Why did God choose man as the messenger for his word?
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Quite simply I think that you come across as the type of person who requires a detailed study before you could make a decision one way or the other. Perhaps you may have heard some classic examples of these types of people like the lawyer John Warwick Montgomery, or the archaeologist William Ramsay, etc. William Ramsay said that after years of investigation he has come to believe that Luke is a historian of the 1st rank...now for a lot of Christians that means a lot, but for other people it means very little. Some people simply need their own scale of measurement, period. Meaning that their mentality is 'Until I personally comprehend WHY Luke is a 1st rank historian I can absolutely care less who 'Says' that he is!' I'm not claiming that the Christians who are willing to take Ramsay's word for it are lazy, or gullible. The reasons that they are not is because the large majority of Christians only need a little bit of intellectual nudging because it is a fact that there are some very powerful experiences that go on inside of a Christian (a God experience if you will) that has way more weight to them than technical reasoning. But having said that that does not cut it for a minority group of people who come to be Christians.
I simply don't think that there is a short cut for some people. Sometimes it makes me shake my head at how many things William Lane Craig knows, and I listened to so many of his debates (and was still undecided for years). One day I realized that I was going to remain in the 'Not sure' zone for life unless I did one of 2 things, dump the whole issue of the Bible altogether, or stop just listening to the surface level debates and dive into a much deeper study for a more informed decision.
This freaked me out for years. As much as people want to debate how CLEAR the truth of the Bible is IMO it can be ambiguous, one week the reasons that I believed the Bible was true would dominate me, the next week the reasons that made me think it was all just coincidence would dominate me. And back & forth I went for years. Angry! Screaming at God at times how annoying it is, that if he simply struck me with better proof I would be a full blown Christian!! But, I was no Christian at all, it was all just an academic curiosity to me. The idea of God, and the idea of the ultimate meaning of life just intrigued me for years intellectually. Finally, and this is the part where I think I am very unique, my bluff was called and I seemed to get answers that I was looking for for years and I found that I was convinced (the answers that bothered ME at least, everyone is different in what objections bother them).
Well, there were no fireworks...it was kind of just like a 'Huh' reaction. I laugh because I compare it to the Seinfeld episode where the doctor told George his fiance was dead and his reaction was just 'Huh.' It was really just that, a 'How about that I think it's true' reaction. But...i didn't like Christianity as it turned out. Now logically the next step was to BE a Christian and I actually became miserable for a long time. When I say that I was very unique I mean, who believes the Bible but hates it?? I really did simply hate the idea of it being true. This time period was when I realized that Christianity can be boiled down to one basic question 'Would you want to live in a world where Jesus is the king of that world, yes or no?' And I could honestly say that I didn't.
There is a famous saying that goes something like 'There is enough light for those who want to believe, and enough obscurity for those who don't want to believe.' Well I literally was living proof of why that is true (at least I think based on my experience), I was completely miserable that I had this new belief that it was true (yet I hated the belief, as I said it was all just academic for me). I DID NOT want to live in a world where Jesus was king, I'd rather keep drinking, keep my crude ways, and I by no means wanted God to be some focal meditation point of my life. So I do get the obscurity in one sense. I actually lived out the answer to why CLEARER proof that the Bible is true might not be given, because clearer evidence might cause millions to be totally miserable with that knowledge (like I was).
But having said all that, my time was spent almost entirely outside of the Bible. 95% of my focus was critical analysis on whether or not the Bible was true with little regard to actually reading it for the sake of reading it. My attitude was 'Yeah yeah I get it, Jesus is born, gathers his apostles, starts his ministry...crucified, etc. I know the basic frame work no need to re-read anything.' For the most part I enjoyed arguing with atheists lol. And when I did read the Bible it was always with an attitude of challenging doubt, stopping every other paragraph to say 'Yeah right!' Well it turned out that there was a strange phenomenon that would occur when I suspended my antagonistic attitude and just read the Bible in an attitude of acceptance. I became overwhelmed with weird feelings that it was true. This definitely went beyond a psychological mind over matter, this was unique, because there were definitely other books that I could read (that I didn't believe) with a suspended antagonistic attitude yet not have even close to the feeling I got when I read the Bible with the same attitude. But there was another unique feeling too, at times these unexplainable tweaks occurred inside me that effected my outlook on what I considered pleasurable and what I considered overrated. Meditating on Jesus, that which made me roll me eyes, actually started feeling like an intense natural high...whereas things like getting drunk still had an appeal, yet is would feel like much less of an urge than before. Things that were underrated to me started becoming overrated, and vise versa.
