Why are so many Christians fans of Ayn Rand?

[Nurbz]

I'm sort of curious because so many self-identified conservative christians laud Ayn Rand as some sort of visionary.

She was as people know, an objectivist, where she started with the assumption, or as she would say "metaphysical axiom," that reality consists exclusively of what is perceivable by the physical senses. This rules out God and any supernatural dimension. All human action should be predicated on reason, including the class of human action that falls under the heading of ethics. An objective ethics is therefore a necessity of human existence, and Rand defines it as an ethics of self-interest, seen as our most important asset and selfishness as virtue while unselfishness or concern over the welfare of others is a danger, a liability, or in some cases immoral. She tried to give a defense of pure laissez-faire capitalism as the only socioeconomic system that gives free rein to profit-seeking selfishness.

These things are the core of which a society and government, she feels, should be built on. However these things are the polar opposite of what Jesus spoke about and serious sins. She would hold Jesus in contempt for his philosophy and consider the apostles' actions in the book of Acts to be "communist". I'm sure she'd really be at odds with Proverbs 28:20 "A Faithful Man Will Abound With Blessings, But He Who Hastens To Be Rich Will Not Go Unpunished."

The very fact alone she doesn't consider God to be part of reality is something that christians have criticized other people over. Am I just assuming too much?

 

[variant]

It is funny that a religion based upon the teachings of Jesus would revere the woman who wrote "The Virtue of Selfishness.".

But then again most Christians I know read neither of these deeply enough to understand the double-thought involved

But to answer the question: A lot of Christians really hate the government and Ayn Rand did too.

 

[Harpuia]

Even funnier that Christians would look up to an atheist.

Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, there's hope for you guys yet.

 

[dbakerman76]

Even when I was a conservative/libertarian I had no use for her. There is no room for charity or taking care of the less fortunate in her worldview. Imagine the world we'd live in if everybody just looked out for themselves and no one else.

 

[variant]

Even when I was a conservative/libertarian I had no use for her. There is no room for charity or taking care of the less fortunate in her worldview. Imagine the world we'd live in if everybody just looked out for themselves and no one else.

That's not entirely true, Ayn Rand thinks that charity is undertaken because it makes people feel good about themselves, she was just against the idea that charity was a moral duty.

 

[BondiHarry]

I'm sort of curious because so many self-identified conservative christians laud Ayn Rand as some sort of visionary.

She was as people know, an objectivist, where she started with the assumption, or as she would say "metaphysical axiom," that reality consists exclusively of what is perceivable by the physical senses. This rules out God and any supernatural dimension. All human action should be predicated on reason, including the class of human action that falls under the heading of ethics. An objective ethics is therefore a necessity of human existence, and Rand defines it as an ethics of self-interest, seen as our most important asset and selfishness as virtue while unselfishness or concern over the welfare of others is a danger liability, or in some cases immoral. She tried to give a defense of pure laissez-faire capitalism as the only socioeconomic system that gives free rein to profit-seeking selfishness.

These things are the core of which a society and government, she feels, should be built on. However these things are the polar opposite of what Jesus spoke about and serious sins. She would hold Jesus in contempt for his philosophy and consider the apostlesl actions in the book of Acts to be "communist". I'm sure she'd really be at odds with Proverbs Proverbs 28:20 "A Faithful Man Will Abound With Blessings, But He Who Hastens To Be Rich Will Not Go Unpunished."

The very fact alone she doesn't consider God to be part of reality is something that christians have criticized other people over. Am I just assuming too much?

You are assuming some things. Your portrayal of her objectivist philosophy is not exactly accurate. Rand bitterly condemned self-sacrifice or altruism but she was an advocate of rational self-discipline. She also pointed out situations where helping others was the rational and therefore moral thing to do. She was quite critical of the premise of altruism but then I think Jesus would also condemn that corruption of His teachings. Jesus did not call for us to sacrifice our interests, He did call for us to surrender our imperfect wills to His perfect. Satan however has taken that and tried to pawn off on man that virtue consists of denying ourselves even good things whereas God wants us to deny ourselves the hurtful lusts of the flesh.

