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Why did God create Lucifer with the pride or whatever it was that made him rebel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by marc32123, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Optimax

    Optimax Senior Veteran

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    The devil did have access again to heaven after Adam fell.

    He gained that authority from Adam.
     
  2. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran Supporter

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    I see many examples in scripture support the idea that man has free will with his actions but not the reactions of his actions. Man actions is according to his free will but the reactions of those actions are predestined by God.
    Thus Satan was free to act against God but God is in full control of the reactions which He uses to fulfill His purpose. The book of
    Esther you clearly see the free will of man in Mordecai, Esther and Haman but God predestined the ending. As Mordecai pointed out to Esther If she wouldn't act God would send someone else.
    I do believe Paul replaced Judas. Both were strongly against Jesus doing their own thing but Judas didn't accept Jesus when he kissed him in betrayal and Jesus called him friend.
    I also believe Job was a testimony against Satan as he was bless just like Job but turn his back against God in prosperity. The acts of Job will help condemn Satan on the day of judgement.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  3. Rev Randy

    Rev Randy Sometimes I pretend to be normal

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    Huh?
     
  4. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Lucifer is not the name of any Satan, and the only man/Adam person who has attempted to ascend into heaven is Nimrod & Co, at the tower.

    The king of Babylon is an Assyrian, a descendant of Nimrod and of Adam, and bears the curse of his ancestor Nimrod, and bears the curse of the one Adam spirit [death as a son of God and corruption of the flesh] until the controversy is settled [for us, it is settled at the Cross if we repent and believe] as we all bear the generational curses because of the particular sins of our father's -just as the Scripture says.

    and that is just like the Pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel's time, who was under the generational curse of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, who said -under the influence of the dragon- to Moses, "Who is YHWH?. My River is my own and I have made it for myself".

    The Pharaoh of the Exodus said that, many centuries before God spoke to the Pharaoh at the time of Ezekiel.
    For the reason of generational curses, Daniel repented of the sins of his own fathers as if they were his own, when it was time to return to Israel, just as Moses said to do in Leviticus -our pattern for repentance of the sins of our fathers and to be cleansed of generational curses is in that:

    The above is the principle of curses. Because of the Atonement, we can be free of the curses on us by being born in Adam, and free from those on us by being generationally cursed by the specific sins of our fathers -but we need to repent and confess the sins of our fathers to have the cleansing of the blood.


    Anyway: in the passage you bring up, there is no way that satan was ever a cherub, he is not named lucifer, nor is he cast out of heaven -he is there still; nor have the third of the angels been cast out of heaven to earth -that comes in the tribulation.
    Satan is many names in the Word, but never a holy angel, never anything other than the evil spirit in heaven and the Prince of Darkness [the Prince of the Lake of Fire]; but he can shapeshift, and pretend to be an angel of Light to deceive the gullible.




    Cherubs have the face of an ox/cherub face, lion, Adam, and eagle. They have hooves like calves and hands like an Adam under their wings. Satan is called a twisted serpent, a dragon, Leviathan, but never lucifer, never a light bearer and never, ever, a holy angel!

    God rebukes and mocks an Adam person, and holds him guilty for Adam's sin as an Adam person, and for Nimrod's sin af attempting to exalt his throne above the angels of God, as a descendant of Nimrod.

    -I used to think that particular Pharaoh of the Exodus was referring to the Nile, as a river made from dams? -but long since, I learned that there was a "Suez" Canal before there was a modern Suez Canal -and that is the "River" Pharaoh made "for himself" -a great wonder:)
     
  5. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Adam did not have access to heaven ever. Satan didn't fall twice, he only fell once, and that--as Revelation 12 shows--was in the church age.

    The Isaiah passage is prophesy not history.

    Up until Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, Satan had kept his place. The wilderness temptation represented his first actual rebellion against God, the first time he tried to be like the Most High--which only became feasible when the Son became incarnate.
     
  6. Rev Randy

    Rev Randy Sometimes I pretend to be normal

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    I'm still attempting to understand the authority aspect.:confused:
     
  7. Nanopants

    Nanopants Guest

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be like and to follow Christ, since He is the way, the truth and the life. Just a friendly reminder.
     
  8. Optimax

    Optimax Senior Veteran

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    Where did I say that Adam had access to heaven?
     
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Which authority aspect?

    Adam's dominion was only over creation. Whatever authority Satan could steal from Adam could extend no more than that which Adam had been given by God.

