Why Did God make men ?

[rnmomof7]

It seems to me that so many theological question revolve are this question ..

Why did God create the universe, the earth , and man ? What was the purpose ?

 

[James Is Back]

Rev 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[bling]

A tree brings glory to God by being a tree, so we need more than just that.

When we talk about “God’s pleasure” we have to keep in mind what gives a totally unselfish being “pleasure” (serving others).

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.


What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

 

[rnmomof7]

A tree brings glory to God by being a tree, so we need more than just that.

When we talk about “God’s pleasure” we have to keep in mind what gives a totally unselfish being “pleasure” (serving others).

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

Does God love those that hate Him? Does God love those that sin?

Scripture indicates otherwise .

There are clearly things and people God hates.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

God does want....demand something from His creation ...GLORY

We were created for just that purpose ... to glorify HIM

Scripture is full of this demand

Isaiah 40:4–5, “Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; . . . And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Isaiah 60:2, “For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the Lord will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you.”

So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.


What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

There is not one thing God can not do ... The NATURAL man can not love God because of the fall .. Without grace men wonder this world carrying the sin burden of Adam ..and loving it ...

Could you provide scripture that God can not save who He chooses?

Can a spiritually dead man choose spiritual life ?

Is God so helpless ??

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

Are those that refuse not as smart? not as holy? not as clever ?
Why would anyone reject the promise of eternal life?

An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

God is a selfish God.. He tells us that ... He will have no other gods before Him

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

God is also justice , wrath , jealousy , righteousness ,

We have become a people that like to center on His love ...because we can not imagine we are not lovable.. but the fact is we are a corrupt , sinful people that can only be saved by His grace

 

[OSAS Apostle]

Does God love those that hate Him? Does God love those that sin?

. but the fact is we are a corrupt , sinful people

Did God intend for us to be corrupt sinful people ? If so then why ? Or was it something to do with free will!

 

[bling]

Does God love those that hate Him? Does God love those that sin?

Scripture indicates otherwise .

Do we all start out “hating” God?

Did Saul when he was persecuting Christians not really “hate” Deity (Christ) so did God still “Love” Saul/Paul?

Did God Love David while he was committing murder and adultery?

Can you Love a sinner and if so is your love greater than God’s Love?

You are to Love your enemy, so could you Love a modern day Saul type that was torturing and killing your family and friends and coming after you?

There are clearly things and people God hates.

We use “hate” lots of times to mean the opposite of Love, but is that the way Deity (Christ/God) use the word “Hate”, for we are to “hate” our own family Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.”?

We are to both Love and “hate” our family, so both can be done at the same time, so can God/Christ both Love and hate at the same time?

Is “hate” subjective, so you Love God/Christ and in relationship to that Love everything else is hated?

God could still “Love” Esau but God could also realize even before his birth, He could not work with/through Esau to complete the objective and God would have hated that fact, but as bad as Jacob was God could work with Jacob and that would be pleasing to God. So can we still “Love” the sinner and hate the situation the sinner has gotten himself into?

God does want....demand something from His creation ...GLORY

We were created for just that purpose ... to glorify HIM

Can a person do stuff that does not bring glory to God?

If you do stuff without Godly type Love does that have any “value” to you, God or anyone else (1 Cor. 13: 1-3)?

Who is determining if God is being glorified or not being glorified by your choices?

There is not one thing God can not do ... The NATURAL man can not love God because of the fall .. Without grace men wonder this world carrying the sin burden of Adam ..and loving it ...

Could God make a being that has always existed?

Can God “make” a god greater than himself?

No by definition that these are impossible.

Godly type Love instinctively placed in a being is also like these other impossible acts.

Could you provide scripture that God can not save who He chooses?

God has invited everyone to the banquet, but some of their own free will refuse to go (Matt. 22:1-14, Luke 14: 16-24), God has done all He can do to help those that are willing to accept God’s help and they will be save if they will accept that help. It would be unloving for God to “force” His Love on anyone refusing to accept that Love (this is like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). It would not only be unloving to do, but a love forced on a person is not Godly type Love.

Can a spiritually dead man choose spiritual life ?

Jesus could use any words He wanted to use in Luke 15: 11-32 the parable of the prodigal son but use the very best words to have the father (God) describe the condition of the young son. Jesus has the father say the son was dead twice, even when the father knew the son was physically alive. While in a dead state the son as a result of the situation he was in “came to his senses” (this was not done by some outside servant, father, friend or “spiritual being” coming to him). The son made the free will choice to repent.

