Who is the better person?

[Hestha]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

From a Christian point of view - neither, technically. The idea that Diana is the better person, and presumably should go heaven even though she's an atheist, has three flaws:

* The first is the traditional Christian teaching that a person cannot earn their way into heaven. They have to believe that Jesus took on their sins when he died.
* The second is that she is following Christian (or at least religious) values even though she herself is not a religious person which, at best, makes her somewhat of a hypocrite. Why is she copying the values of a belief system she herself does not believe in?
* The third (and this is probably the most difficult point) is that even if we argue that she is being good for goodness sake and not because of what some Holy Book told her, this presumes some kind of "objective" morality exists. If objective morality does exist, where does it come from?

As for Elizabeth, the fact she continues to sin after asking for forgiveness suggests she was not being sincere.

 

[Hospes]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Defining "better person" as the one that has a character that more closely conforms to God's character and his desire for human behavior, then Diana is better.

So?

 

[Sketcher]

How exactly is Elizabeth a Christian if all that is in her life, and she returns to it?

 

[christseeker45]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Neither. Elizabeth nor Diana are Christians. It takes more to being a Christian then just claiming to be one

 

[Publius]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

By your description, Elizabeth is not a Christian. By your description, she's never repented of her sin and she shows no good fruit or evidence of the sanctification that follows regeneration.

Interesting that you say she "confesses her sins to a priest", indicating that she is Catholic. Catholic churches are notorious for not loving their people enough to discipline them.

In any Christian church I know of, Elizabeth would have been disciplined long ago and, from your description, shown the door.

 

[Hestha]

From a Christian point of view - neither, technically. The idea that Diana is the better person, and presumably should go heaven even though she's an atheist, has three flaws:

* The first is the traditional Christian teaching that a person cannot earn their way into heaven. They have to believe that Jesus took on their sins when he died.
* The second is that she is following Christian (or at least religious) values even though she herself is not a religious person which, at best, makes her somewhat of a hypocrite. Why is she copying the values of a belief system she herself does not believe in?
* The third (and this is probably the most difficult point) is that even if we argue that she is being good for goodness sake and not because of what some Holy Book told her, this presumes some kind of "objective" morality exists. If objective morality does exist, where does it come from?

Have you ever heard of empathy and compassion? Perhaps, Diana feels empathy and compassion for the people around her. Diana respects and obeys her parents out of love. She knows that her parents means well and wants the best for her, and she loves them in return. Diana donates to charities, because seeing people suffer makes her sad, and charities alleviate the suffering, as long as the charities themselves do not engage in discrimination of social groups when helping people. Humility is an universal virtue. Religions teach it. Some academic disciplines expect it. Perhaps, Diana is a scientist, and she humbles herself to the idea that she does not know everything and must use science to gain more knowledge about the world around her. Diana may be a "spiritual but not religious" person. She may follow an ethical system but not believe in the Christian god.

Defining "better person" as the one that has a character that more closely conforms to God's character and his desire for human behavior, then Diana is better.

So?

I expected you to say that. If Diana is the better person, then why believe in God?

How exactly is Elizabeth a Christian if all that is in her life, and she returns to it?

I don't know. You tell me.

Neither. Elizabeth nor Diana are Christians. It takes more to being a Christian then just claiming to be one

You didn't answer the topic question. The topic question is about who is the better person, not who is the Christian. Diana is obviously the better person, but she is not a Christian, because she does not follow Jesus Christ.

By your description, Elizabeth is not a Christian. By your description, she's never repented of her sin and she shows no good fruit or evidence of the sanctification that follows regeneration.

Interesting that you say she "confesses her sins to a priest", indicating that she is Catholic. Catholic churches are notorious for not loving their people enough to discipline them.

In any Christian church I know of, Elizabeth would have been disciplined long ago and, from your description, shown the door.

I did mention that Elizabeth is a Christian. Catholicism is an older branch of Christianity and has the sacrament of penance, which Protestant churches reject.

So, you think that Elizabeth has shown the door. What about Diana? Do you think Diana is the better person then, as an atheist?

 

[Hospes]

I expected you to say that. If Diana is the better person, then why believe in God?

Hestha,

Are you thinking the Christian faith teaches that God reconciles people to himself solely for making them better or that the desire to be a better person is the sole attraction of Christian faith? (Not being rhetorical here; really trying to understand the thinking behind the question.)

 

[elman]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Elizabeth is not a Christian. A Christian is someone who does what Jesus commanded, not someone who calls themselves Christian. Jesus said it was not the one who calls me Lord but the one who does what I command. Diana is the Christian.

 

[Publius]

I did mention that Elizabeth is a Christian.

Yes, you did claim that she is a Christian. However, you then went on to describe her as someone who is not a Christian.

Catholicism is an older branch of Christianity and has the sacrament of penance, which Protestant churches reject.

Yes, many people believe Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. But then, you're also the one who claimed Elizabeth is a Christian.

Do you think Diana is the better person then, as an atheist?

No.

 

[Sketcher]

I don't know. You tell me.

