Why are they are not Saved ??

[ToBeLoved]

The two covenants (Old and New), do not explain the drastically different depictions of God. The only way reconcile the two characterizations is to believe that God somehow "changed". But all Christians--even though we may disagree on many things, we all believe God to be timeless and eternal. It is a certainty that God has not changed. God has ALWAYS been the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

But it does explain it.

The Israelite's were to obey God's law. The Law of Moses. Break one law, you've broken all of them. That was the standard. Many times the Israelite's did not obey God and what prophets said. It was a specific people under a specific covenant.

Now, all are under Christ and we have forgiveness of sin if we are Christ's Own.

Two different covenants.

 

[Rodan6]

But it does explain it.

The Israelite's were to obey God's law. The Law of Moses. Break one law, you've broken all of them. That was the standard. Many times the Israelite's did not obey God and what prophets said. It was a specific people under a specific covenant.

Now, all are under Christ and we have forgiveness of sin if we are Christ's Own.

Two different covenants.

What did Jesus ever say or do that leads you to believe God could have performed such evil deeds attributed to Him in the Old Testament? The laws Moses brought greatly improved religious doctrine and helped bring advanced social order to the people. The Sabbath, for example was for the benefit of the people--that they should have a day of rest and that they be mindful of social and religious teaching. God would never have commanded the execution of a person for violating the Sabbath. And, I also suspect that a great leader like Moses very likely would not have ordered such things either. It is far more likely that in the hundreds of years following Moses time, this more intolerant approach to the laws became adopted gradually. Remember, the accounts we have from Moses age came from oral history, handed down from generation to generation. It is easy to see how this rigidity would gradually creep into the social and religious order in an effort to maintain control and to offer institutional comfort (and build some morale) during the great persecutions that followed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What did Jesus ever say or do that leads you to believe God could have performed such evil deeds attributed to Him in the Old Testament?

Just because we don't understand why God did what He did in the Old Testament, does not mean they were or are evil. That is your word, and I would not say such a thing about God. He tells us of His nature all throughout the Bible.

Now, does God correct behaviors, yes He does. This is in the New Testament also. His Children He does chasten for that is what a Loving Father does. It builds faith, not takes it away.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What did Jesus ever say or do that leads you to believe God could have performed such evil deeds attributed to Him in the Old Testament? The laws Moses brought greatly improved religious doctrine and helped bring advanced social order to the people. The Sabbath, for example was for the benefit of the people--that they should have a day of rest and that they be mindful of social and religious teaching. God would never have commanded the execution of a person for violating the Sabbath. And, I also suspect that a great leader like Moses very likely would not have ordered such things either. It is far more likely that in the hundreds of years following Moses time, this more intolerant approach to the laws became adopted gradually. Remember, the accounts we have from Moses age came from oral history, handed down from generation to generation. It is easy to see how this rigidity would gradually creep into the social and religious order in an effort to maintain control and to offer institutional comfort (and build some morale) during the great persecutions that followed.

Have you read Exodus? It talks about Moses a lot and what happened during that time. It is not only through oral history, it is written also.

 

[watchman 2]

Why is it from a biblical perspective ( where it actually says in the bible ) that certain members of various sects are not saved or not considered christian that are considered by some to be cults and or heretical ?

examples ( particularly since many or some of them they consider themselves to be christian ).

Mormons ( LDS ) , Jehovah’s Witnesses Ect......

I mean who decides who is saved and who is not ?

I have to say upfront that my wife is LDS ( but I am not ) even so I go to their church and I am fine with what they believe ( for them not for me , I flat out do not believe what they do ) .

Anyway just wondering ; not just LDS folks but any yo might what to specify are not saved in your opinion )

Thank you in advance for all your responses.

Also , please forgive me for my bad spelling and grammar on all my post and responses

Hi Karl ,

We need to start at the beginning , your asking a question that would be better asked 3/4 of the way through the Salvation journey.

