Whom We Worship The Christ Or The Father

alex2165

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In this new thread I would like return to the previous topics concerning GOD Father and His Son, and the Old Covenant and the New Covenant as one inseparable Spiritual Covenant.

Traditional point of view always has been this that the GOD Father no longer matters, but only His Son Jesus Christ matters now, and some people declaring that they are not under the Father but under authority of Jesus Christ only.

Also many people still think that the Old Testament no longer valid, but only the New Testament we must to follow, which is completely wrong assumption which I would like to disprove here again, by presenting statements of Christ in which He stated that the Word that He brought to us in form of His Spiritual Gospel is the same Spiritual Word of His Father written in the Old Covenant of Moses.

Starting from the verse below, it relates to the previous theme I posted a while ago, “Jesus Christ is the First Creation of GOD”. And I would like to point that Jesus Christ on His Own does not have even life in Him, but the life that He has is given to Him by His Father, just like everything else He received from His Father.

John 6.57
57.”As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me.”

Teaching is not Mine but of My Father.

John 3.34
Words of John the Baptist about Jesus Christ.
34.”He Whom GOD has sent speaks the words of GOD, He gives the Spirit without measure.”

John 7.16
16.Jesus answered them and said, "My teachings is not Mine, but His Who sent Me

For those who think that they are not under Father’s authority but under Jesus Christ, here I presented statements of Christ that disapproves such thinking.
And this is really amazing statement of Christ, in which He specified that our faith actually do not relates completely to Him but actually belongs to His Father! And this is true, because everything Jesus Christ ever have said and done, all came from His Father through Him.

John 12.44-45.49-50
44.And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me but in Him Who sent Me.
45.And he who beholds Me beholds the One Who sent Me.

49.I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself Who sent Me has given Me Commandment what to say and what to speak.

Here Jesus spoke about Spiritual Commandments of His Father which give Eternal Life to those who obey them. And such words of Christ disprove another traditional dogma which said that Salvation comes only in believing in Jesus Christ, or through faith in Him, or through His Sacrifice on the cross, or because Salvation is a Free Gift given to all, and so on.

But the people who said these things never specified, explained, or defined the meaning and the essence of the Context, Conditions, and Obligations of these Banners, Slogans, and General Terms, in order to reveal what they really mean.
But according to the following statement of Christ, believing in Christ means to obey all Spiritual Commandments of His Father, which all together formed the Spiritual Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So Salvation not only comes through General Slogans, but also comes through the Spiritual Commandments of the Law of Moses.

50.And I know that His Commandment is Eternal Life, therefore the things I speak I speak just as the Father has told Me."

And here another interesting statement of Christ in which He said that He obeyed His Father’s Commandments. What kind of Commandments He obeyed, He obeyed all of them, commandments of the rituals and the Spiritual Commandments of His Laws.

John 15.10
10.”If you keep My Commandments you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's Commandments and abide in His love.”

John 14.24
24.”He who does not love Me, does not keep My words, and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me

And this verse below particularly reveals the core meaning of the Gospel of Christ, indicating that the Gospel of Christ directly came from the Father in form of the Spiritual Commandments of the Law of Moses.

John 17.8
8.”The Words which You gave Me I have given to them and they received them, and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.”

No one comes to the Father but though Me.

And this passage of the Bible also disproves another false dogma which said that our finals destination is to come to Jesus Christ, but this is only partially true, but our true final destination is the Father of Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ Himself stated here.

John 14.6
6.Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me

All of those whom Jesus Christ ever had and all who following Him, all have been selectively drawn to Him by His Father.
From this statement we can see that absolutely everything depends on the Father, even those whom Jesus had, have been selected and given to Him by His Father.

John 6.44
44.”No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him (verse 65), and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Fruits (Works) of our Faith in GOD.

John 15.16
16.”You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that you fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.”

So the point is that the Father of Christ plays essential role in everything, including everything that Christ ever said or done.

And those who said that they are under the authority of Christ and not the Father reveal that they did not acknowledge the Father of Jesus Christ and His Laws.

Whoever does not recognize One of Them does not recognize and the Other One. GOD Father and Jesus Christ Are One GOD and cannot be separated. We have to accept Them Both.

One GOD means one Law, one Faith, and one Love, and one Salvation, and there is no any other.

John 14.7-9
7.If you had known Me you would have known My Father also, from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8.Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9.Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?
 

Norah63

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Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers.
Suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the power the kingdom and the glory, forever and ever.
in Jesus name, Amen.

Family is God's plan, not mans.
 
