Who Is the Woman in Revelation 12

[HannibalFlavius]

i hear ya ..

The dragon and the woman is a very broad subject, it is the most ancient of subjects.

The story takes you right back to Eden.

It's simply a story that repeats itself.

The dragon and the woman.

The Baby which is born is born a warrior man who shall rule the nations with an iron fist.


''And I will put enmity between your seed and his seed.''


The dragon and the woman.

 

[ebedmelech]

is that scripture above fulfilled?

Try Hebrews 1

 

[Time Watcher]

"wow.. are you sure?"

Absolutely .... the 144000 will stand before the Lord and the 24 elders, but on the earth during the tribulation [just like the two prophets will do the same] .... this is possible .... just like 12 apostles did

.... just like you do as a witness to the Lord

And Isaiah 66 is no proof of any "manchild" grouping of the 144,000

In fact the passage is about Jesus Christ and His coming millennial kingdom restored to Israel .... Israel will be the center of this kingdom upon the earth for 1000 years .... and this same setting will continue on into His eternal kingsom

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Ebed

Busy day yesterday sorry I didn't get back sooner.

Quote
This is a rhetorical question by God through the prophet! The prophet is MOCKING Israel by calling her a virgin because she is NOT! She has been unfaithfu! He makes his case by stating the facts of Israel's spiritual adultery...Jeremiah 18:14-17:
End Quote


Really That is your explanation. The last part gets you close. The Virgin of Israel is her spiritual Self. In this verse we see Two separate things.

1. Israel the Nation who is not the Virgin/woman
2. The Virgin /Woman of Israel is the Faith/Religion/ Church

This is not a rhetorical question it is a statement. Just like here

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

And Here

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate

And Here

Isa:23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon:

This is a common theme not a rhetorical question. The Virgin / Woman is always the Spiritual / Church / Faith of the People. It is always the Spirit / Spiritual nature of The God they worship

With the True people of God whether by Blood(12 tribes) or those grafted in by faith there is always two possibilities for the Woman. She is either a faithful virgin not following after false God's and doctrines. Or she is a harlot.

I will add that I believe that is why the 144,000 are called virgins in Rev 14. Not because they are literal virgins but because they have never fallen to false belief and doctrine. That is for another thread.

That is why the harlot of rev 17 is definitely the Church / Faith /Woman of God's people gone bad. God always calls the faith of his people a harlot when she falls. As I pointed out before this Faith/Church is always centered around a city. In the OT that was always Jerusalem some argue that changed to Rome others argue that it is still Jerusalem.

I will not argue either position here. I will only state that the harlot is God's people's faith gone bad.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi Ebed
Busy day yesterday sorry I didn't get back sooner.

Hello.

Quote
This is a rhetorical question by God through the prophet! The prophet is MOCKING Israel by calling her a virgin because she is NOT! She has been unfaithfu! He makes his case by stating the facts of Israel's spiritual adultery...Jeremiah 18:14-17:
End Quote


Really That is your explanation. The last part gets you close. The Virgin of Israel is her spiritual Self. In this verse we see Two separate things.

1. Israel the Nation who is not the Virgin/woman
2. The Virgin /Woman of Israel is the Faith/Religion/ Church

This is not a rhetorical question it is a statement. Just like here

Just The Facts you're simply not following the prophecy...now look at how Jeremiah does it:
18:13:
13 “Therefore thus says the Lord, ‘Ask now among the nations, Who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel Has done a most appalling thing.

The question is to the nations...it ask who ever heard the like of this?? It further goes on "The Virgin of Israel has done an appalling thing"

Now Jeremiah asks 2 questions:
18:14a:
14 ‘Does the snow of Lebanon forsake the rock of the open country? (The answer is no)

Jeremiah 18:14b:
Or is the cold flowing water from a foreign land ever snatched away? (Again the the answer is no)

That would flow back to who has heard the likes of this? To which the answer Is NO ONE!!!

