Who yokes with who?

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gluadys

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Willtor said:
I suspect that nature is seamless. Apart from the miraculous, I suspect that God has not "left holes" in nature where nature is unable to function. I believe that nature moves itself as God moves it, and I disbelieve a dualism that either gives nature autonomy or makes God into a puppeteer. If nature includes natural mutation, natural crossover, and natural selection, then I believe that our acknowledgment of this is glorifying to God.

I think this comes close to a credo for TE. I especially like this bit: "I disbelieve a dualism that either gives nature autonomy or makes God into a puppeteer."
 
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Lilandra

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Pats said:
Please explain how ignoring questions about God by TEs is related to some YECs coming accross preposterous looking.

I don't ignore questions about God. I have gotten into heated discussions with more than one nonbeliever at atime about God.

I was referring to when a TE corrects a YEC on science in support of a nonbeliever. The purpose is to increase understanding and not make Christianity as awhole look foolish.

Another important point here, what looks and sounds preposterous is truly in the ear of the listener. To some, Jesus resurecting from the dead, or being the only begotten son of God is preposterous. In that case, I'm not affraid to look preposterous.

Oh I look preposterous to nonbelievers for having faith. But to state certain things about science that are kbown to be untrue is another matter entirely.

I'm equally unafraid to consider the possibility that the Creation was a miraculous event for wich there can be no scientific verification. I don't know for sure, I wasn't there.
You're appealing to magic here to support an unfounded assertion about the universe. No kind of miracle would create the universe in under 10,000 years but then leave evidence that the earth is older.


Any person of any theology pronouncing to others that they are going to Hell is not evangilism, and it's not even close to what I'm susggesting as whitnessing opportunities.
We agree on this.

The thing is, if/when a YECist said something like, the world is 6,000 yrs old or throw the Bible out, that's where a TE could explain to the nonbeliever that not all Christians feel that way and why.
I do this all the time. My faith icon is prominent whenever I don't explicitly state that Christians don't all feel that way.

This is my opinion of sharing faith in a forum like that. If you don't share it, then you're better off not doing it. I'm just surprised by the amount of people who apparently seem they'd rather not do it at all.

The way that you share faith and TEs share faith. It may seem to you as though they aren't sharing, but they are.

Agreed. This is no way to talk to people.
I am glad you feel that way.

Jesus came for the lost, not for the believer but for the nonbeliever. Hopefully, most Christians understand that.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting. :thumbsup:
 
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Lilandra

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own what you say:

you said:
it's not a 4 winged fly from a fish...it's a mutated fly from a ..... fly
it's not a bacteria from a turtle...it's a bacteria mutated into a .... bacteria
it's not a soybean from a turnip....it's a soybean genetically altered into a ....soybean plant...
WOW!!!!

You said that evolution is a fly turning into a fish, a bacteria from a turtle and a soybean from a turnip.

That is patently false.

Gwenyfur said:
there we go twisting words...

surely you can understand a bloody concept! and for once stay on subject and not sarcastically twist every bloody line you read to yoru own ends!

The concept of a species giving offspring that are of a difference species *IS* included in that wiki definition of evolution...

So are you really going to sit there and type another lie about your theory's definition?
 
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vossler

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Pats said:
I have a friend who is very scientifically minded but open to the existance of an undefined god. I feel illequiped to whitness much further to him. I think he'd benefit a great deal from talking with a TEist. This was part of the original conversation. I would rather see him become a brother in Christ with a different theology than mine, than remain a nonbeliever.
I would disagree with this approach. No where in Scripture are we called to send someone to another, especially someone with a different theology, in order that they may become Christians. It isn't our job to 'convince' someone scientifically or any other way of the virtues of Christianity, but only to preach the Word. The rest is the Holy Spirit's job.
 
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vossler

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consideringlily said:
God says my ways are not your ways. If the universe is telling a story that it is billions of years old it is because God created it that way.
The story we're told to preach is the Word. Nothing more, nothing less!

consideringlily said:
St Augustine said that many nonbelievers are versed in the ways of the universe. For a believer to tell them something like the universe is 10,000 year old discredits Christianity.
I don't know how you can say that a Christian stating the universe to be less than 10,000 years old in some way discredits Christianity. It's the exact opposite! Only an earth and universe of less than 10,000 years can be biblically supported.
 