Is God so helpless ??

Is your understand of God have God to be so unconcern as to not want to save everyone?

Are you believing God is fully able, but unwilling to save everyone?

My understanding of God has God fully willing and wanting to “save” everyone, but those that are not saved are those that do not want charity are any cost. Without the willingness to like and accept charity (Love) there is no place in heaven that is not like a huge Love feast so they would not be happy in heaven.

Are those that refuse not as smart? not as holy? not as clever ?
Why would anyone reject the promise of eternal life?

It has nothing to do with being: smarter, holier or clever, and actually those things can get in the way of accepting pure charity. Those things tend to make the person more self-reliant so they avoid becoming reliant on God.

Most people want to be loved (and love others) for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not in spite of how they really are.

People are not “rejecting” the promise of eternal life, since that takes faith in the unseen, but people are seeking the perceived pleasures of sin for even a season and in spite of the burden it has on their conscience. It takes a lot of effort to quench our own conscience, so those that eventually do turn to accept God’s help to relief them of the burden have just wimped out of the fight.

God is a selfish God.. He tells us that ... He will have no other gods before Him

How is that being “selfish”? There are no other gods period and certainly not before the God.

God wants us to be reliant on Him, so that is just an increased burden on God.

God is also justice , wrath , jealousy , righteousness ,

God is all those things and more, but He is the ultimate Lover along with all those other traits, so none of them get in the way of God’s Love.

We have become a people that like to center on His love ...because we can not imagine we are not lovable.. but the fact is we are a corrupt , sinful people that can only be saved by His grace

We know we are totally unlovable, totally undeserving, and start out extremely selfish. We start out like the Prodigal son in a foreign land and if we stay there will eventually wind up a loan and in a pigsty of life starving to death. We, for very selfish reasons, should and can turn to God willing to accept His help and God will help us, but we can be macho, take the punishment we deserve, not selfishly disturb our father more and die in the pigsty.

 

[rnmomof7]

Did God intend for us to be corrupt sinful people ? If so then why ? Or was it something to do with free will!

If man never sinned.. how would we ever know the attributes of God ?

Would man have ever learned about God's righteousness?, wrath?, justice or mercy?

Remember man was made to glorify God ... He could never have had complete glory if man had only a limited knowledge of who He is

Man would never had a complete understanding of God.. .

Remember before the earth was formed, the plan of salvation was in place

 

[rnmomof7]

Do we all start out “hating” God?

Did Saul when he was persecuting Christians not really “hate” Deity (Christ) so did God still “Love” Saul/Paul?

Did God Love David while he was committing murder and adultery?

Can you Love a sinner and if so is your love greater than God’s Love?

You are to Love your enemy, so could you Love a modern day Saul type that was torturing and killing your family and friends and coming after you?




We use “hate” lots of times to mean the opposite of Love, but is that the way Deity (Christ/God) use the word “Hate”, for we are to “hate” our own family Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.”?

We are to both Love and “hate” our family, so both can be done at the same time, so can God/Christ both Love and hate at the same time?

Is “hate” subjective, so you Love God/Christ and in relationship to that Love everything else is hated?

God could still “Love” Esau but God could also realize even before his birth, He could not work with/through Esau to complete the objective and God would have hated that fact, but as bad as Jacob was God could work with Jacob and that would be pleasing to God. So can we still “Love” the sinner and hate the situation the sinner has gotten himself into?




Can a person do stuff that does not bring glory to God?

If you do stuff without Godly type Love does that have any “value” to you, God or anyone else (1 Cor. 13: 1-3)?

Who is determining if God is being glorified or not being glorified by your choices?







Could God make a being that has always existed?

Can God “make” a god greater than himself?

No by definition that these are impossible.

Godly type Love instinctively placed in a being is also like these other impossible acts.



God has invited everyone to the banquet, but some of their own free will refuse to go (Matt. 22:1-14, Luke 14: 16-24), God has done all He can do to help those that are willing to accept God’s help and they will be save if they will accept that help. It would be unloving for God to “force” His Love on anyone refusing to accept that Love (this is like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun). It would not only be unloving to do, but a love forced on a person is not Godly type Love.



