Who is the better person?

[Hestha]

Is Diana trying to lead people away from the truth?

What truth? If you are talking about God's truth, then no. If Diana is not a Christian, then would why she care about leading people away or toward the truth in the first place?

Is Diana’s love just some emotion or is it something she has thought out?

Just emotion. Why would anyone need to think out before helping? Shouldn't helping be an emotional impulse? Think of Good Samaritan laws and Good Samaritan behaviors.

Does she have a logical reason?

Does she need to have a logical reason? What is so logical about helping? If your child asks you to help him or her on something, do you think twice before you actually do it? Or do you help him or her because you love your child and wants him or her to improve?

You will answer for yourself to him, not by comparing your self against any other person, Christian or not. You must have the Son of God or nothing counts in God's court. Say you murder, just because you have not murdered many times, you still get the death penalty for the one. The times you did not do not help you at all.

But what if an individual has never murdered simply because he or she says "it's illegal to do so" and the individual does not want to get in trouble with the law?

On the other hand Diana has the empathy and compassion for others that Jesus Christ himself told his disciples that he expected of them (Matthew 25:31-46). She feels their pain, and does what she can to alleviate their suffering. She's willing to go the extra mile, and does not shrink from the work she sees in front of her. So why is she not a Christian, since she has the motivations already that a Christian should have?

It's entirely possible that she is still an atheist because that is where God wants her to be at this time in her life. The churches where she is may not be inciting their members into alleviating the suffering that they have in that area, so God has chosen to keep her away from them so that she can get the work done which they are supposed to do, but are failing to accomplish. The churches may even be telling their members that the suffering they see around them is the wrath of God, so those members are to do nothing to alleviate it (Don't laugh; i've had different people who claimed to be Christians tell me this exact excuse for denying aid to others). God wants people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and go to work giving aid to others. Pietism and elitism has no place in Christianity.

At some time in the future God will in all likelihood call her. But with what she has accomplished, his call will not be to accept in abject obedience the leadership of those who have failed to do the work which she has completed. Instead, wherever God calls her to be, she will enter that church as a leader rather than a follower.

As for Romans, here are some passages which are the main focus of that book:

Romans 3:19-5:10. The righteousness which we need for salvation is a righteousness which God is willing to give us freely.

Romans 10:5-13. Our salvation is based not on what we do, but rather on what we accept as fact. If we accept that Jesus Christ did indeed die for our sins, and was indeed resurrected, then we will be saved.

Romans 12:9-21. Love one another. Do not be conceited. Do what is right toward friend and enemy alike. Live at peace with everyone if at all possible. Do not seek revenge when wronged.

Another passage written by St. Paul, but not located in Romans, is Galatians 5:16-26. I call it 'The Christians Code of Conduct'. You should find it interesting reading, as it deals with which motivations are to be shunned as leading to the commission of sinful words and actions, and which motivations are to be welcomed as leading to the performance of righteous words and actions. Using that 'yardstick' Elizabeth is shown for what she really is, and Diana is pointed out as one who is already using 'the fruit of the Spirit' as the impetus for her actions.

God bless-

Well, if being a Christian means to help people in need to alleviate suffering, then Diana would certainly be the Christian, would she? Now, being a Christian also requires the individual to repent, which means to change. If Diana has been perfect all her life, then does that mean she doesn't have to repent but rather allow people to follow her and not Christ? Could Diana be the next Messiah, or would that be considered idolatry?

Subjectively, Diana is a better person.

Objectively, there is no such thing as better persons.

-CryptoLutheran

What do you mean by "no such thing as better persons"? Do you mean that Elizabeth would go to hell because she is a false Christian and Diana would go to hell because she is good but godless?