Your portrayal of what God teaches us about the handling of money and government are I think in direct conflict with what God says in the Bible. Of all the economic systems devised by man I believe true free market capitalism is more compatible with God's teachings. It forces those who seek wealth to get it by productivity and trade rather than through a means of looting. God's teachings lend themselves far more to a very limited govenment rather than a statist arrangement and government welfare state.

I'm sure she'd really be at odds with Proverbs Proverbs 28:20 "A Faithful Man Will Abound With Blessings, But He Who Hastens To Be Rich Will Not Go Unpunished."[/quote]

I disagree. Success in a free market requires an entrepeneur to provide quality goods and/or services at fair prices. By doing so the entrepeneur gains a good reputation and customers and this is not done overnight. It is those entrepeneurs who want to make a quick buck who cut corners on quality or service who get the bad reputation and whereas they may initially make a quick buck in the long term consumers will go elsewhere and the greedy entrepeneur will go out of business. Even more to the point I would suggest that those who vote to create the government welfare state are guilty of trying to hasten to be rich themselves because they don't want to put in the work themselves or trade fairly with others to acquire the wealth needed for their health care, retirement etc.

The very fact alone she doesn't consider God to be part of reality is something that Christians have criticized other people over

Rand erred greatly in denying God but then she I think only saw Christianity in the corrupt state it existed in her native Russia and in certain denominations where Jesus' true teachings had been greatly changed by men. It was that same view of Christianity that put me off for so many years. I think if she had actually gotten to know the real Jesus she might have amended her Godless philosophy.

 

[Nurbz]

Jesus did not call for us to sacrifice our interests.

Oh yes he did. Our self-interest is what we are suppost to give up and serve him.

And Christ didn't found or endorse ANY form of economic model, demanded unconditional charity, to give of one's self above all and without any mention of payment or expectation of reward beyond their slavation. No pure capitalist or libertarian would expect to do anything without monetary compensation. Doing just that is immoral to Rand and objectivist philosophy, and Jesus would definately say THAT is the perversion.

Your portrayal of what God teaches us about the handling of money and government are I think in direct conflict with what God says in the Bible. Of all the economic systems devised by man I believe true free market capitalism is more compatible with God's teachings. It forces those who seek wealth to get it by productivity and trade rather than through a means of looting. God's teachings lend themselves far more to a very limited govenment rather than a statist arrangement and government welfare state.

Serving the poor is clearly a Christian command, but advocating justice for the poor and oppressed is also a biblical calling, as multiple passages suggest. The biblical prophets, in their condemnations of injustice to the poor, frequently follow those statements by requiring the king (the government) to act justly (a requirement that applied both to the kings of Israel and to foreign potentates). Jeremiah, speaking of King Josiah, wrote, "He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well" (22:16).

The apostles in the book of Acts had people sell their property, give it all to them and then distributed based on the the needs of the person

What would Rand say Acts 4:32-35 sounds like?
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

So again, Jesus and the bible never endorse or lay out any single modern economic system, because they use different parts of them

I disagree. Success in a free market requires an entrepeneur to provide quality goods and/or services at fair prices. By doing so the entrepeneur gains a good reputation and customers and this is not done overnight. It is those entrepeneurs who want to make a quick buck who cut corners on quality or service who get the bad reputation and whereas they may initially make a quick buck in the long term consumers will go elsewhere and the greedy entrepeneur will go out of business. Even more to the point I would suggest that those who vote to create the government welfare state are guilty of trying to hasten to be rich themselves because they don't want to put in the work themselves or trade fairly with others to acquire the wealth needed for their health care, retirement etc.

Focus and protection of profit is the worship of money, and sin, hence the Proverb. We are told not to worry for God will provide so long as we do what we are instructed.

Matt 6:31-32
So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.

