Who Has Faith?

[Optimax]

As the rules say this one is for any discussion.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm interested in this thread. I will be keeping up with it. Not sure I agree still with the idea that all faith comes from God for that implies a lot of stuff that seems cotradictory to scripture and even the nature of God.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

For instance...

God wants all people to be saved (2 Peter 3:9)...

Well if one has to have faith to be saved and if faith came from God, then God wanting all to be saved would grant faith to all so all would indeed be so.

That is just one seeming contradiction. But as I said, I will watch and read. I won't post any further past this point to avoid turning your gallery thread into a debate. I know some are chomping at the bit to get at me. Good thread topic Opti, look forward to it!

 

[Optimax]

For instance...

God wants all people to be saved (2 Peter 3:9)...

Well if one has to have faith to be saved and if faith came from God, then God wanting all to be saved would grant faith to all so all would indeed be so.

That is just one seeming contradiction. But as I said, I will watch and read. I won't post any further past this point to avoid turning your gallery thread into a debate. I know some are chomping at the bit to get at me. Good thread topic Opti, look forward to it!

Do not be deceived.

This thread is about faith.

This thread is not about you.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Do not be deceived.

This thread is about faith.

This thread is not about you.

(Just to clarify)

I only mentioned the debate thing because some seem to follow me to argue my questions and comments... I know you well enough (from our interactions) to know you didn't start this thread about me or my comments. I look forward to reading what you have to say on the subject

 

[ByTheSpirit]

So I don't agree with the whole natural faith vs. scriptural faith idea you present. Using your own analogy:

When I get on a plane to fly somewhere, I have no idea if that plane is going to get from point A to point B without falling. That is not natural faith because you have no proof what you hope in will happen. You indeed hope the plane does get to its destination safely, but its not natural faith. The very idea of faith is believing without evidence/proof. That goes against the 5 senses.

For instance, science says the world big banged its way into existence because what they OBSERVE in other galaxies, etc. They say all life evolved because of OBSERVATIONS made. Those go within the 5 senses and are not associated with faith. I can touch a ball with my eyes closed and know it is a ball because I have felt it. If you held it behind your back and told me to close my eyes, then I could only guess what lt was and believe I am correct in guessing.

Faith goes against the physical senses. I don't see a variation of faith, it is what it is. So sorry, I don't agree

Hebrews 11:1
Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just to prove my point this is from dictionary.com on faith:

(link here: Faith | Define Faith at Dictionary.com )

2. believing without proof


Now perhaps I just misunderstood you...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As the rules say this one is for any discussion.

Simple - One HAS FAITH when he/she KNOWS in his/her HEART - NOTHING DOUBTING - just what God is doing, (Mark 11:22-24).

I'll give my favorite illustration - from 40 years ago.

In my Bible study is a dying man - Cancer - hospital sent him home with a barrel of SERIOUS Pain killers to die, since NOTHING worked. He's NOT "Full Gospel" and none of his family is either - they're all United Church of Christ (Not the Campbellite denomination). ABout as "Liberal" a bunch as you could find.

And his MOTHER announces to us in the study that GOD HAS TOLD HER that her son is being healed, and will NOT die, and asks us to join her in THANKING GOD for His provision of healing. NOT to pray for his healing - no need to - she ALREADY KNOWS that it's happening.

That's "Biblical FAITH" in a nutshell.

Belief has got to be held onto, and defended,
Hope Doen't really KNOW what's gonna happen
But FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of the thing not seen.(Heb 11:1) And it comes by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD OF GOD. (Rom 10:17)

All we in the study could "see" was a colorless, hairless, cold to the touch, and weak as a kitten, death warmed over, young man, with a couple of weeks to go at the maximum before they buried him.

His mother, however saw, in FAITH, that he WOULD NOT DIE, but would recover fully. Before ANYTHING CHANGED!!!!

BUT HEY!!!! God heals when it's His will to do so, and so - we Thanked God for His provision - without any REAL conviction that Mom wasn't delusional. When you "See a need" it's EASY to "Hear a voice", after all.

And then he "just got better" and within a few weeks we had confidence that God REALLY WAS doing something - BUt Mom was surprised at all - she knew all along in FAITH that the "Deed was already done" - because God had TOLD HER it was. 6 months later the Hospital proclaimed the He was "Cancer free", and they couldn't explain it, and 30 years later (the last time I heard) he was fine, and a Deacon in the St Mary's Ohio AoG church.