Jesus could use any words He wanted to use in Luke 15: 11-32 the parable of the prodigal son but use the very best words to have the father (God) describe the condition of the young son. Jesus has the father say the son was dead twice, even when the father knew the son was physically alive. While in a dead state the son as a result of the situation he was in “came to his senses” (this was not done by some outside servant, father, friend or “spiritual being” coming to him). The son made the free will choice to repent.



Is your understand of God have God to be so unconcern as to not want to save everyone?

Are you believing God is fully able, but unwilling to save everyone?

My understanding of God has God fully willing and wanting to “save” everyone, but those that are not saved are those that do not want charity are any cost. Without the willingness to like and accept charity (Love) there is no place in heaven that is not like a huge Love feast so they would not be happy in heaven.




It has nothing to do with being: smarter, holier or clever, and actually those things can get in the way of accepting pure charity. Those things tend to make the person more self-reliant so they avoid becoming reliant on God.

Most people want to be loved (and love others) for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not in spite of how they really are.

People are not “rejecting” the promise of eternal life, since that takes faith in the unseen, but people are seeking the perceived pleasures of sin for even a season and in spite of the burden it has on their conscience. It takes a lot of effort to quench our own conscience, so those that eventually do turn to accept God’s help to relief them of the burden have just wimped out of the fight.




How is that being “selfish”? There are no other gods period and certainly not before the God.

God wants us to be reliant on Him, so that is just an increased burden on God.


God is all those things and more, but He is the ultimate Lover along with all those other traits, so none of them get in the way of God’s Love.



We know we are totally unlovable, totally undeserving, and start out extremely selfish. We start out like the Prodigal son in a foreign land and if we stay there will eventually wind up a loan and in a pigsty of life starving to death. We, for very selfish reasons, should and can turn to God willing to accept His help and God will help us, but we can be macho, take the punishment we deserve, not selfishly disturb our father more and die in the pigsty.

Still looking for an explanation why 2 men , hearing the same gospel ...one will fall on his face in repentance and the other will walk away ?? Why was one "more self reliant "


Is the one that hears and comes smarter, more clever or more holy??
I believe his salvation from beginning to end is all of God...

Did God "force" His love on Paul ? Or did the presence of God draw him? The grace of God overwhelming man draws him... God tells us about this love


Jer.31:3
The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.[/B]


Hosea 11:4
I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love. To them I was like one who lifts a little child to the cheek, and I bent down to feed them.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has drawn them."[/b]


Remember in the parable of the prodigal son, the son was always the son.. he did not suddenly decide to be his son .. or choose him as his father
to benefit from the riches of his father .

Reading we find out that the son "came to his senses" ... (he realized the magnitude of his sin and wasted life... we could say he repented) and he ran home... not for favor or riches but to be forgiven and restored to his father..

18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.

21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.


We are born and live spiritually dead, until Gods grace draws us... and causes us to "come to our senses" (repent) and believe on Him we remain spiritually dead..


Eph 2
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[bling]

Still looking for an explanation why 2 men , hearing the same gospel ...one will fall on his face in repentance and the other will walk away ?? Why was one "more self reliant "


Is the one that hears and comes smarter, more clever or more holy??

I gave you Christ’s examples in parables (Matt.22:1-14, Luke14: 16-24), so where the poor homeless street people smarter, more holy, or more clever than those that gave excuses for not going to the banquet?

Did the first invited have a false pride, were they jealous of the master, did they want to feel special over others because they were invited while others were not? Where you invited to share in God’s grace while others were not so “lucky” or what do you contribute your good fortune over others to?

I believe his salvation from beginning to end is all of God...

Yes, salvation starts with God, He is the one who has prepared the banquet and invited everyone.

God is the one who has enabled all of be able to accept the invitation.

Did God "force" His love on Paul ? Or did the presence of God draw him? The grace of God overwhelming man draws him... God tells us about this love

Paul out of a false pride and not wanting to give up all had as an fanatic Pharisee could after reaching Damascus convinced himself he had experienced heat stroke, fallen from his horse, was blinded by the sun and had a nightmare. Paul even when he was Saul decided to accept what did happen and Jesus was the Christ.

The huge banquet is a huge draw and the servants can be very persuasive, but that does not mean people will not refuse to go.

Jer.31:3
The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying: "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.[/B]


Hosea 11:4
I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love. To them I was like one who lifts a little child to the cheek, and I bent down to feed them.