Rand erred greatly in denying God but then she I think only saw Christianity in the corrupt state it existed in her native Russia and in certain denominations where Jesus' true teachings had been greatly changed by men. It was that same view of Christianity that put me off for so many years. I think if she had actually gotten to know the real Jesus she might have amended her Godless philosophy.

But yet while christians are determined to condemn "aggressive atheism" and those that promote it, They seem to defend hers because they like her politics and talk about "understanding"

Rand was well aware that one could not simultaneously follow her teachings and those of Jesus. In her letters, Rand writes about the "great, basic contradiction of Jesus." She holds him up as one of the first great teachers of individualism who taught "the salvation of one’s soul as one's first concern and highest goal." But when it came to the code of ethics, Rand wrote, Jesus gave people "a code of altruism, that is, a code which told them that in order to save one’s soul, one must love or help or live for others ... This is a contradiction that cannot be resolved."

Full statement here, everything is by her:

"There is a great, basic contradiction in the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was one of the first great teachers to proclaim the basic principle of individualism -- the inviolate sanctity of man's soul, and the salvation of one's soul as one's first concern and highest goal; this means -- one's ego and the integrity of one's ego. But when it came to the next question, a code of ethics to observe for the salvation of one's soul -- (this means: what must one do in actual practice in order to save one's soul?) -- Jesus (or perhaps His interpreters) gave men a code of altruism, that is, a code which told them that in order to save one's soul, one must love or help or live for others. This means, the subordination of one's soul (or ego) to the wishes, desires or needs of others, which means the subordination of one's soul to the souls of others.

This is a contradiction that cannot be resolved. This is why men have never succeeded in applying Christianity in practice, while they have preached it in theory for two thousand years. The reason of their failure was not men's natural depravity or hypocrisy, which is the superficial (and vicious) explanation usually given. The reason is that a contradiction cannot be made to work. That is why the history of Christianity has been a continuous civil war -- both literally (between sects and nations), and spiritually (within each man's soul)."
​

Rand was clear that her philosophy was incompatible with that of Jesus. For her, any system that that required one individual to live for others and follow anything beside their own self-interest was immoral. For Jesus, any system or behavior that does not take into account living for others and acting on their behalf is immoral. This is also because of the inability of christians to behave like Christ.

Christians have their faith preached to them by talk show hosts and politicians, which is why they're led into the contradictory objectivist philosophy.

To follow her and her vision, one must give up Christ and his cross.

 

[Umaro]

I disagree. Success in a free market requires an entrepeneur to provide quality goods and/or services at fair prices. By doing so the entrepeneur gains a good reputation and customers and this is not done overnight. It is those entrepeneurs who want to make a quick buck who cut corners on quality or service who get the bad reputation and whereas they may initially make a quick buck in the long term consumers will go elsewhere and the greedy entrepeneur will go out of business. Even more to the point I would suggest that those who vote to create the government welfare state are guilty of trying to hasten to be rich themselves because they don't want to put in the work themselves or trade fairly with others to acquire the wealth needed for their health care, retirement etc.

That's not necessarily true. The free market does not require anything to be fair. Take the Tesla/Edison rivalry. Tesla had the better product in every way, but Edison went around and killed a few goats with Tesla's system, ignoring the same thing happens with his own. The public ate it up and turned against Tesla. The man with the worse product got rich and the other was left to rot by the "free market."

Or look at sweat shops. Those are a prefect example of the free market, and I doubt very many people would agree they're "fair" in any sense of the word.

The problem with a pure free market is that it ignores outside factors in the choices people make.

 

[Grizzly]

Your portrayal of what God teaches us about the handling of money and government are I think in direct conflict with what God says in the Bible. Of all the economic systems devised by man I believe true free market capitalism is more compatible with God's teachings. It forces those who seek wealth to get it by productivity and trade rather than through a means of looting. God's teachings lend themselves far more to a very limited govenment rather than a statist arrangement and government welfare state.