The first thing that must happen is the the Father must draw people to Christ. "nobody comes to Christ lest the Father draws them." So we could ask , what is the Father drawing us to? The answer to that question has been lost to time , but would probably make perfect sense to you. The answer is that God the Father is drawing those to "faithe" into Jesus Christ. You may have noticed i used a word that is not in the English language. The reason is that the word in the Greek , "pisteuo" could not be translated into English. We should have had the words faithe , faither , and faithing , but those words were not available to the translators. So , they chose to use the words believe , believer , and believing. This mistranslation happened 248 times in the NT.

The true meaning of "pisteuo" the verb form of the noun "Faith" , means : "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender." What are we surrendering ? Our life ! Who are we surrendering our life to ? Jesus Christ !

So to just start the relationship with Christ , we must be drawn , then respond with continual surrendering of our lives to Christ. That is how we "faithe' into Him . The world today is just what you presented , many different understandings of how "we are saved", but the truth is , we could surrender our life to God at any time in history , in any denomination in history. Knowing God is not a requirement , only the surrendering of our life and will to Him is.

The church world today stands completely on the mistranslation , "believing in Gods Word." All the denominations have a different understanding of what Gods Word is. But the focus of Faith and faithing , is "not" on Gods Word , the focus is on God himself. We can't surrender our lives to a book , even if it's Gods Word. We surrender our lives to a real , living PERSON!

So true Faith and faithing could look like this in a perfect world. I could see a Catholic , a protestant , an Assembly's of God , Methodist , Calvinist , Baptist , even our friendly dispensationalists , all sitting in the same building , surrendering their lives to God. I would go as far to say , even knowing the name of Christ would not be a requirement. But if they were all surrendering their life and will to God , they have started the process and are potential candidates to move forward in the process of being saved.

Now the second you inject a theology into the midst of all those , and say they are saved by "believing" in one of them , they are not only faithing incorrectly , they have not even started the process by fulfilling the enitial surrendering of the life and will to God. So my point and answer to your question , is practice your traditions , but preach faithing into Christ.

 

[watchman 2]

Hi Karl ,

We need to start at the beginning , your asking a question that would be better asked 3/4 of the way through the Salvation journey.

The first thing that must happen is the the Father must draw people to Christ. "nobody comes to Christ lest the Father draws them." So we could ask , what is the Father drawing us to? The answer to that question has been lost to time , but would probably make perfect sense to you. The answer is that God the Father is drawing those to "faithe" into Jesus Christ. You may have noticed i used a word that is not in the English language. The reason is that the word in the Greek , "pisteuo" could not be translated into English. We should have had the words faithe , faither , and faithing , but those words were not available to the translators. So , they chose to use the words believe , believer , and believing. This mistranslation happened 248 times in the NT.

The true meaning of "pisteuo" the verb form of the noun "Faith" , means : "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender." What are we surrendering ? Our life ! Who are we surrendering our life to ? Jesus Christ !

So to just start the relationship with Christ , we must be drawn , then respond with continual surrendering of our lives to Christ. That is how we "faithe' into Him . The world today is just what you presented , many different understandings of how "we are saved", but the truth is , we could surrender our life to God at any time in history , in any denomination in history. Knowing God is not a requirement , only the surrendering of our life and will to Him is.

The church world today stands completely on the mistranslation , "believing in Gods Word." All the denominations have a different understanding of what Gods Word is. But the focus of Faith and faithing , is "not" on Gods Word , the focus is on God himself. We can't surrender our lives to a book , even if it's Gods Word. We surrender our lives to a real , living PERSON!

So true Faith and faithing could look like this in a perfect world. I could see a Catholic , a protestant , an Assembly's of God , Methodist , Calvinist , Baptist , even our friendly dispensationalists , all sitting in the same building , surrendering their lives to God. I would go as far to say , even knowing the name of Christ would not be a requirement. But if they were all surrendering their life and will to God , they have started the process and are potential candidates to move forward in the process of being saved.

Now the second you inject a theology into the midst of all those , and say they are saved by "believing" in one of them , they are not only faithing incorrectly , they have not even started the process by fulfilling the enitial surrendering of the life and will to God. So my point and answer to your question , is practice your traditions , but preach faithing into Christ.

Bumped for Karl.