 

[christseeker45]

Have you ever heard of empathy and compassion? Perhaps, Diana feels empathy and compassion for the people around her. Diana respects and obeys her parents out of love. She knows that her parents means well and wants the best for her, and she loves them in return. Diana donates to charities, because seeing people suffer makes her sad, and charities alleviate the suffering, as long as the charities themselves do not engage in discrimination of social groups when helping people. Humility is an universal virtue. Religions teach it. Some academic disciplines expect it. Perhaps, Diana is a scientist, and she humbles herself to the idea that she does not know everything and must use science to gain more knowledge about the world around her. Diana may be a "spiritual but not religious" person. She may follow an ethical system but not believe in the Christian god.



I expected you to say that. If Diana is the better person, then why believe in God?



I don't know. You tell me.



You didn't answer the topic question. The topic question is about who is the better person, not who is the Christian. Diana is obviously the better person, but she is not a Christian, because she does not follow Jesus Christ.



I did mention that Elizabeth is a Christian. Catholicism is an older branch of Christianity and has the sacrament of penance, which Protestant churches reject.

So, you think that Elizabeth has shown the door. What about Diana? Do you think Diana is the better person then, as an atheist?

I did answer, I said Neither are he good person. There are none in your story

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do you mean by "no such thing as better persons"? Do you mean that Elizabeth would go to hell because she is a false Christian and Diana would go to hell because she is good but godless?

What I mean is that there isn't such a thing as better or worse persons. There are only human persons. We are each and individually a broken, fragile, and fallible human person. Our status as such can't be improved by how hard we try.

Speaking objectively I mean.

Subjectively--i.e. as far as relative perception and observation indicates--one of course can act better or worse; we can evaluate a Ghandi or a Hitler and we subjectively we see a qualitative difference in character and behavior. Objectively, or rather (perhaps) ontologically, a Ghandi or a Hitler are the same: namely being human. With all the faltering, failing, and fragile weakness inherent in all human beings. Beauty mired by sin.

God doesn't want us to be better so we can go up to some pie in the sky; He wants us to be like Him. That doesn't happen in this life, as long as death reigns in the body perfect Theosis is impossible. That is why the Christian hope is the resurrection of the body, that the body is raised up, glorified, clothed with the immortality and divinity of God.

"The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said." - C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

-CryptoLutheran

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
Neither. it is written that none are righteous, no not one. Only Jesus Who died for our sins is. That is why He was able to wash our sins away, because He was the spotless Lamb of God.

It is written that none are righteous but that is not literally true. Job was a righteous man. Ezekiel talked about righteous people and said they would live and not die. Ezekiel 18. The Good Samaritan was righteouse. The sheep in Matt 25 were righteous.

They are not righteous of their own accord/by their own power. Not one. Only Jesus Christ was/is perfect. if ANY were righteous on their own, if that was/is possible, a Savior is not necessary and Jesus died in vain.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" ~Romans 3:10

Our "good works" are as filthy rags.

 

[Hestha]

God doesn't want us to be better so we can go up to some pie in the sky; He wants us to be like Him. That doesn't happen in this life, as long as death reigns in the body perfect Theosis is impossible. That is why the Christian hope is the resurrection of the body, that the body is raised up, glorified, clothed with the immortality and divinity of God.

"The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said." - C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

-CryptoLutheran

First, you say that God wants people to be perfect. Then, you say that people can't be perfect and godlike, which implies that God has set this really high impossible standard to reach that no one can ever obtain. And then you point to C.S. Lewis, who says that this impossible command is not impossible.

Why does God set this extremely high standard that no one can get to in the first place? Wouldn't it be easier to judge people's goodness and badness on a scale and find the median? Everyone who is at or above the median goes to heaven, and everyone who is below the median goes to hell.

 

[ViaCrucis]

First, you say that God wants people to be perfect. Then, you say that people can't be perfect and godlike, which implies that God has set this really high impossible standard to reach that no one can ever obtain. And then you point to C.S. Lewis, who says that this impossible command is not impossible.

Why does God set this extremely high standard that no one can get to in the first place? Wouldn't it be easier to judge people's goodness and badness on a scale and find the median? Everyone who is at or above the median goes to heaven, and everyone who is below the median goes to hell.