I always used to cringe at what I referred to as 'Bible thumper' phrases because I considered them to just be hot air, and one of those phrases that always annoyed me was 'Spiritually discerned.' Well I started realizing that the strange reactions and feeling tweaks inside me that were happening as I read the Bible often was this thing called spiritually discerned. Because I knew what 'Discerned' meant. And I knew that I was going into these reading sessions in a state of doubt (or indifference)...yet I was coming out of them in a state of increased belief?? Yet I knew that I was picking up no new information that I had not already known. This made zero intellectual sense to me, but strangely it was happening. I was reading gospels of which I already knew the details, and as I said before there were other books I could read that never had this effect on me. Another 'Annoying Bible thumper' term started to entire my mind...Daily Bread. Wow was this actually true that you need daily bread, and that the Bible could be actually be discerned in a different way than intellectual discernment?? Apparently so for me.
It was a weird revelation indeed. Perhaps I wasted years refusing to read the Bible openly and just focusing on intellectual discernment. Perhaps if I did both I'd of saved myself a lot of time. I didn't want to admit to another 'Thumper' phrase but I also started to realize the truth behind the verse 'Draw nearer to God and he will draw nearer to you.' Clearly I wasn't drawing nearer to God when I thought about God like a math equation, nor was I drawing nearer to him when I read the Bible with an attitude of 'Yeah right, whatever.' But going way back to the beginning, there were always these rare occasions in my life where I would very intensely pray to Jesus to have him open my eyes. I see a lot of people in these forums who seem like they opened a similar Pandora's Box as I did (by the way they post). I am absolutely convinced that I was a case of be careful what you wish for you might get it. I think I prayed Jesus into my life and afterwards I was never able to toss him aside with a total clear conscience ever again. There were indeed many many time I tossed him aside, and sooner or later I would get these strange impulses that something was missing. Well before ever going thru with any of those intense prayers those strange impulses never occurred in me. I really do think I prayed him into my life and was never able to go back.
So anyway, might wanna try to hit it from both ends, go deeper in your intellectual study, but also suspend your disbelief and read the Bible with an attitude of acceptance and see if you experience that feeling of spiritual discernment. And if you do good luck trying to explain it to people I've tried for years, it's totally an experience. I suppose it's like trying to explain to someone what it's like to skydive.
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It is of God's choosing. He chooses those He loves and who love Him to do it.
The things we do for Christ build us up spiritually as well. Much of what people look at a Christian to see if there is something evident in their lives that He has changed us. Hopefully, what people see is something they would like to have for themselves.
We also have the Bible, so it is not entirely people teaching other people. The Bible is the foundation of who we are in Christ.
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The details are that: the message presented in the bible has been written by men, who claim to have accurately recorded the message according to the stories told by the original witnesses. This in turn has been explained and interpreted by other men.
I realise that the claim is that the original message is from God. My concern is that I have no faith in the ability of mortal men to convey that message accurately and without bias. This is not to say they intentionally altered the message, it may have just been done unintentionally due to our human nature.
So when you say "the truth I know is in the bible", that is misleading. I know there are words in the bible but I have no way to verify their authenticity (or truth).
You said "Test what someone says. If it makes sense, and your conscience approves of it, then it is acceptable truth."
The level of testing is what determines "truth". If someone gives me some information, lets say: "the fishing is good at Shelly beach". That makes sense to me. If its a beach there should be a sea, and therefore fish. My conscience has no problem with it, in that there does not appear to be any malice intended in the comment. I will therefore accept what I am told.
However if I wish to determine if it is true, I will need to fish repeatedly at Shelly beach and at other beaches over an extended period of time, or gather similar data from fisherman. So the level of testing is crucial in determining "truth" beyond reasonable doubt.
I'm not sure why you wanted me to. The items are a little intangible. I did not say that error prone messengers would complicate those tests (yet), I was saying that I did not see how doing those tests would explain the use of error prone messengers.
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Indeed this remains my opinion, although other non human methods would probably be just as good.