On the OTHER hand -

I'm dying of A collection of Heart related issues - just got my 17th STENT last week, and the Cardio suggested a "Life Vest" to De-Fib me in case the pump stops unexpectedly since HE thinks my ejection factor is at 35% - considered the BOttom of the acceptable range.

And I Have NO FAITH whatsoever or expectation that God will heal my issues - period. OH, and YES I DO know all the "Healing passages" - have for DECADES.

SO I can't do what the mother did - because I DON'T KNOW what God will do in my case - so there's NOTHING to claim.

I Have perfect FAITH that things are O.K., and Death isn't a problem whenever it happens. And of course after 13 heart attacks, two open-hearts, and a bucket of angioplasties - I'm still working full time as the Chief Engineer for a manufacturing plant, and it's my suspicion that God HAS "something to do with keeping me going".

FAITH can be a very SPECIFIC thing sometimes, and can just be GENERAL Confidence in God when it's not. Shadrack % Co. did the RIGHT THING in FAITH when they told the King they weren't bowing to his lousy idol - but they had NO IDEA what was going to happen in the furnace (but were pleasantly surprised at the way it all turned out).

 

[murjahel]

quote from your teaching thread...

Jesus said to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing”.
27 Then saith he to Thomas , Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Thomas believed when he was able to verify through his physical senses that Jesus was still around.​

Thomas saw Jesus.
Thomas touched Jesus’ hands and side where He was wounded.
Then Thomas believed.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas , because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. KJV
Jesus said that those who believe without seeing are blessed.
Believing without seeing is “scriptural faith”
Scriptural faith is not learned through the five physical senses.​

end of quote


Great thread, and I agree, Optimax, with your presentation on this oft misunderstood but basic truth we need vitally to understand better...

Whether Thomas touched the wounds, or not, is not clear. Some, as you do, believe he did, I have always believed that the faith came with just seeing the Lord... and he no longer needed to literally feel the wounds to be sure, but his faith was supernaturally strong. He actually was so strong, that he became the first to put the name 'God' to Jesus...

How strong his 'supernatural faith' became, just by the meeting with Jesus... nothing more, in my opinion, was necessary... of course, some do think he did touch the Lord's wounds... be that as it may... there was 'supernatural faith' that came upon him...


Whether he did feel the nail prints
and the spear wound in the side is not stated.
He was the first to give the title of God to Jesus,
other than the prophets in predicting these events
Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Simple - One HAS FAITH when he/she KNOWS in his/her HEART - NOTHING DOUBTING - just what God is doing, (Mark 11:22-24).

I'll give my favorite illustration - from 40 years ago.

In my Bible study is a dying man - Cancer - hospital sent him home with a barrel of SERIOUS Pain killers to die, since NOTHING worked. He's NOT "Full Gospel" and none of his family is either - they're all United Church of Christ (Not the Campbellite denomination). ABout as "Liberal" a bunch as you could find.

And his MOTHER announces to us in the study that GOD HAS TOLD HER that her son is being healed, and will NOT die, and asks us to join her in THANKING GOD for His provision of healing. NOT to pray for his healing - no need to - she ALREADY KNOWS that it's happening.

That's "Biblical FAITH" in a nutshell.

Belief has got to be held onto, and defended,
Hope Doen't really KNOW what's gonna happen
But FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of the thing not seen.(Heb 11:1) And it comes by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD OF GOD. (Rom 10:17)

All we in the study could "see" was a colorless, hairless, cold to the touch, and weak as a kitten, death warmed over, young man, with a couple of weeks to go at the maximum before they buried him.

His mother, however saw, in FAITH, that he WOULD NOT DIE, but would recover fully. Before ANYTHING CHANGED!!!!

BUT HEY!!!! God heals when it's His will to do so, and so - we Thanked God for His provision - without any REAL conviction that Mom wasn't delusional. When you "See a need" it's EASY to "Hear a voice", after all.

And then he "just got better" and within a few weeks we had confidence that God REALLY WAS doing something - BUt Mom was surprised at all - she knew all along in FAITH that the "Deed was already done" - because God had TOLD HER it was. 6 months later the Hospital proclaimed the He was "Cancer free", and they couldn't explain it, and 30 years later (the last time I heard) he was fine, and a Deacon in the St Mary's Ohio AoG church.

On the OTHER hand -

I'm dying of A collection of Heart related issues - just got my 17th STENT last week, and the Cardio suggested a "Life Vest" to De-Fib me in case the pump stops unexpectedly since HE thinks my ejection factor is at 35% - considered the BOttom of the acceptable range.