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Steeno7

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The "new covenant" is not the "old covenant" continued, renewed, reconstituted, refurbished, or reformed. Christianity is not Judaism light nor is it an extension of Judaism. Christianity is something entirely new; the new and Living way of the new covenant in the newness of life with Jesus Christ.

And there is no traditional view within Christianity such as you have premised that, "the GOD Father no longer matters, but only His Son Jesus Christ matters now, and some people declaring that they are not under the Father but under authority of Jesus Christ only." Sounds like something you just made up.
 
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1watchman

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Perhaps this letter to one will add to understanding the Trinity:

Trying To Talk To God
Letter To One Who Feels God Is Not Answering

Hello friend.
You seem to feel your search for the Lord is not producing results. It may be a common problem which we see in the approaches many people use.

I have learned in many years of Bible study and communion with the Lord, much about the nature of God. He must not be challenged; we must not try to set the terms of our coming to God; we must not try to intellectualize or reason our way into God's graces. Many sincere seekers unwittingly are doing these things. We need to realize and own that our knowledge of God and His truth, and our religious efforts, is not salvation for our soul.

We need to humble ourselves greatly, and give God our undivided attention:
1) Go into your "closet" --private place (see Mt. 6:6-7) and humbly speak to our Creator-God, confessing your life of personal sin and failure (which is true of all mankind –Rom. 3:19-24);

2) Honestly and sincerely thank God-the Father for sending His beloved Son --the Lord Jesus Christ, to suffer and die for your sins (1 Jn. 4:13-15);

3) Receive the Lord Jesus into your heart by pleading your honest desire to have Him as your Savior and Lord of your life (note John 14 and the verses at 1 Jn. 5:10-12). One must be honest and sincere in this, for God knows our heart and the truth of the matter;

4) Give the Lord Jesus your unconditional desire of surrender and devotion to Him as your Lord, Savior, and best friend, and thank Him for His promise to come unto you;

5) One needs to appreciate that our triune God is manifest in three ways --the Godhead. Jehovah-God is the Creator/Father and mind of the Godhead; Jesus, the Christ-God is our Savior and mediator on earth and our Lord; Holy Spirit-God is the power, energy, and silent working of the Godhead in the saints as temples (note 1 Cor. 3:16-17, etc.).

We are enjoined to speak to our Father in the Name of our Redeemer-Jesus, and to Jesus as our Lord concerning appropriate things. We are not given to speak to the Spirit --see John 14:23, which shows the presence of the Godhead by the Spirit; and John 16:7-11.

One can then go forth happily knowing God will come into your life and seal you by His Holy Spirit as a "child of God". You can and should then rest on the assurance that you have done all that God requires for salvation (read also Rom.10:1-10 for the summation); and continue to thank Him daily for coming into your life (and rest on that), and study His Word in the Gospels and the Epistles privately every day. Trust God in all things!
- Sincerely in Christ forever, RLD
 
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BryanW92

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Traditional point of view always has been this that the GOD Father no longer matters, but only His Son Jesus Christ matters now, and some people declaring that they are not under the Father but under authority of Jesus Christ only.
....
And those who said that they are under the authority of Christ and not the Father reveal that they did not acknowledge the Father of Jesus Christ and His Laws.

There might be some people who think like this, but there is no "tradition" like you describe here.

Even when people say that they are under the authority of Christ, they are not excluding the Father. As members of the holy priesthood of all believers, Jesus is our immediate superior and the Father is the ruler of all.
 
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alex2165

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I agree with your last comment, but not with your first line there you wrote, “There might be some people who think like this, but there is no "tradition" like you describe here.”

Did you read posts above you before you wrote you post? Do you know how many people actually think this way that the Father GOD means nothing anymore?

And this is despite the fact that John in his entire Evangeline exclusively like no one else in entire Bible pointed and specified the significance of GOD Father in absolutely everything, which Jesus Christ Himself constantly taught His disciples too, presenting His Father as a Supreme Being in absolutely everything, and as the major Player, Ruler, and the Leader over all His creations, included His Son Jesus Christ.

And of course all the verses that I presented in my thread have been ignored, and some people given me clichés, dogmas, and traditional slogans of denomination of their church and nothing else.

Unfortunately leaders of the churches today following the same steps as the leaders of the synagogues in pre-Christian times and during the Christ time, replacing the Word of GOD with their own teachings, dogmas, slogans, and traditions, and redirecting people by this from GOD and not to GOD.
(Isaiah 29.13) (Matthew 15.9) (Mark 7.6-9.13) (Acts 4.19, 5.29) (Colossians 2.20-22) (Titus 1.14).