Getting to heaven/avoiding hell shouldn't figure into things here (I don't think). Rather the issue is for what reason we exist as human persons, and that reason is to be perfect. We don't reach that perfection, rather God accomplishes it by our salvation--the reason Christ died and rose from the dead. It's for this reason we were baptized and made members of Christ's mystical Body, the Church.

God doesn't set a high standard and ask people to reach it; rather God remains God and has set His purposes for the entire universe and is going to make good on all those purposes--and that means making us perfect even as He is perfect.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hestha]

Getting to heaven/avoiding hell shouldn't figure into things here (I don't think). Rather the issue is for what reason we exist as human persons, and that reason is to be perfect. We don't reach that perfection, rather God accomplishes it by our salvation--the reason Christ died and rose from the dead. It's for this reason we were baptized and made members of Christ's mystical Body, the Church.

God doesn't set a high standard and ask people to reach it; rather God remains God and has set His purposes for the entire universe and is going to make good on all those purposes--and that means making us perfect even as He is perfect.

-CryptoLutheran

So, anybody who does not accept Christ does not get saved. Does this mean little babies who aren't christened or baptized would be damned in hell for eternity? What about the pre-Christian Jews?

 

[drich0150]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Neither are 'better.' However one has been saved. Salvation has absolutly nothing to do with what we 'deserve.'

 

[RaiseTheDead]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

You do realize this goes against Christ's teachings?

 

[Hospes]

I am reading the Book of Romans right now, and it appears to me that Paul is criticizing the Romans around him for not following his god. Paul is preaching the gospel to the Romans, acting all self-righteous as if he knows better. I really do not like Paul as a character. He seems to say, "Ha-ha! You are evil. Now follow Christ." However, I do think Christians act just like Paul when "sharing" the gospel or preaching the gospel to non-Christians: they act superior to everybody else and try to advertise the Christian faith.

Hestha, lord knows Christians, myself included, are pretty poor carriers of the Gospel. So if we come across as thinking we're superior, try not to let it get in the way of the actual message. Also, is there a chance that our insistence that we know of the the only means of salvation comes off as superiority? (In our current culture being convinced that one is right and others are wrong is taboo.) But what if you really do know the only means of reconciliation? Wouldn't it be wrong to not state it. If you knew the only source of water, wouldn't it be wrong to be all nuanced and give people the impression there may be other sources? You may avoid coming off as superior, but nonetheless to say anything that would lead to people thirsting to death while searching elsewhere for the water would be cruel.

So yes, the Christian faith teaches that God reconciles people to himself solely for making them "better". And yes, the desire to be a "better" person is the sole attraction of the Christian faith for the gullible individual.

Here you have stated two things I, as a follower of Jesus, disagree with. I think the Bible teaches that God shows love to us by reconciling us to himself. (Mind you, I don't mean the sickly sweet syrupy "unconditional" love that a lot of folks talk of; his love is contraconditional, not unconditional.) Also, there are a number of things my heart desired that God used to draw me to himself and to become a better person was pretty far down the list. Jesus spoke of salvation as a pearl of great price, a treasure, living water, rest and letting go of burden, etc. Off the top of my head, I do not remember him laying out the attraction as you-get-to-be-a-better-person.

BTW, Hestha, I think you ask good questions and you are easy to engage in thoughtful dialog. Doesn't happen often around here. Thanks.

 

[Publius]

So, anybody who does not accept Christ does not get saved.

What good would it do to answer your question when you're just going to ignore the answer?

You keep asking about "accepting Jesus" and we keep explaining to you that there is no such thing as "accepting Jesus", but that it is up to Jesus to accept us.

Does this mean little babies who aren't christened or baptized would be damned in hell for eternity?

What does christening have to do with salvation? Baptism is a response to salvation. It follows salvation. It does not cause salvation.

What about the pre-Christian Jews?

What about them? They can't be saved?

