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Whose birthday is it? Jesus or Horus?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Eph4:26, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. Eph4:26

    Eph4:26 Regular Member

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    zeitgeistthemovie.com:

    "Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th [S14] [S15] of the virgin Isis-Meri.[S16] [S17] [S18] [D] [M] His birth was accompanied by a star in the east [S19], which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior [M] [S20] [S21] At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 [S22] [S23] he was baptized by a figure known as Anup [M] and thus began his ministry[S24] [M]. Horus had 12 disciples[S25] he traveled about with, performing miracles[S26] [S27]such as healing the sick[S28] and walking on water[S29]. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others[S30] [S31]. After being betrayed by Typhon[S32], Horus was crucified[S33] [S34], buried for 3 days[S35], and thus, resurrected.[S36] [S37] [M]."

    [S14] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 39-40
    [S15] - Septehenses, Clerk De.: Religions. of the Ancient. Greeks, p. 214.
    [S16] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 327-328
    [S17] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 40
    [S18] - Hall, Manly P.: The Secret Teachings of All Ages, 1928. Page 53-56 [Chapter 7: "Isis, the Virgin of the World"]
    [S19] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Page 12-13
    [S20] - Jackson, John: Christianity before Christ, AAP, p111-113
    [S21] -Walker, Barbara: Women's Encyplodia of Myths and Secrets, p. 748-754
    [S22] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 56-61
    [S23] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 613-620
    [S24] - Massey, Gerald. :Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 614
    [S25] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 600-607
    [S26] - Doane, Thomas.: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 256, 273
    [S27] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Pages 623-661
    [S28] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 626
    [S29] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 74-75
    [S30] - Acharya S.: The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press, 1999. Page 115
    [S31] - Massey, Gerald.: The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree, . Pages 43-47
    [S32] - Acharya S.: Suns of God , Adventures Unlimited Press, 2004. Page 93
    [S33] - Churchward, Albert: The Origin & Evolution of Religion, Page 135
    [S34] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 157
    [S35] - Massey, Gerald.: Ancient Egypt The Light of The World ,Cosimo Classics, Page 628-629
    [S36] - Doane, Thomas: Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, p. 222- 223
    [S37] - Bonswick, James: Egyption Belief and Modern Thought, p. 150-155, 178
     
  2. resistingrexmundi

    resistingrexmundi Newbie

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    There were several sites that dealt with this issue but this seemed the easiest to follow that I saw. This deals with the majority of your list. But if you are interested in researching this subject more deeply I suggest The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel.

    Strobel's interview with Edwin M. Yamauchi, PhD, who many claim is the world's leading scholar on the mystery religions, sheds a lot of light on this growing and debunked theory of Jesus' story being plagairized from pagan myths.
     
    Jesus & Horus Parallels - A Christian Response
     
    1) Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.

    Let’s take this one apart and deal with each separate issue:
    Horus’ mother was not a virgin. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage. Horus was, per the story, miraculously conceived. Seth had killed and dismembered Osiris, then Isis put her husband's dead body back together and had intercourse with it. In some versions, she used a hand-made phallus since she wasn't able to find that part of her husband. So while it was a miraculous conception, it was not a virgin birth.

    Horus was given three different birthdates in mythology, one of which does correspond to December 25th. But since Jesus wasn't, per the evidence, born on 12/25, this isn't a parallel.

    "Meri" (technically "Mr-ee") is the egyptian word for "beloved" and was apparently applied to Isis prior to Jesus' time, as a title, not as part of her name. But since there were probably thousands of women between Horus' time and Jesus' with a name or title that was a variation on "Mary", there's no real reason to suppose that Jesus' mother was named after Isis in particular. Even if, hypothetically, the Gospel authors themselves fabricated Jesus' mother and decided to name her "Mary", it's far more likely that they named her after other women from around their time named "Mary" than it is that they named her after "Isis-Meri"

    Horus was born in a swamp, not a cave/manger. Acharya's footnotes for this point only make the claim that Jesus was born in a cave, and say nothing about Horus being born in one.

    Horus' birth was not announced by a star in the east
    There were no "three wise men" at Horus’ birth, or at Jesus’ for that matter (the Bible never gives the number of wise men, and they showed up at Jesus’ home, not at the manger, probably when Jesus was a year or two old).

    Acharya's source for the last two claims appears to be Massey, who says "the Star in the East that arose to announce the birth of the babe (Jesus) was Orion, which is therefore called the star of Horus. That was once the star of the three kings; for the 'three kings' is still a name of three stars in Orion's belt . . . " Massey's apparently getting mixed up, and then the critics are misinterpreting it. Orion is not a star, but a constellation, of which there are three stars in a row making up the belt of Orion. However, there is no evidence that these three stars were called the "Three Kings" prior to Jesus' time, nor even prior to the 19th century, for that matter.

    And even if there is a specific star called 'the star of Horus', there's no legend stating that it announced Horus' birth (as the critics are claiming) or that the three stars in Orion's belt attended Horus' birth in any way.
     