And such narrow minded view is very popular today as it was in the days of old, and this is the issue that I am arguing against, in order that someone will listen, understand it, and accept the GOD Father as a Supreme Being over everything and over everybody.
 
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BryanW92

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I agree with your last comment, but not with your first line there you wrote, “There might be some people who think like this, but there is no "tradition" like you describe here.”

Did you read posts above you before you wrote you post? Do you know how many people actually think this way that the Father GOD means nothing anymore?


No, I don't know how many. Do you? I do know that I do not know a single professing and active Christian who believes that the Father is nothing. In fact, the Apostles Creed begins with "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, etc"

I did read all the posts and everyone seems to be in agreement. Or, are you saying that the idea of the Trinity is wrong and that the Father is the only God, superior to Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

And of course all the verses that I presented in my thread have been ignored, and some people given me clichés, dogmas, and traditional slogans of denomination of their church and nothing else.

Its easy to dismiss those you disagree with by simply calling everything they say a cliché or a slogan. You are making a claim that the Father is God. Everyone here agrees. I am disagreeing with your assertion that you are bringing truth to a bunch of neo-pagans who don't know God the Father and acknowledge his supremacy over the universe.
 
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Neogaia777

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It's not Christ "or" the Father, but it's Christ "and" the Father, for they are one, along with the Holy Spirit, who is also an "and" and not an "or" because the three are one...

Isaiah says (speaks of) a son being born to line of kings and princes in Israel who's name would be called Emmanuel (God with us) but, no son was born to the line of Israel after that prophecy, bearing that name, "It" (for lack of a better term) It is said to be Jesus...

It is also said that there will be a son, born of a lineage of the house of Israel, a human baby boy, who would grow up and be called "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father"...

How do we account for this?

God Bless!
 
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alex2165

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I do not saying that the idea of Trinity is wrong, and I do not saying that only the Father matters, what I saying is this that the Father, and His Son, and Their Holy Spirit is One United GOD no matter in which out of these three forms They presenting Himself to us.

But between Them also exists a certain hierarchy, indicating that the Father in Heaven, as well as any father on Earth, always higher than His Son. I see it as GOD’S Family, the Father and the Son, and as the Family, the Father always higher than Son.

But as GODS, the Father and the Son Are equal in Their power, because Father has given everything to His Son included His absolute powers, and the Son can do everything just like His Father.

But the people who deny this and who said that the Father no longer matters, and they no longer under the Father but only under Christ’s authority, with this people I am arguing.

And the Steeno7 wrote something that I took as the denial of the Father. He wrote:

“The "new covenant" is not the "old covenant" continued, renewed, reconstituted, refurbished, or reformed. Christianity is not Judaism light nor is it an extension of Judaism. Christianity is something entirely new; the new and Living way of the new covenant in the newness of life with Jesus Christ.”

But he also wrote that there is no such tradition in Christianity that denies the Father, and I agree with him on that point.

But the problem is this that the Old Covenant of GOD without its rituals indeed is the New Covenant of Christ, which known to us as the Gospel of Christ, and by denying the Spiritual Commandments of the Old Covenant of GOD we also deny and Him Who created it in the first place, and which Jesus Christ fulfill Himself and introduced to us.

Steeno7 wrote that the Old Covenant is not continuation of the New Covenant, and the New Covenant does not relate in any way to the Old, in his point of view the Old Covenant it’s just Judaism.

So I would like to ask all of you and particularly Steeno7 a favor, to show me at least one statement of Christ which is completely new and does not written in the Old Covenant or relate to it.

Concerning the Christians (or may be I am wrong, may they are not Christians as I thought) who denying the Father, it is still hard to believe for me that none of you ever encounter a single Christian who denies the Father GOD and the entire Old Covenant as well.

I will try to go back to the forums where I found such people, and if I find them, I hope, I will give you a link, so may be you will talk to them and persuade them to change their point of view.
 
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Steeno7

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I do not saying that the idea of Trinity is wrong, and I do not saying that only the Father matters, what I saying is this that the Father, and His Son, and Their Holy Spirit is One United GOD no matter in which out of these three forms They presenting Himself to us.


But between Them also exists a certain hierarchy, indicating that the Father in Heaven, as well as any father on Earth, always higher than His Son. I see it as GOD’S Family, the Father and the Son, and as the Family, the Father always higher than Son.

There is One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each possess the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence. However, the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father.

But as GODS, the Father and the Son Are equal in Their power, because Father has given everything to His Son included His absolute powers, and the Son can do everything just like His Father.