Is that not a strange way to design the way it works?
Why can we no longer have direct communication?
The rest doesn't really explain why he chooses humans as his messengers, to record his word. How can we be sure there are not mistakes in the Bible, or crucial information left out by mistake?
Is it not risky to put faith in something that could be wrong?
Ummm, its been recorded by humans. We are notorious for our error prone ways. There may be a huge margin of error ... or not, we don't really know, do we?
But we (humans) also wrote the Bible. So yes, Christians do go about telling everyone they need a saviour and that is fair enough I suppose. But then you direct us to the man written Bible, and just because so many copies have been printed, does not necessarily mean the contents are accurate.
Is it not more important to convey the message accurately rather than choose people you love?
We don't "also" have the bible, we only have the bible. This is a book written by men. How can you rely on that 100% ? I agree that it is the foundation, and as its been made by biased, fallible, error prone men ...... Does that not concern you?
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Indeed I am, although the extent of the detail depends on how critical the decision is. For example, if I build a paper aeroplane, I do not require much study detail before launching it into the air. If however I build a boeing 747, I want much more detailed study before launching it with 200 people into the air.
Now the claims of religion are stratospheric, and so yes I desire a lot of detail. In fact, does I it not worry you that every follower of Christianity does not have that same view? Is there not a danger if they are all just accepting a message without checking its credibility?
Even if we accept that, he is still an imperfect man, who is relying on stories told by others before his time. Then how do we know that everything he wrote has been included in his chapter? What if some is missing?
Thank you for your well written and personal story. A most interesting and realistic perspective IMO.
I am glad it worked out for you, but I still struggle to understand the logic behind his whole process.
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mmksparbud
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We are human, they are not, we react to the powerful, brilliant, presence of angels the way we do--we react the same way when confronted with anything strange--beautiful or ugly.
The has already been explained.
It is all the more true to day, we are sinful. Even the Jews could not stand to even her His voice, they were afraid, Moses' face shined so brightly after just being in the presence of God that He had to wear a veil when standing before the Israelites. They asked Him to tell them what He said instead of hearing it for themselves as they afraid.
(Exo 33:20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo_34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Exo_34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
Exo_34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
(Exo 20:19) And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
Like I said, sin can not live in the presence of God anymore than a drop of water can remain on the surface of the sun. We are made lower than the angels, we can't even stand them in their full glory as they have been with God.
I already said, God has given us His instructions as we have been able to receive it--He does not force. He first spoke face to face with Adam and Eve, until they sinned--sin is the problem. Then it was audible, still they rejected that. He wrote the 10 commandments on stone with His own finger, still--we reject. He sent His Son, then He sent His Holy Sprit. It is the last resort. Now we must rely on faith from what has been given. It is our own sins fault. That tiny drop of water can't dictate to the sun how to handle it, the drop of water can survive the sun only when protected from it. It is what He can do for us in or present condition. Those who have the faith to follow His word, follow and will once again be face to face with Him. We may not like it, but it is the way it is for now.
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There is, and it's a profound question. Man is God's vessel for spreading the Message, because Man himself is the embodiment and proof of the message. The changed heart is the greatest miracle, because anyone who knows the human heart knows how impossible it is to turn it away from the elemental principles of this world. Despite all the flaws in the history of Christianity, and most especially in the headline-making politicized counterfeit of it, the testimony still stands of the power of Jesus down through the ages to comfort the afflicted, and give hope and purpose to the hurting and lost.
It makes perfect sense that this should be so. If you were looking for an exercise machine, you would want to hear from people who used it and found it effective. If you were interested in a certain model airplane, you would go out and talk to pilots who have flown it. When you buy something from Amazon, chances are you consult the customer reviews. It's the old "word of mouth" testimonial, and it's still the most powerful endorsement there is.
The alternative would have been for God to blast the message down with fanfare as He did at Sinai, with the mere mortals cowering in fear. That didn't turn out too well. Fear as a motivator last only as long as the fear itself. Jesus came to found His kingdom on love, not fear, and thus the dynamics of the Gospel are antithetical to the top-down approach of legalism.
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest
and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.
For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. -Heb 12:18-24
But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. -2Cor 3:14-18
and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.
For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. -Heb 12:18-24
But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. -2Cor 3:14-18
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One must look spiritually to see why Jesus chose man to spread His message.