    4) At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
    He never taught in any temple and was never baptized
     
    6) He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
    Horus had four disciples (called ‘Heru-Shemsu’). There’s another reference to sixteen followers, and a group of followers called ‘mesnui’ (blacksmiths) who join Horus in battle, but are never numbered. But there’s no reference to twelve followers or any of them being named "Anup" or "Aan".
     
    8) Horus walked on water.
    No, he did not.

    12) He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
    Horus was never crucified. There’s an unofficial story in which he dies and is cast in pieces into the water, then later fished out by a crocodile at Isis’ request. This unofficial story is the only one in which he dies at all.
     
    Encyclopedia Mythica: Horus
    Egyptian Mythology: Horus
    The Eye Of Horus
    Horus: He Who Is Above
    Tektonics: Horus, Isis, Osiris
    Egyptian Book of the Dead
     
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  3. Codger

    Codger Regular Member

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    According to the timeline engineered by Frank Klassen - Jesus was born on April first 5BC. He died on April 15th 29AD the year of the 29th Jubilee. Personally I like having Christmas in December and wouldn't want to change. Since his birthday is in dispute I wonder if it really matters when we celebrate it. Granted a lot of the trappings of the Holiday is of pagan origin - I don't see it as pagan, I think it is a wonderful time of year.
     
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  4. Eph4:26

    Eph4:26 Regular Member

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    resistingrexmundi . . . thank you for posting the information. With respects to the question asked in the title . . .

    I couldn't have said it better. :clap:
     
  5. Eph4:26

    Eph4:26 Regular Member

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    There is no dispute that Jesus was not born on December 25th. The dispute arises in even celebrating something that is pagan in origin and is repackaged by neo-paganism into a materialistic Holiday.
     
  6. Eph4:26

    Eph4:26 Regular Member

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    its not just the mythology of Horus, but the mythology of the Saturnalia,, Attus, Mithra, Krishna, or Dionysus. All of which were said to be born on December 25th. All of which have one thing in common, the zodiac.

    IMHO, The Roman Catholic Church leaders around the middle of the fourth century were very familiar with the mythologies\zodiac I've listed and amalgamated all of them to create a political entity to control the rabble and called their Savior Christ.
     
  7. resistingrexmundi

    resistingrexmundi Newbie

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    You are more than welcome. I will recommend that book by Lee Strobel again because it covers alot of this material. The link I gave in my original post also deals with a LOT of those pagan claims. More than I even realized were present.

    Yahweh bless you.
     
  8. Harry3142

    Harry3142 Regular Member

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    The opinion of conservative Christians is that Jesus was born shortly before Passover. The reason given for this is the description given in Luke of shepherds' being notified of his birth and getting to Bethlehem that same night. This normally would have been unlikely.

    There was only one time of year when shepherds were that close to a village or town. That was when they separated the unblemished lambs from their flocks and brought them close to Jerusalem so that they could be sold to the faithful. It's interesting that The Lamb of God was more-than-likely born at the same time of year that lambs were sacrificed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  9. If it's in a post on the internet, it must all be true.

    If you look around- apparently Christianity is based on about a dozen or two different religions. People consistantly try to make comprisons and in the end, none of them actually line up.

    Isis was not a virgin according to Egyptian mythology. She married her brother who father Horus. The misinformation is zeitgeist is mind-numbing.
     
  10. December 25 was the winter solstice. That is why Christmas is celebrated on December 25, because it was the darkest day of the year, representing the darkest time in history in which Christ came into the world.

    It is amazing just how much garbage is out there about December 25. People will believe just about anything, because it seems like an arbitrary date. The actual reason for the date is incredibly simple.
     
  11. Eph4:26

    Eph4:26 Regular Member

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    Agreed . . . but not for the reason you cited.

    When you mix that which is clean with dirt, you get dirt.

    Dead pagan gods celebrating birthdays on December 25th:

    Horus
    Saturnalia

    Attus
    Mithra
    Krishna
    Dionysus
    neo-paganism = secular = materialism

    Does Jesus want His Name associated with these dead pagan gods?

    NO.


    2 Cor. 6:16 what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

    17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord.

    "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;

    And I will welcome you.



     
  12. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor

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    For me, Dec. 25th is the day we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, a real person.

    Horus was a false god of the Egyptians, not real and you can choose to celebrate his birth then if you choose.
     
  13. Jase

    Jase New Member

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    Actually, December 25th was chosen as Christ's birthday, because the Roman Empire followed paganism, and in order for the Church to make the transition from paganism to Christianity "easier", they used pagan influence in creating Christian tradition. Zorostraism had a big influence on early Christianity. Jesus' resurrection is celebrated on Easter, because Easter is a pagan goddess.
     
  14. Almighty's humble servant

    Almighty's humble servant Fisher of men

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    Peace and blessings brothers and sisters,

    I have always thought that Jesus was born around the middle of September, based on the time Joseph was ordered to attend the census in Bethlehem.