This is like many prophecies concerning Israel, but God also talks about repeatedly punishing them.

God always Love Israel but any promise of Good or Bad about a nation has to be read with Jer. 18 in mind: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

God also allowed them go into exile.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has drawn them."[/b]

Everyone that went to the banquet was drawn by the huge wonderful banquet, but some invited still refuse to go.

Remember in the parable of the prodigal son, the son was always the son.. he did not suddenly decide to be his son .. or choose him as his father
to benefit from the riches of his father .

Reading we find out that the son "came to his senses" ... (he realized the magnitude of his sin and wasted life... we could say he repented) and he ran home... not for favor or riches but to be forgiven and restored to his father..

18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.

21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

That is not the reason Jesus gave in the parable, since he did not say nor should the prodigal son expect the father to forgive him. He went back to continue living (not starve to death) and at least have some type of life even if he had to work hard.

The son confessed the facts the Father and everyone else knew.

We are born and live spiritually dead, until Gods grace draws us... and causes us to "come to our senses" (repent) and believe on Him we remain spiritually dead..

That again is not in the parable and very specifically says: “When he came to his senses”, there was no servant sent to the son nor did the father go to him with an invitation. The son came to his senses while he was still in a dead state like the Father (Jesus) describes him.

Where does it say the Father brought the son to his senses?

Eph 2
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yes, God transforms us (makes us alive from our dead state) and not we ourselves. We do not save ourselves, just as the prodigal son did not change from himself (It was all the Father’s doing (Love)). The prodigal son did nothing worthy or noble (just as we do not do anything worthy or noble in our dead state, but we can be accepting of God’s Love and allows God to prepare us for good works.

You avoided most of my questions last time but answer me this:

If Godly type Love did require just a little sovereign free will ability to choose to accept or reject God’s Love (charity), would God’s Love and power be great enough to allow all mature adults a little sovereign free will to allow at least some to be like God himself with this Love?

You keep asking about the difference between those that accept and reject God’s charity as if it had something to do with, education, physical ability, mental capacity, or environment. It only has to do with the individual’s sovereign free will ability given to all mature adults (part of the image of God). All mature adults are set up with the equal opportunity to accept or reject God’s charity, but that does not mean the opportunity itself is the exact same. The rich man had Lazarus at his door step, Saul/Paul had the light, and the eunuch had Phillip.

 

[Job8]

It seems to me that so many theological question revolve are this question ..

Why did God create the universe, the earth , and man ? What was the purpose ?

Even David was puzzled by this (Psalm 8:4). But when you read what Scripture has to say about the Church and its role in God's eternal plans and purposes. that should suffice.

 

[rnmomof7]

I gave you Christ’s examples in parables (Matt.22:1-14, Luke14: 16-24), so where the poor homeless street people smarter, more holy, or more clever than those that gave excuses for not going to the banquet?

Did the first invited have a false pride, were they jealous of the master, did they want to feel special over others because they were invited while others were not? Where you invited to share in God’s grace while others were not so “lucky” or what do you contribute your good fortune over others to?




Yes, salvation starts with God, He is the one who has prepared the banquet and invited everyone.

God is the one who has enabled all of be able to accept the invitation.




Paul out of a false pride and not wanting to give up all had as an fanatic Pharisee could after reaching Damascus convinced himself he had experienced heat stroke, fallen from his horse, was blinded by the sun and had a nightmare. Paul even when he was Saul decided to accept what did happen and Jesus was the Christ.

The huge banquet is a huge draw and the servants can be very persuasive, but that does not mean people will not refuse to go.



This is like many prophecies concerning Israel, but God also talks about repeatedly punishing them.

God always Love Israel but any promise of Good or Bad about a nation has to be read with Jer. 18 in mind: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

God also allowed them go into exile.




Everyone that went to the banquet was drawn by the huge wonderful banquet, but some invited still refuse to go.




That is not the reason Jesus gave in the parable, since he did not say nor should the prodigal son expect the father to forgive him. He went back to continue living (not starve to death) and at least have some type of life even if he had to work hard.

The son confessed the facts the Father and everyone else knew.




That again is not in the parable and very specifically says: “When he came to his senses”, there was no servant sent to the son nor did the father go to him with an invitation. The son came to his senses while he was still in a dead state like the Father (Jesus) describes him.

