Why Catholic and not Orthodox?

[Eretria90]

I'm glad you put, "it seems" because that implies it's your perception that I felt that way; you're quite wrong. That was not my intent at all.

My intent was really to try to convince me why I should stay Catholic? 35 years of my life I was Catholic and part of me wants to be able to stay but my intellect and faith are moving toward the East for sure.

I had a good long-time friend of mine say some things to me that were not so kind, implying a lot about me in the open forum, and I had to defend myself. I still have those "concerns about Catholicism" as you put it.

My question remains: why stay Catholic and not Orthodox? If you want to chime in, I'm all ears. But I won't lie that I'm still more convinced by the East.

That is certainly what this thread has degraded into: an East vs. West issue. Also, it appears you have an agenda against the Novus Ordo. While I am sorry that you feel liturgical abuse has occurred, trashing the NO mass certainly isn't going to help you any more. I am quite tired of having seen such NO hatred on OBOB throughout its history: it's no wonder I do not post here. Whether it's from fellow Catholics or people who come in claiming they know everything about the Catholic Church, I have seen too much of it whether it's on OBOB, CAF, or Fisheaters.

Please do not take my post as an attack against you; rather, I am thinking outloud because this is a repeated process I keep seeing no matter where I go on the internet. I answered your question I believe in pg. 4 of the thread. I can't really give you a good answer because I reconverted "out of the blue" so to speak. God told me to start going back to Church, with the help of a Catholic saint. There was no "thinking" involved as to whether which Church is "correct" or not. There was an "I will obey God no matter what He tells me." That's a good enough reason for me to believe why I should be Catholic and not Orthodox.

If God calls you to be Orthodox, so be it. But don't become Orthodox just because you're fed up with the NO mass. Why become a stringent anti-Catholic and a westophobic when these are the exact same people you may have been trying to get away from? If you think the Orthodox Church doesn't have its own problems, you're living in fantasyland. Problems exist in every church, every denomination. The Baptist church that my grandparents went to had a pastor that stole all the money the congregants had donated and ran off with it without a trace. Am I going to assume all Baptists are this way? That same mindset you seem to be applying because you had some bad experiences at certain parishes.

I have no problem with Orthodox Christianity itself; I love Orthodox Churches, Saints, Icons, etc. but I do not like the certain attitudes that I see recurring among internet Orthodox Christians. What I have seen is "westophobia" and a "high and mighty" attitude that just can't cut it in Christianity. And yes, I get the same vibe from Traditionalist Catholics and Evangelical Protestants as well.

I'm sorry folks, but it's time to move on from this 1,000 year grudge. I'm quite tired of hearing the East blaming the West and vice-versa. Get over it, please. We can point fingers all we want, but the truth is, we were both One, True, Holy Apostolic Church at one point in our history and it's both our faults such a split occurred. We should stop blaming people for something that occurred hundreds of years ago in which people of today had absolutely no control over. That includes our leaders and our Popes. Atheists see this as a good way to constantly attack Christianity and do we really want to sink down to the low level of ignorant atheists I have debated on internet forums? I think not.

So, my post will end with this thought for you: It is not about us forcing the Church to adapt to our own wants and needs, it's about us adapting to the needs of the Church. This isn't "pick and choose" like Protestantism, where we create our own "liturgy," beliefs, our own Bible, etc. You want the liturgy to adapt to you. It's not going to happen.

 

[Anhelyna]

Eretria

 

[InnerPhyre]

His own words...and to do so was thru the Trinity to which He is.
NOW was He wrong?
Did He lie? Did He deliberately try to trump the Father?

OR was He telling the truth that HE sends the HS - being that HE is God of the Godhead.

I think you didn't read my post. I said that Jesus sends the Spirit temporally. Everyone agrees on that.

 

[whitetiger1]

I'm glad you put, "it seems" because that implies it's your perception that I felt that way; you're quite wrong. That was not my intent at all.

My intent was really to try to convince me why I should stay Catholic? 35 years of my life I was Catholic and part of me wants to be able to stay but my intellect and faith are moving toward the East for sure.

I had a good long-time friend of mine say some things to me that were not so kind, implying a lot about me in the open forum, and I had to defend myself. I still have those "concerns about Catholicism" as you put it.

My question remains: why stay Catholic and not Orthodox? If you want to chime in, I'm all ears. But I won't lie that I'm still more convinced by the East.

I will tell you I have no convincing arguments, just to always pray about it. If that is where God is leading than it would be prudent to follow His lead, we must follow as God leads.

