Why did God create us broken?

[elman]

I was just trying to understand this:

"If God made us perfect then that would destroy the universe."

It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

(ps we will all be dead before the end of the universe!)

I don't understand it either. I believe God does make us perfect and we chose imperfection if we live long enough.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I don't understand it either. I believe God does make us perfect and we chose imperfection if we live long enough.

God made Adam & Eve innocent, not perfect. But someday maybe.

 

[elman]

God made Adam & Eve innocent, not perfect. But someday maybe.

I disagree. Innocent is being perfect as God is perfect. Perfect is without flaws--So is innocence.

 

[elopez]

What exactly is the loving reason behind God creating humans as sinners, tempted by the exact things he forbids? Why would he make a tree in a garden, just to forbid eating from it.

If you're referring to God presently creating humans that assumption is obviously false. We do not witness that happening. If you're referring to God 'creating' the first humans as sinners, then that is also a false assumption as Adam and Eve were ignorant of sin altogether. It is only until they ate they fruit that they were sinners which was after God 'created' them. Humans are sinners because they want to be, not on account of God.

Whilst on the subject, why is the snake considered to be Satan? It does not say so in the Bible, it merely says a talking snake that I assume must have had legs before God removed them...

I think the serpent is to be considered Satan as Satan is mentioned to be a serpent in Revelations. One verse even describes him as that "serpent of old." So the Bible may not directly say Satan was the snake in the garden, but it does imply it heavily. One theory I've heard is that Satan 'possessed' the snake.

But I do not want quotes from the Bible for my first question, because God is timeless and knows exactly what will happen...so therefore planned for humans to be sinners.

Thanks

You don't want Scripture but you're asking a question that pertains completely to the Bible. That's just a little mendacious I think. Either way I didn't really quote from the Bible and provided an answer to your question.

Also, knowing something does not mean to plan something.

 

[oi_antz]

Also, knowing something does not mean to plan something.

In God's case I posit it does. His wisdom can be difficult to understand until the fruit is mature, but in the end it is perfectly effective.

Think about this Curious Atheist, if there is one lesson to learn from the story of Adam and Eve is that the human just cannot know something by simply being told. A child is told that the stove is hot, but not until it burns a hand is that realized. Same with Adam and Eve. I expect that when we awake to be with God, He will have a simple question for us: If I put you in that garden, are you going to eat the fruit from that tree? After enduring a life in this fallen world, do you really think everyone will be so foolish? Yet Adam and Eve were that foolish! Notice that the effect of taking the forbidden fruit was the act of dethroning God. They desired to be as wise as God. Imagine if heaven was full of people with that attitude! No way, nope. In Christianity Jesus is King and no-one who enters through the sheepfold is going to dethrone Him. Life is a big lesson learned well.

 

[drich0150]

What exactly is the loving reason behind God creating humans as sinners, tempted by the exact things he forbids?

So that we may have a true choice. In order for that to happen we must have viable options (What is in the Expressed will of God and that which is not.) With true choice there also must be consequence. Which is really what this whole "Free will" things is all about. To be able to chose where we wish to spend eternity.

Why would he make a tree in a garden, just to forbid eating from it.

The tree in the garden points to the direction God gave man from the beginning.

Whilst on the subject, why is the snake considered to be Satan? It does not say so in the Bible, it merely says a talking snake that I assume must have had legs before God removed them...

Because He deceived Eve. Satan= Father of Deception

But I do not want quotes from the Bible for my first question, because God is timeless and knows exactly what will happen...so therefore planned for humans to be sinners.

Yes now finish your thought... Which means He also planned for the redemption of Sin.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I disagree. Innocent is being perfect as God is perfect. Perfect is without flaws--So is innocence.

Perfect means choosing to do things perfectly.

 

[bling]

Sorry my last post replied to this too. I thought Adam & Eve were created perfect, in the image of God? Yet they were still easily convinced by a talking snake to do the one thing God didn't want. I just don't understand why the desire to sin is necessary for us to 'achieve our earthly objective'. You say that all tragedies have a purpose, is this just wishful thinking or do the millions of babies born with AIDs serve God in some way? If millions of people had to suffer for myself to be loved, I wouldn't be able to handle the shame even if I was the reason they had life to begin with.

It is not that tragedies “serve God in some way”, God hates that they have to exist. God has to quench His own desires to provide willing humans with the best place to fulfill their objective.