Where does it say the Father brought the son to his senses?




Yes, God transforms us (makes us alive from our dead state) and not we ourselves. We do not save ourselves, just as the prodigal son did not change from himself (It was all the Father’s doing (Love)). The prodigal son did nothing worthy or noble (just as we do not do anything worthy or noble in our dead state, but we can be accepting of God’s Love and allows God to prepare us for good works.

You avoided most of my questions last time but answer me this:

If Godly type Love did require just a little sovereign free will ability to choose to accept or reject God’s Love (charity), would God’s Love and power be great enough to allow all mature adults a little sovereign free will to allow at least some to be like God himself with this Love?

You keep asking about the difference between those that accept and reject God’s charity as if it had something to do with, education, physical ability, mental capacity, or environment. It only has to do with the individual’s sovereign free will ability given to all mature adults (part of the image of God). All mature adults are set up with the equal opportunity to accept or reject God’s charity, but that does not mean the opportunity itself is the exact same. The rich man had Lazarus at his door step, Saul/Paul had the light, and the eunuch had Phillip.

Do you really believe that all men have an equal ability to believe in Jesus ?

What about those that God place in places where that gospel was never preached? That never heard of Jesus ?

If all men have the same amount of grace necessary to believe that remains the question ... why do some men respond to that grace and others not ? Is the grace of God so weak and ineffective ?

See I know I was drawn by tender loving grace... as God has said..
"I am found by those that seek me not"

Men do not seek God.. He seeks and saves His own ...

We come ,not forced but drawn sweetly by His grace ....

I once was dead... but now I live ...

 

[OSAS Apostle]

If man never sinned.. how would we ever know the attributes of God ?

Would man have ever learned about God's righteousness?, wrath?, justice or mercy?

Depends, God could have intended/decreed that knowledge into every human that left it's mothers womb.
However, if I read you correctly, I would agree that God allowed man some latitude (yep, free will) to do his own thing and therefore learn more of the attributes of God.

Remember before the earth was formed, the plan of salvation was in place

Hmm, my gut reaction is to disagree here. I would go with the notion that God could handle any activity of man, say building the Tower of Babel, without having to constantly supervise, or predestine history. But then I am not a Supra Lapsarian.

 

[bling]

Do you really believe that all men have an equal ability to believe in Jesus ?

I believe God is fair/just.

All mature adults have an equal ability at some point in their life.

The Bible does not deal with those that are mentally challenged.

Would that not be fair/just?

What about those that God place in places where that gospel was never preached? That never heard of Jesus ?

They have the ability, but believers have not provided them the opportunity, but that does not mean they are hell bound.

All mature adults at some time in their life are brought to their senses by the situation they have gotten themselves into. They are burdened by the decisions in their past that have hurt others. They have unsuccessfully tried to relieve that burden through wrong methods, but they can choose to turn to the Creator of the Universe to seek and accept His help (Charity). Since God is right there with them want to help, will He help them? (What does the Bible say?)

Can Christ still be the solution for them without them realizing it?

Could people today be saved the way those before Christ went to the cross were saved?

God saves people and it is up to Him, but that does not mean all those that go to heaven will have fulfilled their earthly objective and thus would be lacking Godly type Love while in heaven.

If all men have the same amount of grace necessary to believe that remains the question ... why do some men respond to that grace and others not ? Is the grace of God so weak and ineffective ?

Again, it is not in any way God’s fault (God’s grace is totally sufficient) and all mature adults have the ability. Each mature adult has that little pit of miraculous sovereign free will ability to choose to accept or reject God’s Love (Charity). Some people do not like to be Loved in spite of who they are and do not like that kind of Love. Some want to be “loved” for how they want others to perceive them to be.

See I know I was drawn by tender loving grace... as God has said..
"I am found by those that seek me not"

That statement has to do with the Gentiles and in contrast to the Jews, but it is true of all those that find God/Christ in that Deity is way beyond who they were seeking, like the prodigal son just seeking and going home to a possible better master to provide some kind of a life and not expecting to be made a son.

Men do not seek God.. He seeks and saves His own ...

The unbeliever selfishly desires relief from his burden of sin and the situation he personally has gotten into (the pigsty of this life). The unbeliever is not “seeking” to be a child of God, but is willing to accept God’s charity. God is the one seeking to shower the nonbeliever with unbelievable gifts if the unbeliever would just be willing to accept those gifts as they are being given to him (as pure charity).