 

[Lady Bug]

this does not mean that I am inclining to Orthodoxy and this is probably a VERY wrong place to put this, because this is already a difficult thread but -

I do not know about Orthodoxy but sometimes I feel that some characteristics of Catholicism as we know it today were not around in apostolic times and it is troubling me...like all this Canon Law and certain things we have to do in Lent or whatever. I don't know why this is happening to me. I'd never be a Protestant (I know they say, never say never but I don't agree with that) but I do not feel that the Catholic Church as we know it today is exactly like it was in Biblical times - I think that, stripped down to its fundamentals, it IS what it would have been in Biblical times but I am wondering if all the tenets of the Catholic Church were around in Biblical times or sprang up later on in future decades and centuries - that is, at its core it is the closest set of beliefs to the truth but there feels to be too much embellishment...I don't know what to do :/

I can't seem to let go of purgatory though. I don't want to sound disrespectful - I really do not - but it feels whacked to deny its existence and Catholicism is the only branch of Christianity that acknowledges it - so yeah my mind if all over the place.

edit: reading about the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism (please tell me if there are any mistakes in this document) and as much as I don't want to add insult to injury, I think I have trouble with both right now - I have trouble with Protestantism too - ugh not a great day for establishing my spiritual identity. Can't assent to - denial of purgatory, lack of definitive authority for interpreting scripture, 2nd or 3rd marriages permitted, denial of Immaculate Conception, etc. I don't know what to say :/

 

[Joshua G.]

LadyBug, I think you should keep in mind that Roman Catholics (liek Orthodox) are not to believe we are the Early Church. We aren't. We are the continuation of that Church. We are not that Church of the 500's, the 1500's the 1990's or the Church of China (unless you are in China). That quest is a very protestant quest, to mirror the Early Church. Needless to say, it has lead many people to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but hopefully by that time they realized that we are not called to reinvent the wheel in hopes that it looks like the earliest wheel.

As for Purgatory, there are only certain parts of this Catholic Doctrine which seem to not be compatible with Orthodox understanding. Purgaotry as a place or state where one is purged of their passions so that they may enter into God's presence is a very Orthodox concept and I would argue that it is quite difficutl to defend in Orthodoxy that most people just *snap* go to heaven or hell upon death.

What is different in Orthodoxy is that there is no doctrine on what you must believe about all of this, rather doctrine on what you can't believe (e.g. soul sleep). What is also interesting is that prayer for the dead is something that is followed religiously (no pun intended lol): right after death, especially during the first three days, recognizing the 40th day and then the anniversary every year. Regardless of what Orthodox parish I have visited, thre are Panakhidas (special short service for departed brothers and sisters) at the end of services much more than not. So, whatever it is that keeps it going on, no Orthodox ever says "why should I pray for the dead if we don't have any doctrine about what happens". It's what you do. Devout or Twice-a-year Orthodox... virtually no one breaks these traditions.

Josh

 

[Azureknight 773]

That is certainly what this thread has degraded into: an East vs. West issue. Also, it appears you have an agenda against the Novus Ordo. While I am sorry that you feel liturgical abuse has occurred, trashing the NO mass certainly isn't going to help you any more. I am quite tired of having seen such NO hatred on OBOB throughout its history: it's no wonder I do not post here. Whether it's from fellow Catholics or people who come in claiming they know everything about the Catholic Church, I have seen too much of it whether it's on OBOB, CAF, or Fisheaters.

Please do not take my post as an attack against you; rather, I am thinking outloud because this is a repeated process I keep seeing no matter where I go on the internet. I answered your question I believe in pg. 4 of the thread. I can't really give you a good answer because I reconverted "out of the blue" so to speak. God told me to start going back to Church, with the help of a Catholic saint. There was no "thinking" involved as to whether which Church is "correct" or not. There was an "I will obey God no matter what He tells me." That's a good enough reason for me to believe why I should be Catholic and not Orthodox.

If God calls you to be Orthodox, so be it. But don't become Orthodox just because you're fed up with the NO mass. Why become a stringent anti-Catholic and a westophobic when these are the exact same people you may have been trying to get away from? If you think the Orthodox Church doesn't have its own problems, you're living in fantasyland. Problems exist in every church, every denomination. The Baptist church that my grandparents went to had a pastor that stole all the money the congregants had donated and ran off with it without a trace. Am I going to assume all Baptists are this way? That same mindset you seem to be applying because you had some bad experiences at certain parishes.

I have no problem with Orthodox Christianity itself; I love Orthodox Churches, Saints, Icons, etc. but I do not like the certain attitudes that I see recurring among internet Orthodox Christians. What I have seen is "westophobia" and a "high and mighty" attitude that just can't cut it in Christianity. And yes, I get the same vibe from Traditionalist Catholics and Evangelical Protestants as well.