This is the condemnation of God, toward Israel from the prophet:
Jeremiah 18:15-17:
15 ‘For My people have forgotten Me, They burn incense to worthless gods
And they have stumbled from their ways, From the ancient paths, To walk in bypaths, Not on a highway,
16 To make their land a desolation, An object of perpetual hissing; Everyone who passes by it will be astonished And shake his head.
17 ‘Like an east wind I will scatter them Before the enemy;
I will show them My back and not My face In the day of their calamity.’”

So once again you're reading but you're not hearing the prophet...HOW can Israel be "The Virgin" and be guilty to the point of God's judgment?

I think you really need to re-read the passage.

Jer: 46:11: Go up into Gilead, and take balm, O virgin, the daughter of Egypt: in vain shalt thou use many medicines; for thou shalt not be cured.

And Here

Isa:47:1: Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate

And Here

Isa:23:12: And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon:

Once again you fail to understand God is mocking Israel by calling her virgin.

This is a common theme not a rhetorical question. The Virgin / Woman is always the Spiritual / Church / Faith of the People. It is always the Spirit / Spiritual nature of The God they worship

It's a common mocking becuase God opens the prophecy in Jeremiah 2 calling both Israel and Judah harlots...so HOW can they be virgin? This is how you miss what the prophet is saying. Do yourself a favor and search the OT and see how many times God calls Israel/Judah harlots.

With the True people of God whether by Blood(12 tribes) or those grafted in by faith there is always two possibilities for the Woman. She is either a faithful virgin not following after false God's and doctrines. Or she is a harlot.

This is not about true Israel...this is about fleshly Israel of whom the Lord God Himself told Moses they would "play the harlot" BEFORE they even went into the land. Try Deuteronomy 31:14-18.

I will add that I believe that is why the 144,000 are called virgins in Rev 14. Not because they are literal virgins but because they have never fallen to false belief and doctrine. That is for another thread.

Has nothing to do with doctrine...it has to do with never turning to false god's, and therefore being faithful to God. Remember God is the first to equate "turning to other Gods" as "playing the harlot".

That is why the harlot of rev 17 is definitely the Church / Faith /Woman of God's people gone bad. God always calls the faith of his people a harlot when she falls. As I pointed out before this Faith/Church is always centered around a city. In the OT that was always Jerusalem some argue that changed to Rome others argue that it is still Jerusalem.

I will not argue either position here. I will only state that the harlot is God's people's faith gone bad.

Yeah? Well answer why Jeremiah said this in Jeremiah 3:3 of Israel:
“Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.

Now...where is "Mystery Babylon Mother Of Harlot's" written on the woman of Revelation 17???

Work with that...

 

[spiritandtruth2]

"wow.. are you sure?"

Absolutely .... the 144000 will stand before the Lord and the 24 elders, but on the earth during the tribulation [just like the two prophets will do the same] .... this is possible .... just like 12 apostles did

.... just like you do as a witness to the Lord

And Isaiah 66 is no proof of any "manchild" grouping of the 144,000

In fact the passage is about Jesus Christ and His coming millennial kingdom restored to Israel .... Israel will be the center of this kingdom upon the earth for 1000 years .... and this same setting will continue on into His eternal kingsom

Forget about Israel they are not going to be the centre of anything, they put the Messiah to death, and were punished in 70 C.E. when their whole system was brought to nothing, Jerusalem was totally destroyed Temple the works.

No longer where they to be God's people.

You are quoting that much scripture you are losing the sense of what is being said.

The Male Child is the Kingdom Government

Isaiah 9:6-7

New International Version (NIV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

So the Kingdom is a Heavenly Government which consists of Jesus Christ being it's ruler along with the 144,000 which have been redeemed from the earth to rule with him over the earth.

(Revelation 5:9, 10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

The women is God's Heavenly organisation which give birth to the Kingdom arrangement, which if you say the Lord's prayer is going to bring about peace on the earth.

 

[ebedmelech]

Forget about Israel they are not going to be the centre of anything, they put the Messiah to death, and were punished in 70 C.E. when their whole system was brought to nothing, Jerusalem was totally destroyed Temple the works.

No longer where they to be God's people.

You are quoting that much scripture you are losing the sense of what is being said.