We all know of lots of people that have suffered and died, but the one greatest tragedy was the totally innocent Christ having to suffer and die (we can never know how painful this was because Christ (as deity) took on sin which is in many ways impossible). Even harder to imagine is what the Father of Jesus (like any Father) went through by allow Christ to go to the cross. God knows our suffering.

Another thing to keep in mind while thinking about all the innocent people that suffer and die

Luke 16: 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


Lazarus got rewarded for his suffering while on earth. Lazarus spent his life providing the best opportunity possible for the rich man to experience Godly type Love (through showing it himself toward Lazarus). What is the real tragedy in that story?


Man’s object while here on earth is to obtain and grow Godly type Love, so man can fulfill the mission statement of “Loving God and secondly others with all His heart, soul, mind, and energy.”

This is the whole reason man spends time on earth, since this Godly type Love cannot instinctively be placed in humans (that is a robotic love) and God cannot force us to Love (like God holding a shotgun at our wedding).

The easiest and only initial way for humans to obtain Godly type Love is to just accept it as a free undeserving and unconditional gift from God. Unfortunately that does make the gift pure Charity and since it cannot be forced on humans it has to be humbly accepted as pure charity. We all know how difficult it is for humans to accept pure charity from givers making a sacrifice to give the gift.

To help us overcome our “pride” enough to accept God’s charity (Love/grace/mercy) we have to sin, be burden by our sin, and thus be willing to humble ourselves enough to trust a benevolent Creator to forgive us (that is one form of Godly type Love). God readily forgives Luke 15: 11-32.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

What exactly is the loving reason behind God creating humans as sinners, tempted by the exact things he forbids? Why would he make a tree in a garden, just to forbid eating from it.

Love must be something made by choice; forced love is not real love. So, God had to make us free to either choose him or not choose him. He had to make us free actors in order for love to exist properly. Because of this, he had to set up a universe where there was the possibility to choose something besides him. Asking him to do otherwise is like asking him to make a round square.

How could he have us choose to love him without also presenting us with an alternative?

 

[JoeyArnold]

Love must something made by choice.

Perfection cannot be genetically engineered into humanity by God.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Love must be something made by choice; forced love is not real love. So, God had to make us free to either choose him or not choose him. He had to make us free actors in order for love to exist properly. Because of this, he had to set up a universe where there was the possibility to choose something besides him. Asking him to do otherwise is like asking him to make a round square.

How could he have us choose to love him without also presenting us with an alternative?

But what is the alternative to loving God? An eternity of torture? That doesn't sound like a choice to me, it is like someone holding a gun to your head and saying 'give me all your money', technically you have a choice but I wouldn't then argue the gun holder is giving it through love. Or by giving the money you chose to so it's OK.
If there really is a fine line in life between one decision leading to hell, surely as a Christian you do everything you can to ensure you and as many people as possible make the correct choice. I would imagine you wish you could stop everyone being evil, if you had this power the world would be a better place. It is a shame God doesn't seem very Christian.

 

[bling]

But what is the alternative to loving God? An eternity of torture? That doesn't sound like a choice to me, it is like someone holding a gun to your head and saying 'give me all your money', technically you have a choice but I wouldn't then argue the gun holder is giving it through love. Or by giving the money you chose to so it's OK.
If there really is a fine line in life between one decision leading to hell, surely as a Christian you do everything you can to ensure you and as many people as possible make the correct choice. I would imagine you wish you could stop everyone being evil, if you had this power the world would be a better place. It is a shame God doesn't seem very Christian.

Hell is not the perceived alternative, because you have to believe in the Christian God to believe in a hell. The nonbeliever does not “believe” in hell.

The likely alternative to humbly accepting God’s help (charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness/Love) is the perceived pleasures of sinning for at least a season.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Curious Atheist. God created us Good, and we were, until temptation reared its ugly head. ( Adam and Eve are our proto-types) The Serpent was the tempter. God knew that we would succumb to temptation, and until then we were with God our Heavely Father. God had told Adam and Eve Not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, but they disobeyed and paid the price, and were banished to Earth.
Instead of loving God, they, and all who came after, moved farther and farther away from God. In time Jesus came, and told us about our Heavenly Father, who loves us, and wants us back again. But Mankind would have to change, to be " Reborn," to learn to love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ALSO: Love our neighbour, ( fellow-men and fellow-women) AS WE LOVE OURSELVES.
Jesus told a Lawyer in St.Matthew: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. The second is: " Love your neighbour as yourself." Then Jesus pointed out the importance of those two Commandments: " On them hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving children/sons and daughters. We are on Earth to learn to become as God wants to be: Loving freely and selflessly, no conditions tagged on. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us, in fact Jesus is The Way back to our Heavenly Father, who made us in His image. Earth is our School to learn to become as God wanted us from the very beginning.
Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit inside us, will help, also. Jesus told us to" Ask and ye will receive," and then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. ( our neighbour) The Bible, God`s Word to Man, will tell you more in detail. I say this with love, Atheist. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[elman]

Perfect means choosing to do things perfectly.