I'm sorry folks, but it's time to move on from this 1,000 year grudge. I'm quite tired of hearing the East blaming the West and vice-versa. Get over it, please. We can point fingers all we want, but the truth is, we were both One, True, Holy Apostolic Church at one point in our history and it's both our faults such a split occurred. We should stop blaming people for something that occurred hundreds of years ago in which people of today had absolutely no control over. That includes our leaders and our Popes. Atheists see this as a good way to constantly attack Christianity and do we really want to sink down to the low level of ignorant atheists I have debated on internet forums? I think not.

So, my post will end with this thought for you: It is not about us forcing the Church to adapt to our own wants and needs, it's about us adapting to the needs of the Church. This isn't "pick and choose" like Protestantism, where we create our own "liturgy," beliefs, our own Bible, etc. You want the liturgy to adapt to you. It's not going to happen.

AMEN!

 

[Adam Warlock]

AMEN!

Agreed!!!

 

[Michie]

That is certainly what this thread has degraded into: an East vs. West issue. Also, it appears you have an agenda against the Novus Ordo. While I am sorry that you feel liturgical abuse has occurred, trashing the NO mass certainly isn't going to help you any more. I am quite tired of having seen such NO hatred on OBOB throughout its history: it's no wonder I do not post here. Whether it's from fellow Catholics or people who come in claiming they know everything about the Catholic Church, I have seen too much of it whether it's on OBOB, CAF, or Fisheaters.

Please do not take my post as an attack against you; rather, I am thinking outloud because this is a repeated process I keep seeing no matter where I go on the internet. I answered your question I believe in pg. 4 of the thread. I can't really give you a good answer because I reconverted "out of the blue" so to speak. God told me to start going back to Church, with the help of a Catholic saint. There was no "thinking" involved as to whether which Church is "correct" or not. There was an "I will obey God no matter what He tells me." That's a good enough reason for me to believe why I should be Catholic and not Orthodox.

If God calls you to be Orthodox, so be it. But don't become Orthodox just because you're fed up with the NO mass. Why become a stringent anti-Catholic and a westophobic when these are the exact same people you may have been trying to get away from? If you think the Orthodox Church doesn't have its own problems, you're living in fantasyland. Problems exist in every church, every denomination. The Baptist church that my grandparents went to had a pastor that stole all the money the congregants had donated and ran off with it without a trace. Am I going to assume all Baptists are this way? That same mindset you seem to be applying because you had some bad experiences at certain parishes.

I have no problem with Orthodox Christianity itself; I love Orthodox Churches, Saints, Icons, etc. but I do not like the certain attitudes that I see recurring among internet Orthodox Christians. What I have seen is "westophobia" and a "high and mighty" attitude that just can't cut it in Christianity. And yes, I get the same vibe from Traditionalist Catholics and Evangelical Protestants as well.

I'm sorry folks, but it's time to move on from this 1,000 year grudge. I'm quite tired of hearing the East blaming the West and vice-versa. Get over it, please. We can point fingers all we want, but the truth is, we were both One, True, Holy Apostolic Church at one point in our history and it's both our faults such a split occurred. We should stop blaming people for something that occurred hundreds of years ago in which people of today had absolutely no control over. That includes our leaders and our Popes. Atheists see this as a good way to constantly attack Christianity and do we really want to sink down to the low level of ignorant atheists I have debated on internet forums? I think not.

So, my post will end with this thought for you: It is not about us forcing the Church to adapt to our own wants and needs, it's about us adapting to the needs of the Church. This isn't "pick and choose" like Protestantism, where we create our own "liturgy," beliefs, our own Bible, etc. You want the liturgy to adapt to you. It's not going to happen.

 

[Michie]

I'm in agreement with Eretria.

Me also.

 

[Assisi]

OP you said you posted to hear some reasons to come back to the Catholic Church, and that you are disappointed in the parishes in your region.

Have you considered contacting Opus Dei? A spiritual retreat might help you, the members might also be able to help you find a good parish for one last try.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Joshua G.]

I suppose if anyone dislikes hammering out the history - then they dont really need to discuss this.

If someone is going to ask why Catholic, i am going to give the answer - which necessitates the truth of history including the fathers, the heresies, the schism et al.

It is what it is. And time and again it comes out rather badly for the EO - that i dont enjoy. But IMHO - i will defend the Pope and his ancient position of the Church.

This is not just to WA by any means:

I don't mind that Catholics see this differently than I do. This is obviously an important, although contentious, issue. THese issues need to be discussed.

But what I object to, on both sides, is the insinuation that the "other side" just doesn't want to face up to history; that the other side is just putting its head in the sand.