The Male Child is the Kingdom Government

Isaiah 9:6-7

New International Version (NIV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

So the Kingdom is a Heavenly Government which consists of Jesus Christ being it's ruler along with the 144,000 which have been redeemed from the earth to rule with him over the earth.

(Revelation 5:9, 10) 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

The women is God's Heavenly organisation which give birth to the Kingdom arrangement, which if you say the Lord's prayer is going to bring about peace on the earth.

Pretty much on board with you except for who the woman is in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12 is making the point that Messiah came through the woman which is the nation Israel. The woman gave birth to a Child who is Jesus. It cannot be the church because the church is built on Jesus

*He rules with a rod of iron (Rev 12:5) - Jesus!

*The Child is caught up to HIS throne (Rev 12: 5) - Jesus

*There is war in heaven (Rev 12:7)...why? Because Jesus has put an END to transgression..so Satan has no place in heaven because he cannot accuse saints before God... Jesus paid it all!!!

*Salvation is announced (Rev 12:10) - Jesus

This is what Revelation 12 is doing showing Jesus came forth from Israel as Messiah.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Ebed

You just do not seem to get this at all.

When Israel is the virgin why is that????????

When Israel is the Harlot why is that??????

 

[Time Watcher]

"Forget about Israel they are not going to be the centre of anything, they put the Messiah to death, and were punished in 70 C.E. when their whole system was brought to nothing, Jerusalem was totally destroyed Temple the works.

No longer where they to be God's people.

You are quoting that much scripture you are losing the sense of what is being said."


Am I?

Do not count on it

I believe the scriptures I have posted deny your idea hands down .... that is why I posted them

Do you want more?

I hear something in your tone that rings of another one

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi Ebed

You just do not seem to get this at all.

When Israel is the virgin why is that????????

When Israel is the Harlot why is that??????

It's you who don't get it Just The Facts. Do yourself a favor and read 1 & 2 Kings and Chronicles and note all of Israel and Judah's idolatry.

Read the prophets and understand why God calls Israel and Judah harlots.

I'm done doing this with you...if you think Israel is a virgin go right ahead. When you see Jesus...ask Him, and He'll explain it to you.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Ebed

Ebed I have read those books over and over and you are right it is full of The Tribes unfaithful religious belief systems and how their prophets and priests led the people astray.

Ebed it took like 10 posts to get you to admit that the Spirit brought forth Jesus.

Now once again you are not answering the Question you are just avoiding it.

When Israel is the virgin why is that????????

When Israel is the Harlot why is that???????

 

[spiritandtruth2]

"Forget about Israel they are not going to be the centre of anything, they put the Messiah to death, and were punished in 70 C.E. when their whole system was brought to nothing, Jerusalem was totally destroyed Temple the works.

No longer where they to be God's people.

You are quoting that much scripture you are losing the sense of what is being said."


Am I?

Do not count on it

I believe the scriptures I have posted deny your idea hands down .... that is why I posted them

Do you want more?

I hear something in your tone that rings of another one

The woman at Rev 12 is the one quoted at Genesis 3:15 which was to be the whole theme of God's Word throughout.

Genesis 3:15

New International Version (NIV)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The woman in Rev 12 represents God's Heavenly organization.

It is also called

(Galatians 4:26) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

So it has nothing to do "Earthly Jerusalem" which is no-longer in God's favour, it was totally destroyed in 70 C.E. which Jesus prophesied it would be, never to be established on the earth again, but now would be a Heavenly organization.

Hebrews 12:22-23

New International Version (NIV)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Philippians 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Nothing points to Israel on the earth as exclusive property any more, it is out of all Nations people will be blessed.