I honestly don't think any Christians exist that fit her profile. I didn't have such a cavalier attitude about blasphemy since my pre-Christian days. It's one thing to have a persistent sin habit in your life, but what you described is beyond the pale. The Spirit will stop you from that level of sheer irreverence. Keep in mind that being born into a Christian family does not make one Christian, nor does going to church occasionally. It takes being born again to be a Christian, and once that happens, you will not live like this Elizabeth person. The Spirit will indwell you and stop you before you get there.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Have you ever heard of empathy and compassion? Perhaps, Diana feels empathy and compassion for the people around her. Diana respects and obeys her parents out of love. She knows that her parents means well and wants the best for her, and she loves them in return. Diana donates to charities, because seeing people suffer makes her sad, and charities alleviate the suffering, as long as the charities themselves do not engage in discrimination of social groups when helping people.

I don't think feeling sorry for others is enough to qualify someone as being a better person. It's an emotion - suffering is an emotion too. Morality is more than just doing what makes you feel nice.

Diana may be a "spiritual but not religious" person.

An atheist cannot be spiritual but not religious. Atheism rejects the concept of anything supernatural or outside the material world.

 

[Hestha]

Hestha,

Are you thinking the Christian faith teaches that God reconciles people to himself solely for making them better or that the desire to be a better person is the sole attraction of Christian faith? (Not being rhetorical here; really trying to understand the thinking behind the question.)

I am reading the Book of Romans right now, and it appears to me that Paul is criticizing the Romans around him for not following his god. Paul is preaching the gospel to the Romans, acting all self-righteous as if he knows better. I really do not like Paul as a character. He seems to say, "Ha-ha! You are evil. Now follow Christ." However, I do think Christians act just like Paul when "sharing" the gospel or preaching the gospel to non-Christians: they act superior to everybody else and try to advertise the Christian faith. So yes, the Christian faith teaches that God reconciles people to himself solely for making them "better". And yes, the desire to be a "better" person is the sole attraction of the Christian faith for the gullible individual. What I am saying is, if a Christian wants to convince people that Christianity is the "one true faith", then he or she must do more than just trying to say "you are evil. Because of this, come to Christ. Christ can forgive you of your past sins and make you a better person, as long as you do what Christ commands."

Elizabeth is not a Christian. A Christian is someone who does what Jesus commanded, not someone who calls themselves Christian. Jesus said it was not the one who calls me Lord but the one who does what I command. Diana is the Christian.

No, Diana is the atheist. But she is the better person. Do you agree?

No.

Diana is not the better person? How come?

I don't think feeling sorry for others is enough to qualify someone as being a better person. It's an emotion - suffering is an emotion too. Morality is more than just doing what makes you feel nice.

OK. So, how do you define morality?

 

[98cwitr]

Elizabeth is not a Christian /thread

Matthew 7

16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 25

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

Luke 6

46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

 

[bling]

I am reading the Book of Romans right now, and it appears to me that Paul is criticizing the Romans around him for not following his god. Paul is preaching the gospel to the Romans, acting all self-righteous as if he knows better. I really do not like Paul as a character. He seems to say, "Ha-ha! You are evil. Now follow Christ." However, I do think Christians act just like Paul when "sharing" the gospel or preaching the gospel to non-Christians: they act superior to everybody else and try to advertise the Christian faith. So yes, the Christian faith teaches that God reconciles people to himself solely for making them "better". And yes, the desire to be a "better" person is the sole attraction of the Christian faith for the gullible individual. What I am saying is, if a Christian wants to convince people that Christianity is the "one true faith", then he or she must do more than just trying to say "you are evil. Because of this, come to Christ. Christ can forgive you of your past sins and make you a better person, as long as you do what Christ commands."

First off: Romans is written to Jews and gentiles Christians and never addresses non-Christians directly. Paul does get on his fellow Jewish Christian Brother’s case about feeling and acting superior to the Gentile Christians and their trying to force the gentile Christians to be Jewish. For the most part if non Christians are doing terrible sinning; that is what they should and will be doing, since they are not Christians.

I definitely agree we should not try to “sell” people on a bunch of words, but should be showing the non-believer Love (which is introducing them to God/Christ who are Love). We are trying to sell people on Love which is selling people on Christ. Paul is not trying to say the non-believer should be better, but should become a Christian to be better.

Paul was the chief of sinners (by his own words)and by God’s grace was forgiven, so if anyone is less than the chief sinner, he is better than Paul and more “deserving” of being saved than Paul. In other words, we are all equal, just some have humbly accepted God’s charity and the rest have not yet accepted god’s charity, but hopefully will.

No, Diana is the atheist. But she is the better person. Do you agree?

Actually, using the first century definition “Christian” is a descriptive term used by pagans to describe Christ like people and not some title, so Diana might be called a “Christian” by that definition.

Is Diana trying to lead people away from the truth?

Is Diana’s love just some emotion or is it something she has thought out?
Does she have a logical reason?

 

[brinny]

I am going to create two persons, and I am going to ask you to judge who is the better person to you.