Are we honestly supposed to believe that both sides don't have really strong points to make for their side in regards to the Filioque or the Pope in Rome? I say this, especially when there are converts to both sides who, from what we can tell, have converted to one Church or the other clearly not ignorant of the other Church such as Jaroslav Pelikan (converted to Orthodoxy) and certainly many other historians who were well aware of Orthodoxy but ended up Catholic?

The thing is, although they came to conclusions, I think were either of them to read the comments in threads like these from both sides regarding the Filioque they would find quality stuff said on both sides but a gross oversimplification of history regarding the Papal Supremacy and the Filioque on both sides.

I just can't get over how both sides constantly act as if it is soooo obvious when it's not. I mean, seriously, WA, you just wouldn't get a powerhouse like Pelikan going Orthodox if it were so obvious and he knew history literally better than anyone in this forum or TAW. Anyone. You look at your own Pope's early writing. he didn't see these issues NEARLY as crystal clear historically as you guys do. Sticking with Pelikan as an example, I am positive that he would agree that it is not all so obvious as we in TAW like to think.

There is so muc more to consider, so much nuance. I have come to AN Orthodox conclusion on these major issues so, I am Orthodox. But, to tell the truth, it is difficult for me to fault those who become Catholic. I am not going to sit here and act like they are just ignoring the truth or use cheap lines like "So, is He lying". (Obviously we don't believe that Jesus lied. You have been involved in enough of these discussions where I am 100% sure that you know our response to that. You won't agree with it and that's fine...)

But it's not just you WA. It's a lot of us on both sides. We use such crappy and cheap rhetoric against each other that does nothing to help us learn.

It is not obvious. That doesn't mean there isn't a right or wrong answer to this. But I have a feeling that the answer is not so nice and spiffy as both of us would liek to think. To tell you the truth, I don't know that the average devout layperson in say... Syria in 300 AD would even understand what we're talking about. They wouldn't have an opinion on it other than "Oh, the Pope of Rome... what a leader for the Church!" which doesn't prove anything either way.

My point is that we are asking questions to history that history didn't always attempt to answer. That doesn't mean these resources aren't helpful, but we have to infer a lot or take them at their naked word understanding it how our minds are trained to understand the words they say.

I don't know. I know there are some here who get what I am saying in my clumsy wording. I would urge Catholics and Orthodox to read what Yves Congar and Cardinal Ratzinger had to say about these issues. I think they knew their stuff and I think they were intellectually sincere men (the latter, I beleive, still is).

There is a lack of nuance in these discussions that is sorely needed. I am not saying that we should hold hands and say "hey, we're both right!" but just realize that it's not obvious even if there is an answer in there somewhere.

I'm talking in circles now so I will shut up. lol

God bless guys,

Josh

 

[Lady Bug]

the problem is, no matter how many history books you read about this - no matter how many times both sides banter back and forth saying that their side of history is more convincing, SOMETHING is the truth. It just bugs me. Either something happened or it didn't. Either Catholicism is right or Orthodoxy is right. But both can't be. There is an objective truth but it seems that both sides are so irreconcilable that we won't be able to find that objective truth.

 

[Joshua G.]

I dont' disagree. But the truth isn't always obvious.

 

[Lady Bug]

that's the problem. it isn't obvious but at the same time it exists

 

[Joshua G.]

But I would add that perhaps the questions we are asking or the way we are forming the questions are uniquely modern.

It might not be as simple as "Is the Pope Infallible?" or "Is the filioque wrong" or at least perhaps those weren't the questions the early Church Fathers we like to quote had in mind when they said the things they did.

Josh

 

[ebia]

the problem is, no matter how many history books you read about this - no matter how many times both sides banter back and forth saying that their side of history is more convincing, SOMETHING is the truth. It just bugs me. Either something happened or it didn't. Either Catholicism is right or Orthodoxy is right. But both can't be. There is an objective truth but it seems that both sides are so irreconcilable that we won't be able to find that objective truth.

You left out the possibility that both sides are partially wrong.

 

[Joshua G.]

Ebia... but we have to consider what both sides are. Is what most here are saying THE Catholic stand. Is what most say in TAW THE orthodox Answer? I can at least speak for the Orthodox Church. IN reality there are more perspectives one can have on the Pope (perspectives that can sounds almost Catholic) than perspectives one can't and still be inline with Orthodox thinking. But there is also the popular mainstream response of today that is oversimplified... but still legit.

Josh

 

[Lady Bug]

You left out the possibility that both sides are partially wrong.

actually I think I said that in one of my posts today though...

 

[ebia]

actually I think I said that in one of my posts today though...

Quite possibly