 

[Time Watcher]

"Nothing points to Israel on the earth as exclusive property any more"


Not true

You have been sidetracked by preteristic thinking held by most of professing Christianity today in various forms

I would suggest a return to the literal scriptures of the Bible for you .... for example: learn that the woman of Revelation 12 is a presentation of national Israel past and future .... not the professing "church" and that the Lord is not finished with His people of Israel

And at the same time become more aware of what is going on in the Middle East today where the Lord is drawing attention

 

[spiritandtruth2]

"Nothing points to Israel on the earth as exclusive property any more"


Not true

You have been sidetracked by preteristic thinking held by most of professing Christianity today

I would suggest a return to the literal scriptures of the Bible for you .... for example. learn that the woman of Revelation 12 is a presentation of national Israel past and future .... not the professing "church"

And at the same time become more aware of what is going on in the Middle East today where the Lord is drawing attention

How is the Lord bring attention to the Middle East, the Middle East is bringing attention to itself, which was prophesied in the Bible, what angle are you going from.

The scripture had the word Church quoted which you have viewed as a literal Church organisation but it should say "The Congregation of the First Born" which a scriptures in Luke and John points out.

Luke 12:32

New International Version (NIV)

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

The Little Flock being the 144,000 which rule with Jesus in his Kingdom arrangement.


John 10:16

New International Version (NIV)

16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Which are the ones spoken about in Revelations 7

Revelation 7:9-10

New International Version (NIV)

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

Did you notice that the other sheep come in from every nation not just the one you seem to be fixated on Israel.

Why do you think?

All the countries in the Middle East are turning from Theocracies to Democracies, man ruled rather than God ruled.

All has been prophesied, Israel have got Nuclear Weapons etc, and Jesus made it clear that his disciples are no part of the world, haven't you noticed that Israel is very much part of this world, you need to read your Bible to get the sense of what our Lord Jesus Christ is saying my friend.

Your Sister in the Lord.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi Ebed

Ebed I have read those books over and over and you are right it is full of The Tribes unfaithful religious belief systems and how their prophets and priests led the people astray.

Ebed it took like 10 posts to get you to admit that the Spirit brought forth Jesus.

No I think you have that wrong Just The Facts. Remember this is about who the woman is in Revelation...and through this thread we grappled about that. I said the woman is Israel bringing forth Christ. That's a statement I made but it would be ridiculous for me not to say the Holy Spirit didn't bring forth Jesus. That's because of you narrow, literal thinking. To say Jesus came forth from Israel is also true...but again you have to let scripture say it the way it wants to...when it wants to.

Now once again you are not answering the Question you are just avoiding it.

When Israel is the virgin why is that????????

When Israel is the Harlot why is that???????

I told you...I'm done doing this with you. Walk in what you think Just The Facts.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello Ebed

I am not narrow minded Ebed I just refuse to ignore verses. Every verse must fit in an understanding or it is just the doctrine of men. I have no trouble saying that scripture tell us that Jesus will be born from the loins of Judah. The whole first part of Matt is about the genealogy to prove Jesus is of the Branch of Jesse.

This thread is about who the Woman who brings forth the male child is. You are saying that the woman is a nation. I am saying no.. a woman is always a representation of the Spiritual Identity of the nation not the nation itself.

I am also saying the scripture confirms this when it says that it is the Spirit that brought forth Jesus. because the Woman is a Spiritual representation of the nation.

The Virgin of Israel is the Spiritual Identity of the nation. Just as the Virgin of Egypt is the spiritual Identity of Egypt and so on and so on. Scripture says The Virgin is OF Israel not The Virgin is Israel. The Virgin of Egypt and Tyre and Babylon is OF the nation not is the nation.

The Spiritual Identity is not defined by what individuals do. There is always those who are evil and those who are good. God does not judge a Virgin a harlot because of the actions of a few Individuals.

So how do you define the Spiritual Identity of a nation or people. That is easy it is what the society accepts as a whole. What the religious leaders teach to the people and is there by accepted in society as truth. Once accepted people act on the accepted doctrine. Just as Jesus tell the Pharisees that they have made of no avail the law of Moses by their teaching on widow's. The Pharisees taught it, society accepted it as the teaching of Torah and yet Jesus says they are nullifying the Torah by this teaching.

You told me to read Kings and Jeremiah yet you do not seem to hear God when he lays the blame of turning the Virgin into a harlot clearly on the religious leadership of the nation. The people do not go to every high place the Priests do and the people see this and believe it is God's will.

Thus the Virgin is Turned into a harlot.