Spiritually, He is sanctifying each one of His children to Himself. This then makes perfect sense because we learn by doing and it is clarified to us through our experience and the Holy Spirit as we live it.
Spiritually, He is sanctifying each one of His children to Himself. This then makes perfect sense because we learn by doing and it is clarified to us through our experience and the Holy Spirit as we live it.
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Try to always keep the cliche in mind 'Put up or shut up.' Anyone can tell a story, anyone can claim to be the messiah. There was one guy named Theudas who claimed that he was the messiah and he claimed to his followers that he was going to part the Jordan River (which was actually rare, claimed messiahs didn't usually claim supernatural abilities). Well the religious authorities caught up with him and beheaded him...he simply went down as a fraud (and it was known that he failed to part the Jordan). I can take you to a psyche ward today and show you a man who claims to be God. I may even be able to show you a 2nd patient at the psyche ward who wrote in his journal that the man is God and goes around the hospital telling people that he is God. But...suppose that you found out that half of the hospital's board of directors, along with a dozen nurses believed that he was God? Although you would probably still be unconvinced, the later example would certainly raise your curiosity more so then the first example.
The later example is the type of reporting that Luke was investigating. The stories about Jesus were flat out absurd, however his success strangely was equally absurd. Jesus' fate was the utter definition of complete failure. That he became the gold standard of success requires historical explanatory scope. You can definitely make a case that Luke was a man who believed in 'Put up or shut up.' Even if Luke was a die hard skeptic the Jesus puzzle was worth investigating. A lot of times if you listen to a resurrection debate you'll hear people arguing about the 'Apparent death theory' or 'The swoon theory', etc, and a lot of times a lay person will get frustrated and say 'This argument is so stupid they just made it all up!!' Well, the reason that the more academic non-Christian skeptic won't argue 'They just made it up' is because it's not that simple. There are things that do not add up that need more explanatory scope then just claiming that they just made it up.
What separated William Ramsay from most people was his wide knowledge of the culture & religion, down to the nitty gritty details. If you really know the mind of a 1st century Jew you would know that Jesus was like Donald Trump on steroids, and even that analogy falls short. Everything that you just simply 'Do not say' Jesus said...yet Jesus' 'Poll numbers' climbed. Things like Jesus claiming to forgive sins was a total violation of what a Jew had any right to claim, it was pure blasphemy. There were so many miracle claims intermixed into his ministry, how exactly do you fake feeding 5,000 people? How do you fake healing the lame and blind out in public? There are some shysters in this world but Jesus was not one of them, had Jesus not been supernatural he was far from a smooth shyster he was total idiot! His claims and statements were completely outlandish and WAY too far over the top...yet he succeed somehow (was he only mortal, or was he somehow backing his absurd claims up with something concrete?). And even going beyond the broad context of the story, the more you know the little details the clearer the picture becomes, and the more you appreciate the difficulties of Jesus' success. For instance Jesus was from Galilee, and people from Galilee had a stereotype working against them...people from Judea considered Galileans to be half breed low lifes, a good analogy would be a New Yorker stereotype against people from Alabama as dumb hicks.
But...even Jesus could not escape the wrath of people turning on him when he decided to completely contradict the entire definition of messiah. The cornerstone of the concept of messiah was a man who would rise up and overthrow the yoke of the oppressive enemy (Rome) and restore the Kingdom of David forever. The turning point, when people went from cheering Jesus to spitting in his face, occurred when he allowed himself to get arrested by the Roman authorities. And of course the ultimate dagger which would logically cement Jesus in as a fraud was his public execution. Going with my Trump analogy, as far as reputation goes the crucifixion would be the equivalent of Donald being caught on tape as the San Bernardino shooter. The crucifixion, and being the messiah were complete contradictions. It is a square circle. Every Jew knew that a claimed messiah who got himself killed was a fraud.
So these are the types of historical puzzles that people like Ramsay, and Montgomery think about as they research...and these types of details are the types of things that lead some to conclude, after lots of study, that the inconsistencies just run too deep, and they further conclude that the consistency of the supernatural Jesus thesis always seems to fit new data as it comes in...yet like clockwork the new data presents more inconsistencies with the mortal Jesus thesis.