We come ,not forced but drawn sweetly by His grace ....

God’s grace is sufficient to draw all people just as the huge banquet was sufficient to draw all to it, but like in Christ’s parables some refused to go.

I once was dead... but now I live ...

The being made “alive” comes at the banquet and not before.

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe God is fair/just.

All mature adults have an equal ability at some point in their life.

The Bible does not deal with those that are mentally challenged.

Would that not be fair/just?
.

If God was FAIR.. and JUST ...no one would be saved

It is so sad that Gods grace is so weak , and His will so ineffective that men can ignore it

Ya just have to wonder who is God here don't ya ?

Do you really believe the man in the jungles of Africa or the indigenous people in Australia will have the CHOICE?

Can they be saved ?

Your salvation doctrine make faith a work... no different than the RC works based salvation

 

[bling]

If God was FAIR.. and JUST ...no one would be saved

Sorry God is repeatedly described as being just as an example: Ro. 9: 14 “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!’ Just is defined in scripture by many words and examples of both just and unjust rulers. Christ is our example of treating people fairly and just.

The prodigal son that returned home, “deserved” to be beaten and thrown out. But do we agree the prodigal son was treated fairly and justly by an all Loving Father? Fairness and justice has to do with consistency (treating people in similar situations “equally”, but does not have to be exactly the same way). The older son in the prodigal son story received the same fairness and justice, with unconditional Love from the father, but it was still up to the older son to join the party (the kingdom) or not join the party, so He had a choice. The young son’s choice was to turn to the father or not turn to the father and if he chooses not to turn to the father he would have starved to death feeding pigs, yet the father would still be just and fair to the young son.

God is fair and just because God is offering to all mature adults salvation in the form of forgiveness (grace/mercy/Love/charity), but it is their choice.

Everyone’s past actions deserve to be severely tortured and killed for our war crimes against our enemy “God” even if we surrender to God, but God is our Loving Father and treats us as His children fairly and justly.

It is so sad that Gods grace is so weak , and His will so ineffective that men can ignore it

Ya just have to wonder who is God here don't ya ?

God’s grace and Love is plenty strong enough to save everyone and His will (desire) is that all would be saved, but God is not going to force His Love on people that have repeatedly chosen to reject his Love and thus would be unhappy in heaven (where there is only Godly type Love).

Do you believe God Love is so weak, yet with his power He could easily save everyone and chose to save only a few for no logical explainable reason?

Do you really believe the man in the jungles of Africa or the indigenous people in Australia will have the CHOICE?

Can they be saved ?

The only way I see God being fair and just, to those that never have the opportunity to accept Christ, is with His pure Loving justice, judging the hearts of these people. God knows what they have of their own free will chosen with the choices God did give them and can judge them. And there could be a large number that never reach adult maturity (have been mentally handicapped by their environment).

Your salvation doctrine make faith a work... no different than the RC works based salvation

Faith is not a work. What great "work" did the prodigal son do to deserve what He got from the Father? That is the same way my understanding of salvation works.

 

[EmSw]

If God was FAIR.. and JUST ...no one would be saved

What kind of statement is this? Have you not read Ezekiel 18 to see what is fair about God?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?

So I ask, if God says a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to the abominations of the wicked, and he shall die because of them, is that fair to you? Or will you say, the way of the Lord is not fair?

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.

Again I ask, if God says a wicked man, who turns away from his wickedness he committed and does what is lawful and right, he will live, is that fair to you? Or will you say, the Lord is not fair?

It is because the Lord is fair, judging according to man's ways and deeds, man will be saved and live, if he does what is lawful and right.

It is so sad that Gods grace is so weak , and His will so ineffective that men can ignore it

I just quoted His will from Ezekiel; I wonder how many here have, or will ignore it.

Ya just have to wonder who is God here don't ya ?

No need for anyone to wonder, I just gave God's very truth; it is those who ignore it, who make themselves god of their lives.

Do you really believe the man in the jungles of Africa or the indigenous people in Australia will have the CHOICE?

Who doesn't have the choice of doing right or wrong?

Can they be saved ?

According to Ezekiel, they can. Or do you propose another that Ezekiel isn't for everyone?

Your salvation doctrine make faith a work... no different than the RC works based salvation

Perhaps you should read Ezekiel again. You, like everyone else, has the choice to believe or not.