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Lilandra

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vossler said:
The story we're told to preach is the Word. Nothing more, nothing less!
Do you eat pork, shellfish, drink milk with a ham and cheese sandwich?

the only absolute word for a Christian is what is in the Nicene Creed.
vossler said:
I don't know how you can say that a Christian stating the universe to be less than 10,000 years old in some way discredits Christianity. It's the exact opposite! Only an earth and universe of less than 10,000 years can be biblically supported.
According to your interpretation.
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
I would disagree with this approach. No where in Scripture are we called to send someone to another, especially someone with a different theology, in order that they may become Christians.

We are called to bring others to Christ... but sometimes we are not up to the task. Wouldn't common sense tell us that we should approach people on a level they are familiar with?

Pats said that this particular person has a strong background in science. Pats has already admitted that she does not. Since Pats doesn't have the backgound to effectively witness to this person, wouldn't the prudent course of action to be to seek help from someone who does?


It isn't our job to 'convince' someone scientifically or any other way of the virtues of Christianity, but only to preach the Word. The rest is the Holy Spirit's job.

Nevertheless, a discussion of science would make for some good common ground with which to begin a discussion. Someone with a stronger background in science could defend the faith better than someone who doesn't and leave Pat's friend more open and receptive to the Holy Spirit.

I do agree, only the Holy Spirt can "convince" someone, but we still have a duty to prepare a person for Him, as best as we can.
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
I don't know how you can say that a Christian stating the universe to be less than 10,000 years old in some way discredits Christianity.

Because it's not?
Because zealous insistance that black is white and day is night might turn away more people than it draws?

It's the exact opposite! Only an earth and universe of less than 10,000 years can be biblically supported.

You mean literally supported.
 
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vossler

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The Lady Kate said:
We are called to bring others to Christ... but sometimes we are not up to the task.
We don't bring anyone to Christ, only the God the Father does!
The Lady Kate said:
Wouldn't common sense tell us that we should approach people on a level they are familiar with?

Pats said that this particular person has a strong background in science. Pats has already admitted that she does not. Since Pats doesn't have the backgound to effectively witness to this person, wouldn't the prudent course of action to be to seek help from someone who does?
If we're not up to the task spiritually that's one point, but not to be up to the task scientifically is quite another.

This line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me; are you saying that if I am a teacher then only a fellow teacher can reach me for Christ? Help me to understand where you get the idea that one should be of a similar background in order to effectively preach the Gospel!
The Lady Kate said:
I do agree, only the Holy Spirit can "convince" someone, but we still have a duty to prepare a person for Him, as best as we can.
The preparation consists of telling him the Good News, no other requirements exist.
The Lady Kate said:
Because it's not?
Because zealous insistance that black is white and day is night might turn away more people than it draws?
Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up!

The Lady Kate said:
You mean literally supported.
I mean it is the only one that can be supported without having to read into, change, or otherwise manipulate the Scriptures.
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
If we're not up to the task spiritually that's one point, but not to be up to the task scientifically is quite another.

This line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me; are you saying that if I am a teacher then only a fellow teacher can reach me for Christ?

Where did I say "only"? But you must admit that a fellow teacher would probably have a much easier time of it than someone who had never set foot in a classroom... having a common background helps when communicating anything, including and especially the Gospel.

Help me to understand where you get the idea that one should be of a similar background in order to effectively preach the Gospel!

In order to more effectively preach the gospel... does that help?

Please tell me it makes sense to witness to people in terms they can understand.

The preparation consists of telling him the Good News, no other requirements exist.

Agreed... which is why I never said anything else was required... you did.

All I meant to say was that it would be hard for you to communicate with someone whose discourse is going to go over your head, so what reason exists to not seek assistance from others more in the know?

If I was going to do missionary work on the island of Bora Bora, wouldn't it help to know the language, customs, and history? And if I didn't, wouldn't it help to find someone who did?