As for Luke there is quite a bit of resources breaking down how thorough of a historical investigator he was. 'The Book Of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History' by Colin Hemer is a technical read on the subject. And an even more thorough read is a 5 volume set 'The Book Of Act In It's First Century Setting.' I agree with you that there could be missing pieces of information in the gospels. The first thing that an indifferent researcher of Christianity is to do is to NOT treat the books of the New Testament as if they are supposed to be books that fell from heaven. But to rather treat them as any other documents that we find from the ancient world, and to apply the testing procedures of the art of historiography towards them just as you would for any other document from the ancient world (to test it's probability of accuracy). Now, true the miracles will certainly throw a monkey wrench into a lot of people's ability to do an unbiased 'Test of accuracy' on the New Testament documents, but it must be done. You deal with the philosophical/religious implications of miracles separately but you first have to do a core historic analysis. I will sound like a broken record in here but once again I recommend the very dry but very thorough DVD course Defending The Resurrection by William Lane Craig;
https://apps.biola.edu/apologetics-.../item/defending-the-resurrection-of-jesus_DVD
Of course this isn't what you want to hear based on your posts, to claim that the most you can get in a data style investigation is limited to the strength of historical study was your complaint to begin with. Your complaint that truly there must be an even more accurate way? Based on the weight of it's importance! Well, welcome to my world, I've made this complaint 10,000 times. Strangely, and for whatever the reason it seems that God does not want you to purely reason your way to belief. I shook my head at it many time. For whatever the reason God seems to be into this 'Faith' thing...YET not empty faith (which would be void of historical analysis). My previous post was my attempt to invite you into my strange quirky mind lol at my humble attempt to try to explain the reasoning (as far as I see it at least). I would be far from shocked if it didn't make sense lol I'm no author.
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Which message are you referring to here?
It's a strange statement for me to make. Did I say that? I wouldn't have formed those words to be used in an isolated context like that, rather I would have used words like "I know the bible contains truth".
I thought of an example of truth for you yesterday that is in the bible, that you might like to consider:
John 10:1
Consider whether what Jesus is saying is true in every way. If someone tries to enter the sheep pen by climbing over the side, they are trying to enter without being seen by the one who possesses it. Does this always mean they are a thief and a robber? A thief and a robber is someone taking what belongs to someone else against that person's will, and even by force. Therefore, is this a statement of truth?
Good! This makes sense to me. I have run some tests to verify your claim, and my conscience does not alert me that your statement here (which you have presented as truth) contains any untruth... Assuming that you have meant to use the second definition of the word "determine" given here:
- cause (something) to occur in a particular way or to have a particular nature.
- ascertain or establish exactly by research or calculation.
I would like you to determine whether these are true statements.
What are the best reasons to believe this?
I am of the firm belief that God will use any means He chooses in order to get through to people, not just the text of the bible. I should stress at this, that the bible is a formal collection of documents from people who have had faith in God and have been involved in Jesus' ministry, and if it were not so formalized but rather continued to exist as individual scrolls, then probably you would be viewing the faith it represents, with a bit of a different perspective.
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You end up prostrate when you see something beautiful or ugly ??
There have been some attempts at answering the OP question indeed, but I am finding them a little vague and lacking in substance. I'm hoping for a better perspective.
- Its the best way possible - unlikely
- Its the only way we will accept - unlikely
- Its the way he chose it to be - why?
What have I missed so far?
So super natural acts increase in level from a conversation, to printed stone, to a divine messenger. Then it all stops and we must simply have faith. Does that not sound like someone giving up? Surely a better next step would be to send something even more impressive until we can no longer deny it and there is no more confusion?
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I thought the message was to love God and everything else (amongst other things). How does many embody this? Is he not almost an opposite?
The heart in its metaphorical sense, is a great mystery. I don't see how its change can be seen as a miracle or how anyone can even claim to "know" it. Perhaps you could explain further?
It is certainly a part of the buying in process, but don't we view every salesman with a healthy does of suspicion? Are the Amazon reviews not prone to some manipulation by paying reviewers. Word of mouth is a great way for an introduction or an awareness about a product. Some products can be returned if I am not happy with my purchase. Does Christianity return a life to its owner?
But the analogy loses transaction from here. If I buy a bad book from Amazon, I become annoyed at my wasted purchase and move on, there is not really much consequence. I think you need to include example of significant purchases. A car, a house.