At the beginning Adam and Eve were chosing to do things perfectly.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Hell is not the perceived alternative, because you have to believe in the Christian God to believe in a hell. The nonbeliever does not “believe” in hell.

The likely alternative to humbly accepting God’s help (charity/mercy/grace/forgiveness/Love) is the perceived pleasures of sinning for at least a season.

Yes, but if you don't believe in God to begin with then you are destined for hell, so since to believe you have to rely on faith then that is quite a mean trick. Hence, no real choice in the way I described earlier. If you do believe in God and Hell, then surely there is quite a lot of fear involved in not loving God in just the right way, in just the right amount to ensure you have sucked up enough to avoid endless torture? Better go and love everyone because you were told to, not because you want to to make sure Jesus loves you! This reminds me of a different paradox, since if someone had never heard about Jesus then apparently they are not held responsible. So if everyone stopped teaching the Bible then everyone could be saved, funny that.

Sorry but I just wish people were responsible for their own actions...Stop blaming Satan for tempting you and take control of yourself. (not aimed at yourself)

 

[Curious Atheist]

Dear Curious Atheist. God created us Good, and we were, until temptation reared its ugly head. ( Adam and Eve are our proto-types) The Serpent was the tempter. God knew that we would succumb to temptation, and until then we were with God our Heavely Father. God had told Adam and Eve Not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, but they disobeyed and paid the price, and were banished to Earth.
Instead of loving God, they, and all who came after, moved farther and farther away from God. In time Jesus came, and told us about our Heavenly Father, who loves us, and wants us back again. But Mankind would have to change, to be " Reborn," to learn to love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ALSO: Love our neighbour, ( fellow-men and fellow-women) AS WE LOVE OURSELVES.
Jesus told a Lawyer in St.Matthew: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. The second is: " Love your neighbour as yourself." Then Jesus pointed out the importance of those two Commandments: " On them hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving children/sons and daughters. We are on Earth to learn to become as God wants to be: Loving freely and selflessly, no conditions tagged on. Jesus our Saviour will help and guide us, in fact Jesus is The Way back to our Heavenly Father, who made us in His image. Earth is our School to learn to become as God wanted us from the very beginning.
Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit inside us, will help, also. Jesus told us to" Ask and ye will receive," and then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. ( our neighbour) The Bible, God`s Word to Man, will tell you more in detail. I say this with love, Atheist. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

My question was though, if God knew Eve would be tempted then what exactly was the point in pretending they could ive in the garden? It just seems terribly dishonest to create a human that wants to be like God, then punish them for it a moment later in full knowledge it would happen.

 

[elman]

My question was though, if God knew Eve would be tempted then what exactly was the point in pretending they could ive in the garden? It just seems terribly dishonest to create a human that wants to be like God, then punish them for it a moment later in full knowledge it would happen.

I don't think even in the story Adam and Eve were punished for wanting to be like God. They were punished for being unloving to one who had given them everything by failing to obey His instructions. Your question is really why would God give us the ability to be unloving? I think the answer is because that is the only way God could give us the ability to be loving.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I don't think even in the story Adam and Eve were punished for wanting to be like God. They were punished for being unloving to one who had given them everything by failing to obey His instructions. Your question is really why would God give us the ability to be unloving? I think the answer is because that is the only way God could give us the ability to be loving.

You are confusing love with submission. "If you really loved me you would make my dinner, clean the house and do the dishes for me, everyday or I will get angry and murder you"

God sounds like an abusive husband now I have said it like that...

 

[elman]

You are confusing love with submission. "If you really loved me you would make my dinner, clean the house and do the dishes for me, everyday or I will get angry and murder you"

God sounds like an abusive husband now I have said it like that...

No I am not confusing love with submission. Love is responding to someone else's love for you by being kind to them.

 

[Believe the Impossible]

So that we would seek Him, use our own suffering to comfort others going through the same thing and to allow us to see how truly in need of Him we are.