Who Speaks?

[The Cadet]

A hypothetical question.

Imagine you encounter a vision. A figure shrouded in holy light appears before you, a brilliant halo on their head. They speak in a divine voice, and tell you that they are the holy spirit of the lord God. They then absolve you of your sins, and demand that you put your neighbors to death for the sin of adultery. You are given the feeling that you know this to be God speaking to you.

But who really just spoke to you? How do you know? How could you tell? How do you know it is not Satan, or some hypothetical other supernatural being?

 

[dysert]

A hypothetical question.

Imagine you encounter a vision. A figure shrouded in holy light appears before you, a brilliant halo on their head. They speak in a divine voice, and tell you that they are the holy spirit of the lord God. They then absolve you of your sins, and demand that you put your neighbors to death for the sin of adultery. You are given the feeling that you know this to be God speaking to you.

But who really just spoke to you? How do you know? How could you tell? How do you know it is not Satan, or some hypothetical other supernatural being?

The speaker was likely a demonic being or simply a manifestation of your own thoughts. You can easily tell because the demand they made of you is contrary to Scripture. Every so-called vision, dream, experience, etc., must be consistent with Scripture to be from God. (Note that this is a necessary condition but not necessarily sufficient.)

 

[The Cadet]

The speaker was likely a demonic being or simply a manifestation of your own thoughts. You can easily tell because the demand they made of you is contrary to Scripture. Every so-called vision, dream, experience, etc., must be consistent with Scripture to be from God. (Note that this is a necessary condition but not necessarily sufficient.)

And if they told you that the scripture is a lie, placed there by Satan to fool mankind? Again, how would you know who to trust?

 

[dysert]

And if they told you that the scripture is a lie, placed there by Satan to fool mankind? Again, how would you know who to trust?

My many many years of experience in studying the Scriptures tells me that Scripture is not a lie, so anyone who tells me it is is of the evil one.

 

[The Cadet]

My many many years of experience in studying the Scriptures tells me that Scripture is not a lie,

I'm not entirely sure how study of a document can give you access to fact claims from long before you were born that are not recorded anywhere else in history.

 

[dysert]

I'm not entirely sure how study of a document can give you access to fact claims from long before you were born that are not recorded anywhere else in history.

I understand how you'd feel that way. It's a function of internal evidence, external evidence, and spiritual evidence; but I fear discussing these would take us away from the topic of the thread.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The speaker was likely a demonic being or simply a manifestation of your own thoughts. You can easily tell because the demand they made of you is contrary to Scripture. Every so-called vision, dream, experience, etc., must be consistent with Scripture to be from God. (Note that this is a necessary condition but not necessarily sufficient.)

Right, because the God of the bible never asked anyone to carry out righteous divine judgement...

If you were Abraham for example, how would you know that it really is God that asks you to kill your son?

 

[DogmaHunter]

My many many years of experience in studying the Scriptures tells me that Scripture is not a lie, so anyone who tells me it is is of the evil one.

Are you aware that there are also people that concluded the opposite after many many years of experience in studying the scriptures?

 

[dysert]

Right, because the God of the bible never asked anyone to carry out righteous divine judgement...

If you were Abraham for example, how would you know that it really is God that asks you to kill your son?

I can only say I'm glad I wasn't in Abraham's shoes. I'm afraid I would have failed the test.

 

[dysert]

Are you aware that there are also people that concluded the opposite after many many years of experience in studying the scriptures?

No doubt.

 

[The Cadet]

I understand how you'd feel that way. It's a function of internal evidence, external evidence, and spiritual evidence; but I fear discussing these would take us away from the topic of the thread.

I don't really see a problem with that. You claim to have a surefire way to determine that this apparently supernatural agent speaking to you is not telling you the truth, and I think it'd be worthwhile to explore that on the side.

I can only say I'm glad I wasn't in Abraham's shoes. I'm afraid I would have failed the test.

Then by all means, replace my hypothetical with that one. Given that Abraham never thought, even for a moment, "this is not my god speaking", and given what is actually being tested (plus the tale of Jephthah), I think it's pretty reasonable to say that demanding child sacrifice is within God's character as described within the bible.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I can only say I'm glad I wasn't in Abraham's shoes. I'm afraid I would have failed the test.

As you say, that's the only thing you can say.
But it didn't answer my question.

IF you were in Abraham's shoes... how could you know that it was indeed God himself that demanded you to kill your son?

How could you know that it wasn't some fallen angel or an alien with really advanced technology? Or your own imagination, off course?

 

[dysert]

As you say, that's the only thing you can say.
But it didn't answer my question.

IF you were in Abraham's shoes... how could you know that it was indeed God himself that demanded you to kill your son?