It's been a really long time since I sat down and read the Gospels. A very long time. But I really don't remember Jesus encouraging those to "seek wealth by production and trade". In fact, I don't remember him encouraging anyone to seek wealth or material things. I remember one guy asking Jesus "What do I need to do to be perfect"? And I am pretty sure Jesus didn't respond with "Seek wealth through hard work and fair trade".

 

[GodGunsAndGlory]

Separation of Church and State... oh wait what?

The one who works his land will have plenty of food, but whoever chases fantasies will have his fill of poverty.

You all too conveniently left out that... why?

Oh yeah, my favorite:

In fact, when we were with you, this is what we commanded you: "If anyone isn't willing to work, he should not eat." For we hear that there are some among you who walk irresponsibly, not working at all, but interfering with the work [of others].

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Separation of Church and State... oh wait what?



You all too conveniently left out that... why?

Oh yeah, my favorite:2 Thessalonians 3:10-11
In fact, when we were with you, this is what we commanded you: "If anyone isn't willing to work, he should not eat." For we hear that there are some among you who walk irresponsibly, not working at all, but interfering with the work [of others].

I find it interesting how some conservatives raise this passage so frequently as though it speaks the same message to modern-day men as it did to the Thessalonians. Paul was addressing specific problem that his audience faced. Many of them, convinced that the Kingdom was imminent, chose to abstain from their work, and while they waited they relied on the generosity of others. Obviously, they were waiting for a long enough time for this to become particularly problematic, and so Paul gave his advice: keep waiting for the Kingdom's imminent arrival, but don't stop working in the mean-time.

 

[BondiHarry]

"Therefore do not worry, saying, ; What will we eat?' or 'What will we wear? For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. ( Matthew 6:31-33)

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!" ( Luke 12:22-24)

Nurbz, altruism is the Satanic corruption of the teachings of Jesus. It does sound much like them but its real purpose is not to benefit others but to make us feel guilty whenever we seek to do things that are indeed in our interests and approved by God. Men do have needs (food, clothing, shelter, work, companionship, education) and God wants these needs to be met. God is the one who enables us to acquire wealth (Deuteronomy 8:18) and who tells us how to use it (to provide for ourselves and our families ... indeed, failure to do so makes us worse than an unbeliever ... AND to help others). We do help others without concern for how it may benefit us, that it is pleasing to God is enough reason to do it plus since He is the creator and provider of wealth anyway, to those good stewards of His wealth using it as He directs, He will give more. The unfaithful steward who does not use such wealth that God gives him as God directs will have that little taken from him. One who has truly come to God will see an amazing change in how they desire to use the wealth that God gives them. Wasting money on wanton possession of things and the lusts of the flesh becomes undesirable and once those lusts are purged from our lives, it is amazing how much money we find we have in excess of what we need and even in hard times if we have little we are still happy to share with our brothers and sisters.

Rand was quite right to condemn that altruistic 'virtue' of self immolation ... we are made in the image of God and immolation of that image serves only the devil. Rand's teachings of limited government and ethical treatment of others (neither stealing from or defrauding them) is actually akin to what God teaches ... she just came to some correct teachings by the wrong means and I think that is why some Christians have respect for what she tried to do, certainly greater respect than for those professing Christians who ignore God's teachings on government, money and trade and seek to create a government system that endangers the social arrangements that God Himself created.

 

[Grizzly]

Nurbz, altruism is the Satanic corruption of the teachings of Jesus. <snip>

Thank you for providing something for my signature file.

 

[Received]

Nurbz, altruism is the Satanic corruption of the teachings of Jesus.

No, it's the clear Biblical injunction. Within about, say, three milliseconds of reading this I thought of this passage from James:

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -- James, 2:14-17 (ESV)​

And then, about five seconds after that, I conducted a Google search on helping people out according to the Bible, and came up with these:

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.
Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Prov. 22:9 He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.
Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.

Deut. 15:10. You shall give generously to [your poor brother], and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Jer. 7:5-7. "For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever."

Is. 58:10. "And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday. And the LORD will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; and you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail."