They are not "Gods", they are God. God is One.


But the people who deny this and who said that the Father no longer matters, and they no longer under the Father but only under Christ’s authority, with this people I am arguing.

Christians are the ones who uphold the trinitarian nature of God. We are not the ones who deny that or who say that the Father no longer matters.


And the Steeno7 wrote something that I took as the denial of the Father. He wrote:

“The "new covenant" is not the "old covenant" continued, renewed, reconstituted, refurbished, or reformed. Christianity is not Judaism light nor is it an extension of Judaism. Christianity is something entirely new; the new and Living way of the new covenant in the newness of life with Jesus Christ.”

I stated the obvious truth that the new covenant is, in fact, new. How you arrived at me denying the Father is anybodies guess.


But he also wrote that there is no such tradition in Christianity that denies the Father, and I agree with him on that point.

Then you agree that whoever you are referencing in the OP are not Christians. You would have saved yourself and others a lot of trouble had you simply stated that up front.


But the problem is this that the Old Covenant of GOD without its rituals indeed is the New Covenant of Christ, which known to us as the Gospel of Christ, and by denying the Spiritual Commandments of the Old Covenant of GOD we also deny and Him Who created it in the first place, and which Jesus Christ fulfill Himself and introduced to us.

There is no such thing as the Old Covenant of God without its rituals. So the rest is pretty much meaningless.




Steeno7 wrote that the Old Covenant is not continuation of the New Covenant, and the New Covenant does not relate in any way to the Old, in his point of view the Old Covenant it’s just Judaism.

No, I wrote that the new covenant is not a continuation of the old. You got that backwards. Do you deny that Judaism is the religion man built around the old covenant of law?


So I would like to ask all of you and particularly Steeno7 a favor, to show me at least one statement of Christ which is completely new and does not written in the Old Covenant or relate to it.

I fail to see how it is relevant but....

"Neither do I condemn you." - Jesus Christ



Concerning the Christians (or may be I am wrong, may they are not Christians as I thought) who denying the Father, it is still hard to believe for me that none of you ever encounter a single Christian who denies the Father GOD and the entire Old Covenant as well.

I have never met a Christian who denies the Father. I have met many Christians with really messed up beliefs about the nature of God. Neither have I met a Christian who denies the Old Covenant. Obviously it existed. Obviously it had a purpose that it served.
 
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BryanW92

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Concerning the Christians (or may be I am wrong, may they are not Christians as I thought) who denying the Father, it is still hard to believe for me that none of you ever encounter a single Christian who denies the Father GOD and the entire Old Covenant as well.

I will try to go back to the forums where I found such people, and if I find them, I hope, I will give you a link, so may be you will talk to them and persuade them to change their point of view.


I know some Christians who believe that the Old Covenant/Testament has been replaced, but not a single one that denies the Father's existence or supremacy within the Trinity. You may have stumbled upon some very unorthodox Christians, like the Jesus Christians cult. They only believe in the words spoken by Jesus and they believe those words with a kind of fanaticism that makes Christianity impossible.
 
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alex2165

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You may be right, while I have no clues who are the Jesus Christians cult, I assume that I actually conversed with some of them without know it.

I also would like explain myself concerning clichés and slogans I mentioned earlier, I did not meant this forum but other forums on which I posted similar post. I am sorry, it is my weird writing and poor handling of English.

Each time I post something concerning the Father GOD indicating His importance for the for Christians, I immediately received in response verses quoting only Christ, concerning His Holy Deity and all His names, statutes, and ranks as He is mentioned in the Bible, and most often such posts have no comments, which I interpreted and understood that they signifying only Christ as a GOD and not His Father.

I do not deny in any way any of the Christ’s statutes and ranks as a GOD, as a Savior, as our Shepherd, as our King, and so on, but I only want to counterbalance people’s quotes concerning only Christ with my posts and my answers concerning His Heavenly Father.

I want to signify importance of His Father as an absolute Supreme Being, and the Christ as His Son Who Are Second to Him, because without Father would be no Son.

And when we worship and serve the Christ, we do not do it for the Christ alone, but also and for His Father. We have to accept Them Both as One GOD. But we also have to remember that the Father always higher than His Son.

In the Book of John starting about from the third chapter and all the way down, practically in every chapter of his Book he quoted Jesus Christ saying that His Father has sent Him, and His Father will was to crucify Him, and that Christ did not spoke from Himself but all Words that Christ ever spoke came from His Father, and that Christ can do nothing on His Own accord without His Father, and that Christ’s works are the works of His Father, and on and on.