How could you know that it wasn't some fallen angel or an alien with really advanced technology? Or your own imagination, off course?

As I understand the account, Abraham and God went way back. They absolutely knew each other both on a spiritual and a physical (senses) level. Abraham had no doubt it was God, so the real test is whether he'd trust God or not.

Personally, I don't believe in aliens, so that's out immediately. If I had been Abraham I would have *known* it was God and proceeded to fail the test. If I'm me and that happens, I would again fail the test regardless of whether I thought it was God telling me or someone else.

 

[DogmaHunter]

As I understand the account, Abraham and God went way back. They absolutely knew each other both on a spiritual and a physical (senses) level. Abraham had no doubt it was God, so the real test is whether he'd trust God or not.

Personally, I don't believe in aliens, so that's out immediately. If I had been Abraham I would have *known* it was God and proceeded to fail the test. If I'm me and that happens, I would again fail the test regardless of whether I thought it was God telling me or someone else.

You seem to be dodging the question.

I am askin HOW Abraham could know. Your answer seems to be "well...he just knew".

Great. But this isn't helpfull.

 

[dysert]

Not trying to dodge. It calls for speculation on my part, which I'm not too keen on. I guess it comes down to how much time Abraham spent with God. You spend enough time with someone, you know them. If you've spend enough time with your SO you know them. No one could dupe you if you knew them well. Abraham apparently spent a lot of time with God.

 

[The Cadet]

Not trying to dodge. It calls for speculation on my part, which I'm not too keen on. I guess it comes down to how much time Abraham spent with God. You spend enough time with someone, you know them. If you've spend enough time with your SO you know them. No one could dupe you if you knew them well. Abraham apparently spent a lot of time with God.

But we're talking about supernatural beings with powers beyond our comprehension, including one character coloquially known as the "lord of lies". The idea that Abraham could know, simply from the personality of the person speaking, that it was in fact God makes no sense.

This really goes back to the same old claim. "I know." "How do you know?" "I just know." I don't know how Abraham could tell the difference between one supernatural being being honest and another trying to fool him. Just like I don't know how those who claim to have the gift of the holy spirit can tell that they are not being deceived.

 

[dysert]

But we're talking about supernatural beings with powers beyond our comprehension, including one character coloquially known as the "lord of lies". The idea that Abraham could know, simply from the personality of the person speaking, that it was in fact God makes no sense.

This really goes back to the same old claim. "I know." "How do you know?" "I just know." I don't know how Abraham could tell the difference between one supernatural being being honest and another trying to fool him. Just like I don't know how those who claim to have the gift of the holy spirit can tell that they are not being deceived.

It seems we're into things that can't be proven by known objective standards. I do have a comment though. The "lord of lies" is limited to only what the "Lord of Lords" allows him to do. I have my doubts that the Lord of Lords would give the lord of lies permission to test someone like that. And I disagree that it makes no sense. I think if you spend enough time with someone that you come to know them.

Finally, when someone claims to have the Holy Spirit, that "spirit" can be tested against Scripture. If it's consistent with Scripture, then it's likely the real Thing.

 

[The Cadet]

It seems we're into things that can't be proven by known objective standards.

So... Why believe? If we have no standards, if these things can't be proven, what reason is there to believe that they are true?

The "lord of lies" is limited to only what the "Lord of Lords" allows him to do. I have my doubts that the Lord of Lords would give the lord of lies permission to test someone like that. And I disagree that it makes no sense. I think if you spend enough time with someone that you come to know them.

Of course, here we're back to assuming that God and the Devil exist, share precisely the relationship described in the bible, and that there are no further parties. But even barring that... No, I'm sorry, people have fallen for cases of impersonation, even of their closest loved ones. (Check out story #2.)

Finally, when someone claims to have the Holy Spirit, that "spirit" can be tested against Scripture. If it's consistent with Scripture, then it's likely the real Thing.

Three problems:
1. If we have an actual supernatural being directly telling you that the bible is man-made and fabricated, why believe the bible over the apparent god in front of you?
2. Which interpretation of scripture?
3. It's entirely possible to be both incredibly evil and comply with scripture. Killing people for being homosexual? Cruel, immoral, and unjust, yet demanded in the old testament and never explicitly rescinded in the new. Sacrificing your child? God demands it for a test on one occasion, and straight-up accepts a child sacrifice on another. So Satan could very easily pretend to be the holy spirit, and steer believers towards the more brutal passages and interpretations of the bible. Or worse yet, an interpretation that is scripturally wrong. Maybe god demands faith and works, and satan pretends to be the holy spirit and tells Christians that faith alone is enough. And of course, there's no reason why it couldn't be some being pretending to be god and simply following the bible - why not? There's just all kinds of problems with this.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Right, because the God of the bible never asked anyone to carry out righteous divine judgement...