    Satan claimed to have authority over earthly nations--that is, the political-economic systems, not the planet itself--and Jesus did not dispute that. It's not a great thing to argue from silence, but it's possible Satan did have authority over that which he claimed.

    If you haven't yet, try getting a copy of Anne Rice's "Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana." Her narrative of Jesus' wilderness temptation is riveting. The woman is an excellent novelist.
     
  10. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Adam had no access to heaven.

    How could Satan gain authority from Adam that Adam did not have?
     
  11. Rev Randy

    Rev Randy Sometimes I pretend to be normal

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    The aspect optimax spoke of.
     
  12. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Eden is in the heavenly realm of earth.

    Paradise, the Garden of God, is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is.
    Paradise is in Eden.
    Paradise is in the third heaven.
    Eden is in the third heaven.

    Adam was taken and set in Paradise, the Garden of God, where the Tree of Life is in the midst.

    Eden is a Mountain.
    It is the Mountain of God.

    Adam was cast down from the third heaven to earth below.

    The heavens were stretched out from earth on day 2 of creation week, and stretched out between the divided waters of creation.
    Half the waters of creation are above the stretched out heavens, and half on earth beneath.


    Everything I wrote above is in the Word of God.
     
  13. Rev Randy

    Rev Randy Sometimes I pretend to be normal

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    Well...that's enough for me. Did I wander into unorthodox theology. Kinda thought I was avoiding that place.
     
  14. Messy

    Messy Well-Known Member

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    His rewards? Being punished in the lake of fire for all eternity, nice reward.
    So God created an evil spirit. You have to be evil yourself to even think about creating something like that. God is not yin yang. He's Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. How can Light create darkness or even invent it?
     
  15. HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

    HIM_In_Me_In_HIM Angel Of YHVH

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    ...."anything goes" in general heresy, till the mod squad shows up.

    Anything Goes Cole Porter With lyrics wmv - YouTube

    Please take note of the lyrics and consider well if it doesn't apply generally/specifically to both the "church age" we're in as well as the secular world. (or perhaps your own "little-world" as well? Selah?!)
     
  16. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. -- Genesis 1



    Notice that darkness existed.

    Light is a thing, a created thing--made up of protons. Darkness is the absence of light--it needs no creation, it is simply the absence of light.

    God is spiritual light, and spiritual darkness is the absence of God.
     
  17. HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

    HIM_In_Me_In_HIM Angel Of YHVH

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    oh how much (ahem...) 'WE' all have to learn from H>S> revelation(s) in our lives.
    In this servant-sons experience, there seems to be many (too many) children "who die for lack of knowledge." H>S> keeps this son, honest/humble (re: 'knowledge') by always reminding him of the "mirror-light-effect" (broken glass at the laver-bottom..."now we see thru the glass darkly" {<-- hint hint 4 any 'mature'} of the laver {at the foreshadowing temple as it pertains to our "temple"} as well as the application of the laver's water {the cleansing water of the Word, washing us 'clean'}.)
    And even so....what this servant son "thinks" he understands is always (somewhat) subject to "change" (as in, "go deeper" son/daughter) despite Christian "folks" who love to whip out the "The LORD does not change" scriptures that "prove" their POV (or so they think/believe).

    Many many yrs ago, this servant son "got torched" in spiritual warfare re: "Lucifer addition" to the OT on (Isa 14:12; by Jerome, look it up if u are Real Christian, not lazy, and care not to 'inflict harm' on others, be they "believers" or "un-b's") as there was a connection to same word in Peter 2:19 (daystar, Lucifer, depending on bible version u read) thereby connecting ha'satan/Lucifer to our lovely messiah, Jesus Christ.

    This servant son cannot begin to describe for u the mental & yes, physical pain/anguish he went thru for weeks that seemed like yrs, all tks to 1. someone elses "error"; 2. his own "hunger" for truth, digging for it, but "falling for" ...3. the devils "trick(s)" re: attacking u by either a.) questioning/fouling up your "identity in Jesus" or ...b.) questioning/fouling up Jesus' wholesome/perfect/begotten "identity" and YOUR connection to Him, as it were. (basically, screwed both ways, u dig?)
    All leading to a "wilderness period" (cliché or reality-experience o' reader?) that one soberly consider always, of a continual/seasonal nature, "this life" perhaps?