I will respect your wishes not to discuss this any more. Peace to you my brother in Christ.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hello Ebed

Hello Just The Facts

I am not narrow minded Ebed I just refuse to ignore verses. Every verse must fit in an understanding or it is just the doctrine of men. I have no trouble saying that scripture tell us that Jesus will be born from the loins of Judah. The whole first part of Matt is about the genealogy to prove Jesus is of the Branch of Jesse.

First things first...the scripture call Jesus "The Lion of the tribe of Judah", it is not plural it says "LION"

This thread is about who the Woman who brings forth the male child is. You are saying that the woman is a nation. I am saying no.. a woman is always a representation of the Spiritual Identity of the nation not the nation itself.

That's what wrong with what you're saying though. The identity of the woman goes back to Josephs dream as I said before. Go to Genesis 37:9-11 because that's the ONLY place the woman's description comes from.

I am also saying the scripture confirms this when it says that it is the Spirit that brought forth Jesus. because the Woman is a Spiritual representation of the nation.

The Virgin of Israel is the Spiritual Identity of the nation. Just as the Virgin of Egypt is the spiritual Identity of Egypt and so on and so on. Scripture says The Virgin is OF Israel not The Virgin is Israel. The Virgin of Egypt and Tyre and Babylon is OF the nation not is the nation.

First Revelation 12 doesn't call the woman a virgin...YOU DO THAT. Do the word study on the word "woman"...but also understand again there are several passages that typify Israel/Judah as a woman. Furthermore EVERY passage you try to point to that calls Israel a virgin follows it up to show Israel was NOT A VIRGIN...and therfore God is mocking Israel by calling her a virgin. So do the research on that. You have a knack for not reading ALL of the prophesies you want to point to. As soon as God calls Israel virgin...HE PROVES SHE IS NOT!!!

The Spiritual Identity is not defined by what individuals do. There is always those who are evil and those who are good. God does not judge a Virgin a harlot because of the actions of a few Individuals.

That's why you need to read every passage where God calls Israel a virgin...because He follows that up proving Israel is NOT a virgin.

So how do you define the Spiritual Identity of a nation or people. That is easy it is what the society accepts as a whole. What the religious leaders teach to the people and is there by accepted in society as truth. Once accepted people act on the accepted doctrine. Just as Jesus tell the Pharisees that they have made of no avail the law of Moses by their teaching on widow's. The Pharisees taught it, society accepted it as the teaching of Torah and yet Jesus says they are nullifying the Torah by this teaching.

I define it by what scripture says. God changed Jacob's name to Israel, he had 12 sons...think about that.

You told me to read Kings and Jeremiah yet you do not seem to hear God when he lays the blame of turning the Virgin into a harlot clearly on the religious leadership of the nation. The people do not go to every high place the Priests do and the people see this and believe it is God's will.

That makes no difference...just as we have false prophets today, we're responsible to God first. Check out King David...was he ever a priest? Nope! Did he trust in the Lord? Yes! End of story.

Thus the Virgin is Turned into a harlot.

Here's the problem with that...it's NOT what God says! He sent prophets to THE people, the kings, and the priest. Jeremiah declared God's prophecy to the people as well as the priest...and he held the people responsible because just as the priest, they heard the prophets too!

I will respect your wishes not to discuss this any more. Peace to you my brother in Christ.

I said that because I'm not responsible to you for how I study God's word, I'm responsible to God...so while you're free to present your view of the scripture, I'm just as free to consider that...but if in my heart, I believe it's not the proper view, I won;t accept that...and I don't accept your view.

I hold to what I believe the scripture says and means Just The Facts...you have not convinced me that your view is proper...so I reject it.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Ebed


Yes I know it is the Lion and not Lions not sure how that got there I think auto correct got me.

I do not deny that Gen: has close similarities but that is not enough to base a doctrine on. The reason there is thousands of theories is because there are thousands of verses and if each person focuses on one verse you end up with thousands of doctrines.

The truth does not ignore verses, every verse must fit.

Ps 89:34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Now when we look at Ps 89:

37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Above we see that God says the moon will forever represent the covenant / the promise. We can not ignore this verse in any understand of Rev 12 which uses the symbol of the moon.