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

If they believe in the FULL divinity of Jesus they are saved, of course to me Salvation has evidence and it's a continual process as I believe one can fall away... but I nor does anyone else have the right to say someone isn't truly saved, all we can do is know them by their fruit, tell them the truth in love, and pray for them but ultimately everyone has their own free will.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If they believe in the FULL divinity of Jesus they are saved, of course to me Salvation has evidence and it's a continual process as I believe one can fall away... but I nor does anyone else have the right to say someone isn't truly saved, all we can do is know them by their fruit, tell them the truth in love, and pray for them but ultimately everyone has their own free will.

Are you talking about the Jesus that is God or the Jesus that was a man and earned Godhood like they will someday?

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

Are you talking about the Jesus that is God or the Jesus that was a man and earned Godhood like they will someday?

He didn't earn it or even obtain it, He was a God. He was God almighty come down in the flesh, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He didn't earn it or even obtain it, He was a God. He was God almighty come down in the flesh, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

I'm just telling you what Mormons teach about Jesus.

So, are they saved with 'their Jesus' who is not God?

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

I'm just telling you what Mormons teach about Jesus.

So, are they saved with 'their Jesus' who is not God?

I'm not a Mormon though??? I guess I'm confused as to why you would lump me in with Mormonism?

Now to answer your question on whether they are saved or not; I can't completely answer that as I don't know the heart of every Mormon individual. No, I don't think Jesus obtained it nor do I think we can obtain god like status, BUT I think that anyone who calls upon the Lord can be saved - of course I will add that there will be evidence of salvation by the fruits one bares.

I'm not a theologian, I'm a mere Christian who humbly admits I make mistakes and I always try to remain open to correction by the Holy Spirit within me.

I'm not a heresy hunter I don't go around trying to cause trouble, and I don't go around telling other groups they are not saved or heretics I just tell the Word and I let the Word open the eyes of those who hear it. If that makes sense.

I have no right to do Gods job, we can know them by their fruit but I won't condemn any man to hell.

 

[rjs330]

The two covenants (Old and New), do not explain the drastically different depictions of God. The only way reconcile the two characterizations is to believe that God somehow "changed". But all Christians--even though we may disagree on many things, we all believe God to be timeless and eternal. It is a certainty that God has not changed. God has ALWAYS been the loving Father revealed by Jesus.

You miss a very important point and that is God in the OT was loving and kind. He was also just as well. The only difference is that God meeted out his judgments immediately back then. Now because of Christ he is holding back,his judgements until the end.

God is the same yesterday today and foever. He does not change. That refers to his character not necessarily is immediate actions.
Note the wording. He is the same, not acts the same. He was and is and always will be a living God. Note these verses.

You shall walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.
Deuteronomy 5:33 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.5.33.ESV

"And when the Lord your God brings you into the land that he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you—with great and good cities that you did not build, and houses full of all good things that you did not fill, and cisterns that you did not dig, and vineyards and olive trees that you did not plant—and when you eat and are full,
Deuteronomy 6:10‭-‬11 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.6.10-11.ESV

The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord , the Lord , a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
Exodus 34:6‭-‬7 ESV
http://bible.com/59/exo.34.6-7.ESV

Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you.
Psalms 63:3 ESV
http://bible.com/59/psa.63.3.ESV

So his love his spoken of and also shown over and over again to his people in the OT.

Now in the NT God is still a God of anger and judgement.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36 ESV
http://bible.com/59/jhn.3.36.ESV

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 2:1‭-‬5 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rom.2.1-5.ESV

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 5:5‭-‬6 ESV
http://bible.com/59/eph.5.5-6.ESV

When you read Revelations the wrath and judgements of God are revealed all the way to the end of the book.

Like I said, God is no different. Its just that he is not meeting out his judgemnts on earth the way he did it then. He is showing his patience differently and withholding his judgements until the final judgement.

 

[Rodan6]

You miss a very important point and that is God in the OT was loving and kind. He was also just as well. The only difference is that God meeted out his judgments immediately back then. Now because of Christ he is holding back,his judgements until the end.