    Perhaps some here have heard/read the cliché "the devil can quote scripture too"? Too many have no idea how well, how much, how often, this is true. Martin Luther learned how much, when he wrote the words "I am no beast..." Many a well trained/"seasoned" pastor, knows of what this son, speaks/writes. Yet too many do not.

    H>S> has "prompted" this son to share his (short version, believe that!) story/experience with all here for the purposes of:
    - be careful/sober/loving in what u say/write for reasons u already "know" or shall come to "know," (with the emphasis on loving, but to whom loving ultimately?...selah?!) all via H>S> power/revelation.
    - do not be quick to dismiss, disregard what others lovingly write/share with u, as it may benefit u (& your circles of influence) immediately or later on in 'your' journey/learning.
    - become totally dependent upon H>S> guidance/teaching/leading in your speaking/writings; NOT what u think/believe; <--for this/that is one of many forms of blah, blah, blah, blasphemy (!) visa vie baa, ba, (baal/ba'al?) Babylon (!) (<--"has fallen, is fallen" selah?!)
    - u shall be known by your "fruit," your word(s), or lack of, as case may be. H>S> speaks, teaches, exalts, bears witness to Jesus. H>S> "convicts" which is far different that "condemns." H>S> is "rooting it (condemns/condemnation & all that "sniffs" of it) out" of this servant son's vocab. Let us all pray/ask for this "blessing."


    So wrapping this all up, & zoning in again on OP's orig "Q" (see above title if forgotten) from what H>S> has prompted this servant son to write:
    There is no "Lucifer" as added to OT; it DOES matter for it calls into question the honest, perfect, accuracy of the bible, leaving "doubts" to those who discover [any] error &/via the acceptance by "Christians" who pooh-pooh it when shown it; as well as the dangerous, pseudo "connection" aforementioned (to Jesus, see above); as well as leading to imaginary tales/stories, books, movies (!) that flow from this "error," some of which have appeared here on CF thread(s); which in turn leads to these "rules:"
    [For those who now read all this posts' words are no longer "ignorant" but "responsible" for the 'knowledge.']

    1. keep the focus (<--important u "get this pt" please-->) on JESUS! (as much as humanly possible with H>S> power-help, of course)
    [NOT...ha'satan dictating focus on/to you/us (?) in your/our life/mind] Paul alluded to this in his epistles in re: to Jesus' gospel reigning over any disputes/fairy tales via (ahem..) "casting down of imaginations" etc.

    2. In discussing "pride" or the wiley ways of our "adversary" be it from within or without.....
    Our lives' mission/battle/statement/energies/etc., should be CENTERED WITHIN OUR focus only/always ON JESUS dominating it ALL as He alone/best/perfectly displayed OUR ABBA in HIS ["...fullness in GOD"] fullness during His incarnation-time as a human-being, not satan.
    FOCUS on Jesus. Focus on JESUS! (not satan, not yourself, etc.) Can't remember too many rules? Remember rule #1 then.

    3. And/Or....think you're losing your problem/battle with the "enemy?" Could be u need to review rule #2.
    Still no solution/victory? Go back (frame it, wallpaper it, do what u have to do) to rule #1, then.


    ***Smith Wigglesworth once told of waking one time and seeing satan at the foot of his bed. His (Smiths') response? "oh its you again." and he turned over in bed & went back to sleep. (SELAH !!)***


    And if words don't move u, let worship music do so:
    "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" By Michael W. Smith - YouTube

    Yeshua's Shalom upon u, whosoever/wherever u are! :prayer:
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2013
  18. ChristsSoldier115

    ChristsSoldier115 Mabaho na Kuya

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    If we're going this questions route, why did God let Noah survive the flood if he knew man was going to go back to his wicked ways like 10 generations later?
    Either God doesn't have omniscience or the fact we DON'T have omniscience so we can't grasp His logic or ever understand it. I go with the latter.
     
  19. Optimax

    Optimax Senior Veteran

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    Again you are reading something I did say.

    What I said was that Adam had authority.

    He was given authority by God.

    Notice that God gave authority over the listed things in verse 26.

    Gen 1:26
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. KJV

    Notice that God gave dominion (authority) to Adam over all the earth.

    Satan gained the authority over the kingdoms of the earth from Adam.
     
  20. Messy

    Messy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, because he fell and took the old world in his fall.
    The Bible, Genesis & Geology
    I don't believe that God, who is Light created the heavens and earth in the evening of day one when everything was dark. Between Genesis 1 verse 1 and 2 can be billions of years and they found evidence for that in the ground.
     
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