If you were Abraham for example, how would you know that it really is God that asks you to kill your son?

The thing about Abraham is that he is Sumerian, where human sacrifice was common. In his own personal psyche and view of what a deity would ask him to do, it seemed perfectly reasonable for him to sacrifice his son.

 

[dysert]

It seems we're into things that can't be proven by known objective standards.​

So... Why believe? If we have no standards, if these things can't be proven, what reason is there to believe that they are true?

You’re not being careful with my words. I didn’t say there were no standards, I was talking about known objective standards; and I was talking about proof.


First of all, there are those who want proofs like “1+1=2”. They’ll be disappointed. Then there are those who will be ok with proofs like the internal and external validation of Scripture. Different kinds of proofs for different kinds of disciplines. Personally, I’m content with the internal and external validation of Scripture as proof.


Second, there is an objective standard. It’s the Bible. I won’t hassle with you about the myriad of interpretations, the myriad of holy books, etc., but I’m putting forth the Bible as the source of objective proof of the nature posed in my previous paragraph.


Third, there are subjective standards. Personally, God’s Spirit has communicated with my spirit to the extent that I have knowledge of spiritual things that unbelievers do not. Yes, this is subjective and can’t be subject to external rigor, but that only makes it unprovable, not wrong.

The "lord of lies" is limited to only what the "Lord of Lords" allows him to do. I have my doubts that the Lord of Lords would give the lord of lies permission to test someone like that. And I disagree that it makes no sense. I think if you spend enough time with someone that you come to know them.​

Of course, here we're back to assuming that God and the Devil exist, share precisely the relationship described in the bible, and that there are no further parties. But even barring that... No, I'm sorry, people have fallen for cases of impersonation, even of their closest loved ones. (Check out story #2.)

Sorry, but I didn’t take the time to read the story you recommended. Not only am I trying to limit my time in this discussion, but also I rather doubt it would change my mind. I’m convinced that after 36 years of marriage, I know virtually every square inch of my wife’s’ body. I know her eyes, I know her form, I know her accent, I know what kinds of words she uses, I know her moods, I know how she walks, I know what brings her up and takes her down, etc. I *know* my wife, and I don’t care how good of an actor someone is, they could not pull off a stunt like convincing me they’re my wife. The impersonation stories deal with different levels of knowledge, different actors, different victims, and most importantly, I doubt God has a vested interested in preventing the impersonator from succeeding (versus the case of Abraham, for example).

Finally, when someone claims to have the Holy Spirit, that "spirit" can be tested against Scripture. If it's consistent with Scripture, then it's likely the real Thing.​

Three problems:

1. If we have an actual supernatural being directly telling you that the bible is man-made and fabricated, why believe the bible over the apparent god in front of you?

2. Which interpretation of scripture?

3. It's entirely possible to be both incredibly evil and comply with scripture. Killing people for being homosexual? Cruel, immoral, and unjust, yet demanded in the old testament and never explicitly rescinded in the new. Sacrificing your child? God demands it for a test on one occasion, and straight-up accepts a child sacrifice on another. So Satan could very easily pretend to be the holy spirit, and steer believers towards the more brutal passages and interpretations of the bible. Or worse yet, an interpretation that is scripturally wrong. Maybe god demands faith and works, and satan pretends to be the holy spirit and tells Christians that faith alone is enough. And of course, there's no reason why it couldn't be some being pretending to be god and simply following the bible - why not? There's just all kinds of problems with this.

Three responses:

1. My worldview is a biblical worldview. It may be hard for you to grasp this, but I see things through the lens of the Bible and not the other way around. If I see a supernatural being, my first thought is, what’s the Bible say about this? If the being is telling me anything contrary to the Bible, he/she/it is dismissed out of hand.

2. My interpretation of Scripture. Only I am responsible after all, so I live or die by my interpretation.

3. Your third point is debatable. Just because the Bible records evil acts does not mean it condones those acts. Yes, there are times when God commanded what we would consider evil acts today, but He’s God and can do whatever He wants. I will not question Him. I am not aware of God accepting a child sacrifice. If satan tried to pretend to be an “angel of light” (which he does, according to the Bible), he wouldn’t get past the smell test because he’s a liar and a murderer. He would be hard pressed to convince a true believer who knew his/her Bible to throw it away and accept his lies over the truth.


Whew! That’s gotta be one of the longest posts I’ve ever written. And the sad thing is, none of it will make any difference, except hopefully to some lurkers out there. Now I need some coffee.