And this is why I call some people’s quotes about Christ as clichés and slogans, because they became as such when the people using them for expressing only one sided point of view and completely ignoring the other side.
 
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BryanW92

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So I would like to ask all of you and particularly Steeno7 a favor, to show me at least one statement of Christ which is completely new and does not written in the Old Covenant or relate to it.

Each time I post something concerning the Father GOD indicating His importance for the for Christians, I immediately received in response verses quoting only Christ, concerning His Holy Deity and all His names, statutes, and ranks as He is mentioned in the Bible, and most often such posts have no comments, which I interpreted and understood that they signifying only Christ as a GOD and not His Father.

Perhaps your problem is the language barrier. As you point out in the first quote, everything about Jesus points back to the Old Testament. We Christians quote Jesus a lot more than we quote the OT because:

1) We know the NT better.
2) The NT is more quotable.
3) Jesus is our Lord and Savior. We are bound to him through his blood. We are bound to the Father too, but our relationship with Jesus is more intimate.

We don't ignore the Father and we certainly don't take away any of his glory, but Christians just know the Trinitarian God better through the incarnation of Jesus Christ. This is as it should be.
 
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BryanW92

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And this is why I call some people’s quotes about Christ as clichés and slogans, because they became as such when the people using them for expressing only one sided point of view and completely ignoring the other side.

But there is no "other side". There is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We know the NT more than the OT because we read it more and search for our answers there. So it gets quoted more.
 
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Neogaia777

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Then, Why is Jesus referred to as Imannuel and why is it that Imannuel is said to carry the title "Eternal Father"? (Isiah 9:6)

Or why does it say also that Jesus said "the Father is greater than I am" (John 14:28)

And why is it that these two verses seem to contradict each other?

In your opinion, is Jesus Imannuel?

God Bless!
 
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Steeno7

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You may be right, while I have no clues who are the Jesus Christians cult, I assume that I actually conversed with some of them without know it.

I also would like explain myself concerning clichés and slogans I mentioned earlier, I did not meant this forum but other forums on which I posted similar post. I am sorry, it is my weird writing and poor handling of English.

Each time I post something concerning the Father GOD indicating His importance for the for Christians, I immediately received in response verses quoting only Christ, concerning His Holy Deity and all His names, statutes, and ranks as He is mentioned in the Bible, and most often such posts have no comments, which I interpreted and understood that they signifying only Christ as a GOD and not His Father.

I do not deny in any way any of the Christ’s statutes and ranks as a GOD, as a Savior, as our Shepherd, as our King, and so on, but I only want to counterbalance people’s quotes concerning only Christ with my posts and my answers concerning His Heavenly Father.

I want to signify importance of His Father as an absolute Supreme Being, and the Christ as His Son Who Are Second to Him, because without Father would be no Son.

And when we worship and serve the Christ, we do not do it for the Christ alone, but also and for His Father. We have to accept Them Both as One GOD. But we also have to remember that the Father always higher than His Son.

In the Book of John starting about from the third chapter and all the way down, practically in every chapter of his Book he quoted Jesus Christ saying that His Father has sent Him, and His Father will was to crucify Him, and that Christ did not spoke from Himself but all Words that Christ ever spoke came from His Father, and that Christ can do nothing on His Own accord without His Father, and that Christ’s works are the works of His Father, and on and on.

And this is why I call some people’s quotes about Christ as clichés and slogans, because they became as such when the people using them for expressing only one sided point of view and completely ignoring the other side.

There is One true and living God - indivisible, infinite; co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existing in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each possess the same essence and attributes of deity; deserving our obedience and reverence. However, the Father is not the Spirit; the Spirit is not the Son; and the Son is not the Father.
 
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peterandrewj

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But the problem is this that the Old Covenant of GOD without its rituals indeed is the New Covenant of Christ, which known to us as the Gospel of Christ, and by denying the Spiritual Commandments of the Old Covenant of GOD we also deny and Him Who created it in the first place, and which Jesus Christ fulfill Himself and introduced to us.

In the old covenant the law was written on stone. In the new covenant it is written on the heart.
:thumbsup:
 
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alex2165

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I agree with you guys in everything you wrote, and I can see that none of you denying the importance of the Father, but you just more concentrating on Jesus Christ because He is the Gate to the Father, and through Whom by the mercy of the Almighty we eventually will come to Him, and this is good.

May be I pay too much attention to those whose mind is completely close, and wasting my time by arguing with them without any positive result. Surely I will change this.

GOD blesses you all.

Alex
 
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