How much do you rely on the sales people there? Or do you perhaps view the house, touch it, check for damp, view the garden, measure it to see if your furniture will fit, test lights and water, check out the local traffic routes, view local school records, drive the neighbourhood. We don't buy houses based solely on the word of others, and now we must be expected to buy our life based solely on the view of another?
The message still contains the fear element. If you don't believe me you will "burn in hell". That sounds a little intimidating. In any event, if God or a supernatural display arrived now, why do you think there would be fear? Initially perhaps, with some surprise and awe, but as he explains everything to us directly without a silly intermediary, surely the fear will subside? Then we can make our decisions based on pure, untainted information. We can use our free will to make choices based on solid information, rather than hearsay.
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I'm sorry, but I don't really understand this. Could you explain it another way? I'm not sure what sanctifying means here and how this makes perfect sense.
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Indeed. I like your analogy.
On the contrary, yours has been a wonderfully written piece explaining your perspective in a well thought out matter. You've taken a balanced view and seem to be able to see it from both sides. That's impressive.
This thread is unlikely to change either of our views, but what it may do is increase understanding of others, which leads to tolerance.
I think we both accept that something significant happened 2000 years ago, its just the level and details under dispute. You are able to accept the study of academics and rely on the records near that time, then with some faith are content to believe. I cannot fault that. Its a personal decision.
I on the other hand am more sceptical. I cannot bring myself to accept tales from ancient man, no matter how apparently out of the ordinary. I cannot accept that Luke (if he was one person) had any way of verifying these story claims that happened generations before. I see no way or reason to accept anything so important on faith. No, sorry, I need something in addition to the human messenger. That's just me, and I don't think I'm alone.
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The contents of the bible.
Post #11, your first line in your first reply.
I think we're getting a little side tracked here. How is this explaining why God only uses men as messengers?
If I remember correctly I found them a little obscure, I wasn't even sure what they meant, let alone whether they were true or not.
Well, I'd really like to be made aware of anything other than the bible and human messages. I'm not sure how my perspective would have changed. The messages remain the same - made by the hands of men.
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mmksparbud
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He spoke face to face at first--can't get more impressive than that--I already said, He has communicated with us as we have accepted--go back and read what I said. I don't wish to just keep repeating what I've already said. Of course, you don't have to accept that answer, or like it, never the less, that is what has happened. He hasn't given up, He has the Holy Spirit that still communicates with us, also---if we listen, but more often than not, we don't. There is enough to believe or not, so it depends on each of us. He is not going to force. If you were listening, you would not be using that name as your faith. There are things that have happened in your life that you view not as God stepping in and guiding your steps, but as luck. Whenever something bad happens, it's God's fault, whenever anything g good happens, it luck.
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Fair enough, I was probably a bit mischievous with that previous comment. I do so wish he would go back to his first step.
No its either luck or God. Either one should be blamed for both good sand bad depending on you convictions, one cant mix them up at ones convenience.
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mmksparbud
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But it is what people do--I knw God allows bad things to happen, Satan does do that--just read Job. I am not one that believes everything that happens is the best thing that could have happened. I believe God makes the best out of what happens--if we let Him.
I am disabled, so is my husband. Over thes past 10 years, since we moved into this house, our ability to keep up the maintenance of it was severely limited by our limitations. I would cry at times at how bad it looked, how unclean, unkempt, paint coming off the walls from the wheelchairs being so difficult to maneuver in such close quarters, with black marks all over the walls and doors. So what happens?? My water heater broke and flooded the house---insult to injury--Really Lord, was this really needed right now??--I was heart sick. Had to call in the insurance guys--who discovered we had mold now and all the laminate flooring had to be torn out and then they found asbestos also--walls had to be replaced. More boohooing---that meant we had to move out and live in hotel suite for 3 mths. Well. I got everything I'd been crying about fixed. New floors, new walls, freshly painted, new doors even, 3 mths in a hotel with maid service and free food, the insurance co. did all the moving out and moving in, they cancelled the insurance and we had to search for another company who gave us more coverage for nearly $500 a year LESS! Good grief, why did I waste time whining?? OK--I believe Satan meant this for just adding more heartache for us, but God allowed it for a much better purpose. I love it when the rug gets pulled out under him!
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