 

[RaiseTheDead]

First, you say that God wants people to be perfect. Then, you say that people can't be perfect and godlike, which implies that God has set this really high impossible standard to reach that no one can ever obtain. And then you point to C.S. Lewis, who says that this impossible command is not impossible.

Why does God set this extremely high standard that no one can get to in the first place? Wouldn't it be easier to judge people's goodness and badness on a scale and find the median? Everyone who is at or above the median goes to heaven, and everyone who is below the median goes to hell.

You're somehow thinking this is a new idea? God's Holiness is not factored by "easy"

 

[Hestha]

What good would it do to answer your question when you're just going to ignore the answer?

You keep asking about "accepting Jesus" and we keep explaining to you that there is no such thing as "accepting Jesus", but that it is up to Jesus to accept us.

Fine. I'm going to use your terminology to express the same thing.

What does christening have to do with salvation? Baptism is a response to salvation. It follows salvation. It does not cause salvation.

Christening is baptism that some churches use to baptize infants in order to save them. The idea is that the baby presumably already knows God but cannot express its love for God yet, so the little baby is baptized by a priest in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. However, since you are a Reformed Baptist, I don't think you believe in infant baptism.

What about them? They can't be saved?

You are talking about the Pre-Christian era. Before Christ was even born.

 

[Hestha]

You do realize this goes against Christ's teachings?

You mean this quote?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." [Matthew 7:1]

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Hestha
First, you say that God wants people to be perfect. Then, you say that people can't be perfect and godlike, which implies that God has set this really high impossible standard to reach that no one can ever obtain. And then you point to C.S. Lewis, who says that this impossible command is not impossible.

Why does God set this extremely high standard that no one can get to in the first place? Wouldn't it be easier to judge people's goodness and badness on a scale and find the median? Everyone who is at or above the median goes to heaven, and everyone who is below the median goes to hell.

That's why God sent His only begotten Son to die as a Sacrifice. Because you are correct. NO ONE was perfect. NO ONE COULD be perfect. A Savior was required.

 

[Hestha]

That reminds me...

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:16]

John 3:16 - Bible Memory Verse Song For Children - YouTube

The song now sticks in my head.

 

[brinny]

That reminds me...

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [John 3:16]

John 3:16 - Bible Memory Verse Song For Children - YouTube

The song now sticks in my head.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

You mean this quote?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." [Matthew 7:1]

That quote is usually taken out of context. It doesn't mean you must never judge anybody - if it did we wouldn't have a justice system. It means if you are going to judge someone, you need to make sure you aren't making the same mistakes they're making. It's a warning against hypocristy, not judging others:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

- Matthew 7:1-5 (NIV)​

 

[hedrick]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Fortunately, we don't have the responsibility for judging. Several of Jesus' teachings might suggest that Diana is closer to him. But we have no way of knowing what kinds of limitations Elizabeth is operating under, nor what Diana's motivations really are. That's relevant, because God doesn't just count good and bad deeds. But Jesus does suggest that actions give us a pretty good clue.

CF tends to be a conservative Protestant group. But in the Christian world as a whole, the majority position is "inclusivism." This position says that only God knows how he is working with people, but that it's possible that Diana is actually serving Christ, even though she's not fully aware of it. Of course she would be better off to be doing so knowingly.

 

[Hestha]

Fortunately, we don't have the responsibility for judging. Several of Jesus' teachings might suggest that Diana is closer to him. But we have no way of knowing what kinds of limitations Elizabeth is operating under, nor what Diana's motivations really are. That's relevant, because God doesn't just count good and bad deeds. But Jesus does suggest that actions give us a pretty good clue.

CF tends to be a conservative Protestant group. But in the Christian world as a whole, the majority position is "inclusivism." This position says that only God knows how he is working with people, but that it's possible that Diana is actually serving Christ, even though she's not fully aware of it. Of course she would be better off to be doing so knowingly.

So, if the Christian world as a whole is inclusivism, and CF tends to be a conservative Protestant group, then CF sides with exclusivism? And that means... what?