God is the same yesterday today and foever. He does not change. That refers to his character not necessarily is immediate actions.
Note the wording. He is the same, not acts the same. He was and is and always will be a living God. Note these verses.

You shall walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.
Deuteronomy 5:33 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.5.33.ESV

"And when the Lord your God brings you into the land that he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give you—with great and good cities that you did not build, and houses full of all good things that you did not fill, and cisterns that you did not dig, and vineyards and olive trees that you did not plant—and when you eat and are full,
Deuteronomy 6:10‭-‬11 ESV
http://bible.com/59/deu.6.10-11.ESV

The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord , the Lord , a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
Exodus 34:6‭-‬7 ESV
http://bible.com/59/exo.34.6-7.ESV

Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you.
Psalms 63:3 ESV
http://bible.com/59/psa.63.3.ESV

So his love his spoken of and also shown over and over again to his people in the OT.

Now in the NT God is still a God of anger and judgement.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36 ESV
http://bible.com/59/jhn.3.36.ESV

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 2:1‭-‬5 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rom.2.1-5.ESV

For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 5:5‭-‬6 ESV
http://bible.com/59/eph.5.5-6.ESV

Unfortunately, all but one of your citations represent the viewpoints of persons other than Jesus. In the only passage you cite that depicts Jesus' actual teaching (John 3), Jesus uses the word "wrath", but the context of the passage is referring to those who reject Jesus' teachings. He states that those who believe His teaching will have eternal life and those who reject His teaching will not. "Wrath" is NOT defined here. I believe that those who reject Jesus' teachings, reject life. Nothing of value is ever lost, but those who fail to create a survivable soul (through the decisions they make in life) will be terminated upon physical death.

 

[rjs330]

Note a few sayings of Jesus here.

But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:20‭-‬23 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rev.2.20-23.ESV

 

[Rodan6]

Note a few sayings of Jesus here.

But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:20‭-‬23 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rev.2.20-23.ESV

The portion you cite in Johns' vision from Revelations (as we have it) is not at all consistent with anything Jesus taught--nor is it even consistent with John's own personal account of the life and teachings of Jesus. You should ask yourself, "does it make sense that a man known as the "Apostle of love" would write such things?". Your citation is excellent proof that John's account in Revelations has been modified by others in the years after he wrote it.

 

[Rodan6]

The vile notion that God would punish the children born of a sinner is a gross perversion of Jesus' teachings and His revelation of our loving Father.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why is it from a biblical perspective ( where it actually says in the bible ) that certain members of various sects are not saved or not considered christian that are considered by some to be cults and or heretical ?

"Various sects" aren't addressed in the Bbible, beyond the WARNING that there will BE False Sects, False Prophets, And FALSE teachers.

Bottom line:
Act 4:
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Eph 2:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Heb 11:
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That's the SIMPLICITY of the Gospel. If anybody preaches or teaches ANOTHER WAY to be saved - they're FALSE Teachers, and can only lead their victims to destruction.

Simple as that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not a Mormon though??? I guess I'm confused as to why you would lump me in with Mormonism?

Now to answer your question on whether they are saved or not; I can't completely answer that as I don't know the heart of every Mormon individual. No, I don't think Jesus obtained it nor do I think we can obtain god like status, BUT I think that anyone who calls upon the Lord can be saved - of course I will add that there will be evidence of salvation by the fruits one bares.

I'm not a theologian, I'm a mere Christian who humbly admits I make mistakes and I always try to remain open to correction by the Holy Spirit within me.

I'm not a heresy hunter I don't go around trying to cause trouble, and I don't go around telling other groups they are not saved or heretics I just tell the Word and I let the Word open the eyes of those who hear it. If that makes sense.

I have no right to do Gods job, we can know them by their fruit but I won't condemn any man to hell.

I'm not lumping you in with Mormonism, but the OP has a wife who is Mormon, so I'm just explaining what they believe.

Nothing personal meant by it.

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

I'm not lumping you in with Mormonism, but the OP has a wife who is Mormon, so I'm just explaining what they believe.

Nothing personal meant by it.

Oh okay I'm sorry for the misunderstanding