 

[rnmomof7]

What kind of statement is this? Have you not read Ezekiel 18 to see what is fair about God?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?

So I ask, if God says a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to the abominations of the wicked, and he shall die because of them, is that fair to you? Or will you say, the way of the Lord is not fair?

27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.

Again I ask, if God says a wicked man, who turns away from his wickedness he committed and does what is lawful and right, he will live, is that fair to you? Or will you say, the Lord is not fair?

It is because the Lord is fair, judging according to man's ways and deeds, man will be saved and live, if he does what is lawful and right.



I just quoted His will from Ezekiel; I wonder how many here have, or will ignore it.



No need for anyone to wonder, I just gave God's very truth; it is those who ignore it, who make themselves god of their lives.



Who doesn't have the choice of doing right or wrong?



According to Ezekiel, they can. Or do you propose another that Ezekiel isn't for everyone?



Perhaps you should read Ezekiel again. You, like everyone else, has the choice to believe or not.

Quote me the NEW COVENANT

 

[rnmomof7]

Sorry God is repeatedly described as being just as an example: Ro. 9: 14 “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!’ Just is defined in scripture by many words and examples of both just and unjust rulers. Christ is our example of treating people fairly and just.

The prodigal son that returned home, “deserved” to be beaten and thrown out. But do we agree the prodigal son was treated fairly and justly by an all Loving Father? Fairness and justice has to do with consistency (treating people in similar situations “equally”, but does not have to be exactly the same way). The older son in the prodigal son story received the same fairness and justice, with unconditional Love from the father, but it was still up to the older son to join the party (the kingdom) or not join the party, so He had a choice. The young son’s choice was to turn to the father or not turn to the father and if he chooses not to turn to the father he would have starved to death feeding pigs, yet the father would still be just and fair to the young son.

God is fair and just because God is offering to all mature adults salvation in the form of forgiveness (grace/mercy/Love/charity), but it is their choice.

Everyone’s past actions deserve to be severely tortured and killed for our war crimes against our enemy “God” even if we surrender to God, but God is our Loving Father and treats us as His children fairly and justly.




God’s grace and Love is plenty strong enough to save everyone and His will (desire) is that all would be saved, but God is not going to force His Love on people that have repeatedly chosen to reject his Love and thus would be unhappy in heaven (where there is only Godly type Love).

Do you believe God Love is so weak, yet with his power He could easily save everyone and chose to save only a few for no logical explainable reason?



The only way I see God being fair and just, to those that never have the opportunity to accept Christ, is with His pure Loving justice, judging the hearts of these people. God knows what they have of their own free will chosen with the choices God did give them and can judge them. And there could be a large number that never reach adult maturity (have been mentally handicapped by their environment).


Faith is not a work. What great "work" did the prodigal son do to deserve what He got from the Father? That is the same way my understanding of salvation works.

FAIR is giving what one deserves...what they have earned ... that is FAIR...

There is NOT ONE PERSON that deserves or has EARNED salvation


That is why we need GRACE AND MERCY

Grace... giving one what they do not deserve ..... Mercy NOT giving one what they deserve


I fall on my face before A God that has thrown away "fairness " and given me His Grace and His Mercy


BTW that is what the prodigal son got..... grace and mercy

 

[EmSw]

Quote me the NEW COVENANT

John 1:1 -
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Since the Word was in the beginning, the Word in Ezekiel is Jesus Himself.
Is there not Truth in the Old Testament?
Is there not Life in the Old Testament?
Did God Who changes not, decide to change in the New Testament?
What is it in the Old Testament which conflicts with your beliefs?
Am I not to trust the Old Testament?
Are you one who thinks God isn't fair with His Truth in the Old Testament?

 

[rnmomof7]

John 1:1 -
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Since the Word was in the beginning, the Word in Ezekiel is Jesus Himself.
Is there not Truth in the Old Testament?
Is there not Life in the Old Testament?
Did God Who changes not, decide to change in the New Testament?
What is it in the Old Testament which conflicts with your beliefs?
Am I not to trust the Old Testament?
Are you one who thinks God isn't fair with His Truth in the Old Testament?

The Old Covenant was Gods covenant with Israel ..it prefigured Christ and was fully fulfilled in Christ .We (the church) live under the New Covenant not the Old Covenant ...


Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.