I also agree that we can not ignore the dream. God does not change what he has said. So these two things must both fit into any understanding that is the Truth.

What we need to remember in all of this is what is the Promise to Judah. What is the promise that is Represented in the symbol of the moon.

Gen:49:10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

The promise is that Judah will rule until Jesus comes and that Jesus will be born of the tribe of Judah.

This promise is forever represented by the moon.

Even if the Woman was Israel the nation the nation does not stand on Rachel The nation the people the prophets the true church EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE ....................all of them STAND ON THE PROMISE.

Ebed I am not ignoring anything I know full well that God uses the Term Virgin in a mocking way. The Virgin represents purity in belief and practice Israel and Judah never followed the covenant or acted purely.

You are ignoring every other verse where God uses the Term Virgin of Babylon of Egypt of Tyre. You ignore any reference to them you repeatedly ignore my questions as to what is meant by the term.

You also ignore that whether it is the virgin or the Woman it is always OF Israel. How can the Virgin of Israel be Israel. It can not be, it is OF the whole not the whole itself. You should do a word study of the word OF

preposition



preposition: of

1. 1.

expressing the relationship between a part and a whole.
o with the word denoting the part functioning as the head of the phrase.
"the sleeve of his coat"
o after a number, quantifier, or partitive noun, with the word denoting the whole functioning as the head of the phrase.



"nine of the children came to the show"

1. 2.

expressing the relationship between a scale or measure and a value.
"an increase of 5%"
The Virgin that Israel never was or is, is OF Israel.... it is part of Israel not the whole nation.

Show me any verse, anywhere where the term wife or woman or virgin is used in reference to Israel of Judah and I 100% guarantee that within a couple of verses it will talk about their worship and their spiritual Identity. The two things are ALWAYS tied together ALWAYS.

Quote
Here's the problem with that...it's NOT what God says! He sent prophets to THE people, the kings, and the priest. Jeremiah declared God's prophecy to the people as well as the priest...and he held the people responsible because just as the priest, they heard the prophets too!
End Quote

That is just not true Once again you are ignoring verses. I pointed this out to you in Jeremiah 2: which is the lead into Jeremiah 3 and God using the Term Virgin of Israel.

8: The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. 9: Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with your children's children will I plead. 10: For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing. 11: Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. 12: Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD. 13: For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. 14: Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?

Not only does it directly reference the Priests and Ministers it also calls the nation of Israel a HE not a virgin/woman. The Virgin / woman is OF the whole not the whole IE not the Nation.

26: As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets, 27: Saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.

After Chapter 2 talking about the priest the Kings the Prophets going after false Gods. Chapter 3 starts with this as The Worship of Israel is symbolized as a wife who is unfaithful

1: They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. 2: Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.

It only talk about the spiritual Identity, it directly says that the Land/ nation has suffered the whoredoms because of the Spiritual false worship of the unfaithful wife.

14: Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Even here where God directly says he is married to the people / Children he does so in reference to their worship. The next verse again shows this to be exactly as I am trying to show you.

15: And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Once again it talks about how the PASTORS will FINALLY feed the people the truth. The rest of the chapter talks about the Millennial Kingdom.

I am not ignoring anything I am putting all the verses together. I am not taking the single verses where God refers to a woman /virgin/wife. Then using that verse to build and support a doctrine. I am looking at what is said in the whole two chapters. I see how God repeatedly talks of how the Pastor and Priests and Prophets and Kings led the people astray. How they placed their faith in other Gods, false Gods and thus the nation suffered whoredoms.

How in the Millennial Kingdom the Pastors will feed Truth and Knowledge to the people not lies and false worship.

I can not believe you can read these two chapters and not see it is all about the Spiritual Identity of the Nation. not about the actual physical Nation.

To each in their time and a Time for each.

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi Ebed

Hello Just The Facts.


Yes I know it is the Lion and not Lions not sure how that got there I think auto correct got me.

I do not deny that Gen: has close similarities but that is not enough to base a doctrine on. The reason there is thousands of theories is because there are thousands of verses and if each person focuses on one verse you end up with thousands of doctrines.