    Either way, we don't hold any other God's above Jesus, except the Father in some unitarian sects.

    It is a mute point to argue the dates of our Beloved's birth. We should continue to celebrate His birth year round as we rely on Him year round.

    We trade gifts as a token of our celebration of rebirth from His birth. His birthday is each one of our rebirthdays. So pass the presents,

    To give to one another is to give to our Beloved!

    Praise and exalt Him above all forever!


    Ps,
    Merry Christmas
     
  15. Epiphoskei

    Epiphoskei Senior Veteran

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    This is simply untrue. It's a common myth, stemming from two serious errors: an uncritical accepance of early historians, and an uncritical acceptance of 19th century academic frauds.

    No ancient Egyptian myth gives a date for Horus's birth. All of the horus/Jesus parallelism you may find on the internet stems from some nineteenth century works written before Hieroglyphics were decyphered.

    Saturnalia isn't a god, it's a festival, and one that doesn't even encompass December 25. Moreover, inasmuch as one third of the Roman calander is a festival of some sort, it's not a big suprise that one happens to be near December 25th.

    Myths about Attus, Mithra, Dionysus, and Sol Invictus bear all the markings of being made up after Christian traditions had been well established to draw converts to Christianity back into paganism. Roman paganism had a serious crisis of identity in the last centuries before it was basically wiped out, and these kind of gimmicks appear to have been used as last ditch efforts to keep the temple cults going.

    And Krishna was supposedly born on 18 or 21 July, 3228 B.C.
     
  16. Epiphoskei

    Epiphoskei Senior Veteran

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    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In a total lack of evidence about when Christ was born, there's a 1/365.35 chance he was born on 12/25.
     
  17. Christmas has been celebrated since at least the second century. The Roman Empire did not even tolerate Christianity until the 4th Century. Christmas is still celebrated on other days, so it has nothing to do with the empire creating Christian tradition.

    Your information about Easter is completely and almost humorously off. Easter is a celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus which most of the Christian world calls Pascha. The day picked is totally unique- based on what Sunday follows most closely to a passover on a solar calender.

    Easter was not a pagan goddess in "Zorostraism" (I am assuming you mean Zoroastrianism). Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic religion. You are probably referring to the myth of "Ishtar = Easter".. since both are Persian and that is a commonly made claim. She was a goddess within anicent Babylonian/Assyrian religions. She has nothing to do with Easter, as a celebration or otherwise except people are easily confused by how Ishtar does look and sound like Easter.... except that the word Easter is only used in English and is based off a German word, "Oster". Ost means "East" in German, so I'll leave you to figure out the connection.

    When Christianity came to the German peoples, they called Pascha, a Christian celebration of the resurrection of Jesus "Easter/Oster".
     


  18. I think it is cool that you have a direct line to Jesus and can speak for Him.

    None of those dates has anything to do with 'birthdays' of Decemeber 25. December 25 was picked in the western Church as the day that word was made flesh because it fit well into the early liturgical calender.
     
  19. Jase

    Jase New Member

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    Sorry, you are incorrect. Most of Christian tradition was created from Roman, Germanic, and Scandinavian tradition. One theory as to the origin of December 25th being Christ's birthday is it is claimed he was conceived on March 25, around the time of the vernal equinox. 9 months later is December 25, and the fact that pagan fertility rituals were often associated with Christianity, it made sense to have it coincide with those pagan rituals during the vernal equinox. In addition, the Romans created Dies Natalis Soli Invicti, or the birthday of the unconquered sun. This was the Roman festival of Sol Invictus (and coincided with the winter solstice) where the roman gods were worshipped and included merrymaking and gift-giving. Prior to the 2nd Century Christians did not celebrate Jesus' birthday, because birthdays were of pagan origin. In the 4th century, Christians wanted to start celebrating Christ's death at the same time as the winter solstice/Sol Invictus - which was December 25th.

    The romans also had a tradition of bringing evergreens indoors, which later spread to Germanic mythology in the form of tree worship, and eventually spread around the world as the Christmas Tree.

    Pagan Scandinavia had a winter festival known as Yule, and due to Northern Europe becoming Christianized last, pagan festivals had a strong influence on Christmas. Beginning in 900 AD, Yule became synonymous with Christmas. Scandinavia still calls Christmas, Jul.

    Yes, the day moves in correlation to Passover. However, the monk Bede attributed the name Easter to the Germanic goddess Eostre. In celebration of that festival, Germanic culture included the use of Hares and eggs, which is where we get the tradition.

    I never said Easter had anything to do with Zoroastrianism. I said it is commonly believed, although yet unproven that Zoroastrianism had a strong influence on Judeo-Christianity.

    It is a well known fact that almost every Christian tradition, can be traced back to pagan origins.
     
  20. Jase

    Jase New Member

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    No, December 25 was picked because it was the day of the winter solstice and Sol Invictus in Rome.