think to have a contradiction so you choose to ignore certain scripture that says Enoch did not die.

Genesis 5 clearly distinguishes Enoch as an exception to the 8 generations that did die.

5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.
8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.
11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.
14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.
17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.
20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.
23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.
31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”

Heb 11:13 For all these died

You throw out clear scripture because of a pronoun and the assumption of who these includes. Maybe these are only the ones that died, the exception listed by scripture being Enoch. Imagine Heb 11:13 written as "For all these that died". Imagine a Bible where it is all true. Imagine two contradicting verses. If both are true than the contradiction must highlight an exception or qualification of the other statement.

 

[BobRyan]

In Heb 11 the point is "they did not receive the promise" - this includes Enoch - because as Matt 5 states "the meek shall inherit the Earth" - the promise to the saints is the "New Heavens and New Earth" and as Rev 21 says a city that comes down out of heaven - the heavenly Jerusalem. In Heb 11 "a city whose builder and maker is God" - that comes down out of heaven according to John - after the 1000 years.

None of those listed in Heb 11 received the Rev 21 New Earth - even though Enoch has not died - still he is not at the Rev 21 point.

Heb 11 concludes with this

39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Matthew Henry's commentary on Heb 11 and Enoch.

• (2.) That he was translated, that he should not see death, nor any part of him be found upon earth; for God took him, soul and body, into heaven, as he will do those of the saints who shall be found alive at his second coming.
• (3.) That before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. He had the evidence of it in his own conscience, and the Spirit of God witnessed with his spirit. Those who by faith walk with God in a sinful world are pleasing to him, and he will give them marks of his favour, and put honour upon them.

 

[YSam44]

Gross error is to think the Bible contains errors, not exceptions. For in Enoch you think to have a contradiction so you choose to ignore certain scripture that says Enoch did not die.

Genesis 5 clearly distinguishes Enoch as an exception to the 8 generations that did die.

I never said the bible contradicts itself. Go back and read my post. I said it appears that it might. However it cannot. We might discover the reason for this if we continue in the conversation and believe what the bible says without adding our own embellishments.

23 All the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24 And he walked with God, then he not (could not be found), for God took him. (original hebrew translation which Paul supports)

V 23 Enoch lived a total of 365 years. What is the opposite of live? Talk about glossing over scripture.

V 24 Obviously God took Enoch, but it does not say where? Lets not assume anything. Just as the scripture states he was taken. Does not say that Enoch was taken to heaven and never died.

Heb 11 the faith chapter
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob

Heb 11:13 For all these died in the faith not receiving the promise

Who is throwing out clear scripture. Right here we are told in this chapter that Enoch died!

You throw out clear scripture because of a pronoun and the assumption of who these includes. Maybe these are only the ones that died, the exception listed by scripture being Enoch. Imagine Heb 11:13 written as "For all these that died". Imagine a Bible where it is all true. Imagine two contradicting verses. If both are true than the contradiction must highlight an exception or qualification of the other statement.

There is no assumption of who "these" included. I will note here you use of the word "Maybe" and your use of "Imagine"
My bible doesnt say Maybe these all died, nor does it say Imagine these all died. We can Maybe and Imagine if a frog had wings.

Lets not add to or take away from the words written for us.

 

[YSam44]

In Heb 11 the point is "they did not receive the promise" - this includes Enoch - because as Matt 5 states "the meek shall inherit the Earth" - the promise to the saints is the "New Heavens and New Earth" and as Rev 21 says a city that comes down out of heaven - the heavenly Jerusalem. In Heb 11 "a city whose builder and maker is God" - that comes down out of heaven according to John - after the 1000 years.

None of those listed in Heb 11 received the Rev 21 New Earth - even though Enoch has not died - still he is not at the Rev 21 point.

Heb 11 concludes with this

39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Matthew Henry's commentary on Heb 11 and Enoch.

• (2.) That he was translated, that he should not see death, nor any part of him be found upon earth; for God took him, soul and body, into heaven, as he will do those of the saints who shall be found alive at his second coming.
• (3.) That before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. He had the evidence of it in his own conscience, and the Spirit of God witnessed with his spirit. Those who by faith walk with God in a sinful world are pleasing to him, and he will give them marks of his favour, and put honour upon them.

So answer this, what is the promise?