I mean it is the only one that can be supported without having to read into, change, or otherwise manipulate the Scriptures.

You mean reinterpret the scriptures.
 
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vossler

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The Lady Kate said:
Where did I say "only"? But you must admit that a fellow teacher would probably have a much easier time of it than someone who had never set foot in a classroom... having a common background helps when communicating anything, including and especially the Gospel.
Well then I suppose most preachers are out of their element. :scratch:
The Lady Kate said:
In order to more effectively preach the gospel... does that help?
No it doesn't really for me, but if it does for you well then I suppose that's good.
The Lady Kate said:
Please tell me it makes sense to witness to people in terms they can understand.
The 'terms' are the gospel and all of us should be able to transmit them without science or anything else added.
The Lady Kate said:
All I meant to say was that it would be hard for you to communicate with someone whose discourse is going to go over your head, so what reason exists to not seek assistance from others more in the know?

If I was going to do missionary work on the island of Bora Bora, wouldn't it help to know the language, customs, and history? And if I didn't, wouldn't it help to find someone who did?
More in the know of what? Obviously if someone doesn't know the language, customs and history of another nation we would be well served with some help. Are you saying that non-believers should be treated the same?
 
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KerrMetric

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The message of the Gospel is going to not get a good hearing if the person delivering it is telling the geology student they are conversing with that geology is bunk and a Global Flood happened a few thousand years ago. That is a fact. The Gospel is going to be lumped with UFOlogy and Crop Circles.
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
Well then I suppose most preachers are out of their element. :scratch:

No, they are in their element... at the pulpit. For the most part, preachers don't go door-to-door, rather, they speak before gatherings of people already receptive to the message.


No it doesn't really for me, but if it does for you well then I suppose that's good.
The 'terms' are the gospel and all of us should be able to transmit them without science or anything else added.

If we were all gifted orators capable of preaching the pure Gospel without any outside frame of reference, then this would be true.

However, God in His wisdom did not make us all as gifted speakers as this. If I can somehow use science, literature, art, history, music, or last night's episode of The Daily Show as a vehicle for helping someone understand a little more about my faith, why should I not use them?

Is the Gospel somehow tainted because I used something worldly to help people understand it?


More in the know of what? Obviously if someone doesn't know the language, customs and history of another nation we would be well served with some help. Are you saying that non-believers should be treated the same?

If the nonbeliever comes from a different background or different way of thinking, absolutely!

If I'm going to try to communicate a message of "This is what being a Christian has done for me, and what I believe it can do for you," shouldn't I know a little more about that person... who they are, where they come from, what they believe in?

Wouldn't it be presumptuous of me not to?
 
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The Lady Kate

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KerrMetric said:
The message of the Gospel is going to not get a good hearing if the person delivering it is telling the geology student they are conversing with that geology is bunk and a Global Flood happened a few thousand years ago. That is a fact. The Gospel is going to be lumped with UFOlogy and Crop Circles.

How true it is...

Saint Augustine said:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

I always loved this quote.
 
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vossler

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The Lady Kate said:
No, they are in their element... at the pulpit. For the most part, preachers don't go door-to-door, rather, they speak before gatherings of people already receptive to the message.

If we were all gifted orators capable of preaching the pure Gospel without any outside frame of reference, then this would be true.

However, God in His wisdom did not make us all as gifted speakers as this. If I can somehow use science, literature, art, history, music, or last night's episode of The Daily Show as a vehicle for helping someone understand a little more about my faith, why should I not use them?

Is the Gospel somehow tainted because I used something worldly to help people understand it?

If the nonbeliever comes from a different background or different way of thinking, absolutely!

If I'm going to try to communicate a message of "This is what being a Christian has done for me, and what I believe it can do for you," shouldn't I know a little more about that person... who they are, where they come from, what they believe in?

Wouldn't it be presumptuous of me not to?
We obviously have two completely different views of theology and most everything else.

What I don't understand is nothing ever comes from our discussions, yet you continue to initiate them. Why?
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
We obviously have two completely different views of theology and most everything else.