Luke 14:12-14. "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Luke 12:44. "Sell your possessions and give alms; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."
Is. 10:1-3. "Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"

Luke 1:52ff. [Mary's Magnificat.] "He has brought down rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were hungry. He has filled the hungry with good things; and sent away the rich empty-handed."

Ezek. 22:29,31. "The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice... Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."

Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.
1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Luke 6:33ff. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same."

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Mt. 6:2-4. "When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you."

Mt. 6:24. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money."

1 Tim. 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

Gal. 2:9ff. Recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John... gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. They only asked us to remember the poor-- the very thing I also was eager to do.

Lev. 19:15. "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly."

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need.

Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.

Eph. 4:28. Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.​

Among others. Altruism is very much a God-centered philosophy. You can't have love without altruism.

The passages you quoted above do have their place. They're natural anxiety-solutions given by God, and they essentially mean: don't worry, God will provide, even if you don't have food you'll be taken care of spiritually. Because that's really the most important thing, surely. But in *no* way *whatsoever* does this mean negating the calling of God (mentioned in the passages above) about our obligation to the poor.

 

[whatbogsends]

That's not necessarily true. The free market does not require anything to be fair. Take the Tesla/Edison rivalry. Tesla had the better product in every way, but Edison went around and killed a few goats with Tesla's system, ignoring the same thing happens with his own. The public ate it up and turned against Tesla. The man with the worse product got rich and the other was left to rot by the "free market."

Or look at sweat shops. Those are a prefect example of the free market, and I doubt very many people would agree they're "fair" in any sense of the word.

The problem with a pure free market is that it ignores outside factors in the choices people make.

You don't listen to the conservatives you argue against, do you? While i agree that sweat shops are not "fair", free-market conservatives make the claim that the sweat shop employees took the jobs voluntarily, and despite making pennies per week, the arrangement is "fair".

Good example with Tesla/Edison. Capitalism/the free market has shown again and again that it does not always produce an equitable result. Then again, no economic system does consistently.

 

[Received]

The grand inconsistency regarding sweatshop labor and conservatives is that so many conservatives advocate strong borders, strict requirements for citizenship, likely dislike of multiculturalism, have a strong sense of nationalism -- and support corporations who go to other countries and use citizens who will never likely become Americans for cheap labor, all for the sake of the bottom line. "Go America! We're number one! Eh, but I wouldn't worry about our citizens, who are losing jobs that our corporations could otherwise give them. They're not American enough, I guess."

 

[BondiHarry]

Among others. Altruism is very much a God-centered philosophy. You can't have love without altruism

Altruism, the denial of ones legitimate self-interest for the benefit of others is not what God teaches. We are to have compassion for those in need but one of the greatest services we can do for God and our fellow man is not be a consumer of more than we produce but a producer of more than we consume. You say "you can't have love without altruism" and that suggests you don't understand what God means by love our neighbor ... Romans 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" and also consider 1 Corinthians 13:3 "and though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (love), it profiteth me nothing"

Also, did you closely read the scripture you posted?

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.


Eph. 4:28. Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need

Lev. 19:15. "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly."

I have seen too many people try to use altruism to shame others into giving, sacrificing their very legitimate interests for the benefit of those in need, a need far too often caused by the disobedience to God of those in need and spending what little they did have on the lusts of the flesh. THAT is why I say it is a Satanic corruption of what Jesus taught. It is not unlike flailing the flesh to show ones piety, another absurd Satanic corruption of the truth.

 

[GQ Chris]

Well she wasn't perfect, but a helluva lot better than Karl Marx or Nietschze.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well she wasn't perfect, but a helluva lot better than Karl Marx or Nietschze.

Wasn't Rand a devout reader of Nietzsche?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Altruism, the denial of ones legitimate self-interest for the benefit of others is not what God teaches.

Interesting interpretation. And here I thought that God taught the denial of self-interest for the benefit of underserving others when he stretched out his arms on the cross. I must have been mistaken.