Elizabeth is a Christian. But she blasphemes against God without care, commits heresy against her church, disobeys her parents, steals candies from young children, feels completely thankless when someone gives her something, and likes to boss people around. She confesses her sins in front a priest. But she returns to doing her evil deeds.

Diana is an atheist. She denies the existence of gods and the supernatural, but gives respect to those who believe in such things by not committing blasphemy or heresy in front of Christians. She obeys and respects her parents. She donates to charities. She is very grateful for what she has and feels very blessed to have a good family and a good life. Plus, she is humble around others. When she makes a mistake, she feels sorry and promises to the one that she has hurt that she would never make the same mistake again!

Now, who is the better person?

Neither. it is written that none are righteous, no not one. Only Jesus Who died for our sins is. That is why He was able to wash our sins away, because He was the spotless Lamb of God.

 

[elman]

Neither. it is written that none are righteous, no not one. Only Jesus Who died for our sins is. That is why He was able to wash our sins away, because He was the spotless Lamb of God.

It is written that none are righteous but that is not literally true. Job was a righteous man. Ezekiel talked about righteous people and said they would live and not die. Ezekiel 18. The Good Samaritan was righteouse. The sheep in Matt 25 were righteous.

 

[Live In Stereo]

God does not look at the outward appearance, so how someone behaves is not a factor to him. 1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. Both people you illustrated with are sinners before God as these verses say:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Both you mentioned are in all have sinned.
The difference between the 2 people is this: 1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar;( one has not believed God and they are a liar according to Him.) because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Now as another poster wrote some that say they are christian- and not all that say it are as these prior verses. christian can mean many things these days. you must believe as these verses state and turn from your own "works. Be they good before men or bad. You must believe the gospel that as stated prior Jesus Christ is the only way. His death on the cross as your personal sin sacrifice or God's wrath bides on you and you will die in your sins no matter how "good" you appear before man. If the one calling herself a Christian has the Son of God by belief dwelling in her heart, no matter her sin God has called her "good" because he is good and has given her his goodness and justified her. If you have God inside you in the Holy spirit, no matter what you are the better person. The other is dead in trespasses and sins. nothing they do will help. Before God any good they do is dead. That is the way it is like it or not. You will answer for yourself to him, not by comparing your self against any other person, Christian or not. You must have the Son of God or nothing counts in God's court. Say you murder, just because you have not murdered many times, you still get the death penalty for the one. The times you did not do not help you at all.

 

[Harry3142]

Hestha-

"Just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar doesn't make it a cookie."

Elizabeth's actions betray her as what we call 'unregenerate'. She has not truly accepted Christ as her personal Lord and savior, and has no intention of living the life that a Christian is supposed to live. But for some reason, whether out of a desire to have others see her as better than she really is, or for another motive, she is willing to 'go through the motions'.

On the other hand Diana has the empathy and compassion for others that Jesus Christ himself told his disciples that he expected of them (Matthew 25:31-46). She feels their pain, and does what she can to alleviate their suffering. She's willing to go the extra mile, and does not shrink from the work she sees in front of her. So why is she not a Christian, since she has the motivations already that a Christian should have?

It's entirely possible that she is still an atheist because that is where God wants her to be at this time in her life. The churches where she is may not be inciting their members into alleviating the suffering that they have in that area, so God has chosen to keep her away from them so that she can get the work done which they are supposed to do, but are failing to accomplish. The churches may even be telling their members that the suffering they see around them is the wrath of God, so those members are to do nothing to alleviate it (Don't laugh; i've had different people who claimed to be Christians tell me this exact excuse for denying aid to others). God wants people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and go to work giving aid to others. Pietism and elitism has no place in Christianity.

At some time in the future God will in all likelihood call her. But with what she has accomplished, his call will not be to accept in abject obedience the leadership of those who have failed to do the work which she has completed. Instead, wherever God calls her to be, she will enter that church as a leader rather than a follower.

As for Romans, here are some passages which are the main focus of that book:

Romans 3:19-5:10. The righteousness which we need for salvation is a righteousness which God is willing to give us freely.

Romans 10:5-13. Our salvation is based not on what we do, but rather on what we accept as fact. If we accept that Jesus Christ did indeed die for our sins, and was indeed resurrected, then we will be saved.

Romans 12:9-21. Love one another. Do not be conceited. Do what is right toward friend and enemy alike. Live at peace with everyone if at all possible. Do not seek revenge when wronged.

Another passage written by St. Paul, but not located in Romans, is Galatians 5:16-26. I call it 'The Christians Code of Conduct'. You should find it interesting reading, as it deals with which motivations are to be shunned as leading to the commission of sinful words and actions, and which motivations are to be welcomed as leading to the performance of righteous words and actions. Using that 'yardstick' Elizabeth is shown for what she really is, and Diana is pointed out as one who is already using 'the fruit of the Spirit' as the impetus for her actions.

God bless-

 

[ViaCrucis]

Subjectively, Diana is a better person.

Objectively, there is no such thing as better persons.

-CryptoLutheran