The truth does not ignore verses, every verse must fit.

This is not doctrine though...it is the understanding of prophetic passages, in particular Jeremiah.

Ps 89:34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Now when we look at Ps 89:

37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

Above we see that God says the moon will forever represent the covenant / the promise. We can not ignore this verse in any understand of Rev 12 which uses the symbol of the moon.

Here's the problem Just The Facts, you don't jump to Psalms 89 from Jeremiah! Jeremiah is giving prophecy to Judah/Israel. Psalm 89 is out of Israel's distress, Jeremiah is a prophecy where God is justifying His judgment of Judah/Israel, so you don't go to Psalm 89...it has it's own story and it is a Psalm of David, NOT a prophecy of Jeremiah.

I also agree that we can not ignore the dream. God does not change what he has said. So these two things must both fit into any understanding that is the Truth.

I'm glad you see that. But when Revelation 12:1 gives you something that can be none other than Israel because Israel came into being through Israel (Jacob), Rachel, and the 12 sons of Jacob...this is why the woman is Israel, because Jesus will come forth from Israel. He is "the promise" which God gave to Abraham which comes through Isaac, Jacob, and so on.

What we need to remember in all of this is what is the Promise to Judah. What is the promise that is Represented in the symbol of the moon.

Again, as I made clear above "the promise" is to Abraham as is made clear by Paul in Romans 9:9:
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.”
When you read of "the promise" it ALWAYS goes back to Abraham!

Gen:49:10: The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

The promise is that Judah will rule until Jesus comes and that Jesus will be born of the tribe of Judah.

This promise is forever represented by the moon.

I just showed you who and what the promise is. To make it a little clearer let's let Paul make it clear in your mind...Galatians 3:16:
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
Now of course Judah is the tribe from which Christ comes...but never forget Judah is descended from Abraham, via Isaac and Jacob. So again the whole picture is in focus...you must trace where Judah comes from...which is Abraham...TO WHOM GOD GAVE THE PROMISE OF CHRIST!

Even if the Woman was Israel the nation the nation does not stand on Rachel The nation the people the prophets the true church EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE ....................all of them STAND ON THE PROMISE.

Ebed I am not ignoring anything...

I stop here because I've made my case from scripture. When it comes to Jeremiah...he makes his case very early in Jeremiah 2 and 3 as God calls them both harlots...and he goes on to show why. Once God has made the case you cannot then want Israel to be a virgin because at times God mocks her calling her a harlot and then He turns around and call her a virigin but the future is in mind...as in Jeremiah 31:4:
“Again I will build you and you will be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! Again you will take up your tambourines, And go forth to the dances of the merrymakers.
As you read that passage pay close attention to it because it's eternity.

You must stay with the context of what God is saying...when he says it through Jeremiah.

These are things you fail to do...as you went to Psalm 89...it has nothing to do with Jeremiah's prophecy...it refers to God's covenant to David...which also is Christ and is consistent with God's promise to Abraham.

 

[iamlamad]

The woman at Rev 12 is the one quoted at Genesis 3:15 which was to be the whole theme of God's Word throughout.

Genesis 3:15

New International Version (NIV)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The woman in Rev 12 represents God's Heavenly organization.

It is also called

(Galatians 4:26) 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

So it has nothing to do "Earthly Jerusalem" which is no-longer in God's favour, it was totally destroyed in 70 C.E. which Jesus prophesied it would be, never to be established on the earth again, but now would be a Heavenly organization.

Hebrews 12:22-23

New International Version (NIV)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Philippians 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Nothing points to Israel on the earth as exclusive property any more, it is out of all Nations people will be blessed.

This is SO SIMPLE: chapter 12 was God introducing John to the dragon. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns. You should come to 32 times. That should convince you this chapter is about the dragon.

However, God CHOSE to show John what the dragon DID (history lesson) when Jesus was born. Remember King Herod? What nation was Jesus born from? Of course, ISRAEL. The woman then, is in reference to the nation of ISRAEL. Remember little Joseph and his dreams?

Lamad