Obviously.

What I don't understand is nothing ever comes from our discussions, yet you continue to initiate them. Why?

Why not? When you make a statement on these boards, am I not allowed to respond to it?

And I would hardly say that "nothing" ever comes from these discussions... I'm sure the lurkers and other posters have picked up something interesting from our little exchange.
 
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vossler

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The Lady Kate said:
Why not? When you make a statement on these boards, am I not allowed to respond to it?
Sure, you're free to respond as you see fit. I just didn't see how it benefited anyone. I certainly don't glean anything from our circular discussions. It certainly isn't time well spent.

The Lady Kate said:
And I would hardly say that "nothing" ever comes from these discussions... I'm sure the lurkers and other posters have picked up something interesting from our little exchange.
Whatever smidgen or tidbit of information that someone could glean from it can't hardly be worth the effort that goes into it. We're usually admonished to cease and desist. ;)
 
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The Lady Kate

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vossler said:
Sure, you're free to respond as you see fit. I just didn't see how it benefited anyone. I certainly don't glean anything from our circular discussions. It certainly isn't time well spent.

I'd like to think that someone has learned something, even if it's not readily apparant. Faith, after all, is the belief in things unseen. ;)


Whatever smidgen or tidbit of information that someone could glean from it can't hardly be worth the effort that goes into it. We're usually admonished to cease and desist. ;)

Only because we both have a tendancy to get overzealous at times... I suppose we can civilly wrap this one up by agreeing to disagree.

I'll sum up my POV this way... I agree with you that ultimately, it is the Holy Spirit which draws people to Christ, but still, we have an obligation, through words and deeds, to set an example that makes people more receptive... IOW, the Holy Spirit enters, but we are called to open the door.

That being said, it's certainly advantageous to communicate with people on a level and in terms they are most familiar with in order to help them understand... much as how Jesus told parables to express the Truths of God using ideas everyone could understand.

It's not necessary, but it helps.
 
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Pats

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Consideringly, it sounds like we agree more than anything. :cool:

Pats said:
I have a friend who is very scientifically minded but open to the existance of an undefined god. I feel illequiped to whitness much further to him. I think he'd benefit a great deal from talking with a TEist. This was part of the original conversation. I would rather see him become a brother in Christ with a different theology than mine, than remain a nonbeliever.

vossler said:
I would disagree with this approach. No where in Scripture are we called to send someone to another, especially someone with a different theology, in order that they may become Christians. It isn't our job to 'convince' someone scientifically or any other way of the virtues of Christianity, but only to preach the Word. The rest is the Holy Spirit's job.

I feel that a TE could better explain to such a person, who cannot let go of their scientific theory of evolution/common descent, that not all Christians feel this way and you don't have to become a creationist to become a Christian.

Is this assuming the role of "convincer," or is it a way of further discussions already under way. Although I am a creationist, I am not closed to the idea of considering other theology. Although I don't accept other theology as truth at this time, to not even consider it would be rather tunnel visioned about the whole thing. And since I have/am considering it, how can I hold on to my theology to the point of not showing my friend, who is interested in learning about the Bible, that there is more than one way to interprate it?

I've heard from Vossler and Remus. Any other Creats got an opinion on this? (Not that I don't care about TE opinions, but I'm sure they're mostly affirmative.)

vossler said:
I mean it is the only one that can be supported without having to read into, change, or otherwise manipulate the Scriptures.

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, as I am just a humble student, but don't YECist do exactly this? Cain married who? It doesn't say... so, instead of saying, "we don't know," YECs say it was his sister. That's just one example. It seems to me most theologies presuppose information that is not spelled out clearly.
 
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vossler

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Pats said:
I don't want you to take this the wrong way, as I am just a humble student, but don't YECist do exactly this? Cain married who? It doesn't say... so, instead of saying, "we don't know," YECs say it was his sister. That's just one example. It seems to me most theologies presuppose information that is not spelled out clearly.
In your example above, we really don't know so therefore we make a logical inference, whereas the evolution theory is anything but that. We can't and shouldn't always say "we don't know" when plausible explanations exist.
 
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