And I Have NO FAITH whatsoever or expectation that God will heal my issues - period. OH, and YES I DO know all the "Healing passages" - have for DECADES.

SO I can't do what the mother did - because I DON'T KNOW what God will do in my case - so there's NOTHING to claim.

I Have perfect FAITH that things are O.K., and Death isn't a problem whenever it happens. And of course after 13 heart attacks, two open-hearts, and a bucket of angioplasties - I'm still working full time as the Chief Engineer for a manufacturing plant, and it's my suspicion that God HAS "something to do with keeping me going".

FAITH can be a very SPECIFIC thing sometimes, and can just be GENERAL Confidence in God when it's not. Shadrack % Co. did the RIGHT THING in FAITH when they told the King they weren't bowing to his lousy idol - but they had NO IDEA what was going to happen in the furnace (but were pleasantly surprised at the way it all turned out).

Bob I will join in prayer for you and your loved ones. Good post BTW

 

[TillICollapse]

I believe I've posted about this previously in a thread last year at some point, however it's my conviction that faith and belief are two separate things. They are not mutually exclusive, but they are separate things that a person can have.

Faith, I may argue, is a spiritual substance. IOW, not everyone may have faith, for any variety of reasons. It is a spiritual element that a person may have, and this element is almost like a spiritual muscle. Use it, and one may grow spiritually stronger, etc and so forth. Don't use it, and one may waste away or be stunted. Faith can fuel belief, so in that sense, the two can have a relationship.

Belief is something anyone can have who has a mind and an ability to rationalize something mentally. Anyone can believe anything, in other words. Since the mind is part of the physical brain, you can damage the physical brain and this will effect a person's belief. Consider someone with brain trauma, dementia, various types of mental illness or disease, etc and so forth. They may start to believe things not based in reality for example. Belief can be fueled by any number of inputs or methods to come to the conclusions one believes: empirical evidence based, feelings, thoughts, observations, hunches, denial, theoretical, and spiritual, etc. Sometimes a person's beliefs may be in line with the truth, sometimes not. Just because someone's stated belief aligns with the truth, doesn't necessarily mean they came about that belief soundly either (lucky guesses, for example, or deception).

So I would say belief is mostly done through personal reasoning, where as faith is a substance of some spiritual "something" that arguably even exists after death. Belief may vanish upon death as the brain dies. So while everyone may not have faith, most have an ability to form beliefs at some point in their life, even rudimentary ones.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I believe I've posted about this previously in a thread last year at some point, however it's my conviction that faith and belief are two separate things. They are not mutually exclusive, but they are separate things that a person can have.

Faith, I may argue, is a spiritual substance. IOW, not everyone may have faith, for any variety of reasons. It is a spiritual element that a person may have, and this element is almost like a spiritual muscle. Use it, and one may grow spiritually stronger, etc and so forth. Don't use it, and one may waste away or be stunted. Faith can fuel belief, so in that sense, the two can have a relationship.

Belief is something anyone can have who has a mind and an ability to rationalize something mentally. Anyone can believe anything, in other words. Since the mind is part of the physical brain, you can damage the physical brain and this will effect a person's belief. Consider someone with brain trauma, dementia, various types of mental illness or disease, etc and so forth. They may start to believe things not based in reality for example. Belief can be fueled by any number of inputs or methods to come to the conclusions one believes: empirical evidence based, feelings, thoughts, observations, hunches, denial, theoretical, and spiritual, etc. Sometimes a person's beliefs may be in line with the truth, sometimes not. Just because someone's stated belief aligns with the truth, doesn't necessarily mean they came about that belief soundly either (lucky guesses, for example, or deception).

So I would say belief is mostly done through personal reasoning, where as faith is a substance of some spiritual "something" that arguably even exists after death. Belief may vanish upon death as the brain dies. So while everyone may not have faith, most have an ability to form beliefs at some point in their life, even rudimentary ones.

Interesting . I had always heard that scripturally speaking, belief is the action of faith. Even the Greek words denote faith is a noun while believing is a verb. So "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" would literally mean in that context: Have faith in Jesus the Messiah and make him Lord of your life and you will be saved."

 

[TillICollapse]

Interesting . I had always heard that scripturally speaking, belief is the action of faith. Even the Greek words denote faith is a noun while believing is a verb. So "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" would literally mean in that context: Have faith in Jesus the Messiah and make him Lord of your life and you will be saved."

I would say that belief can be the result of any number of influences, faith included. Belief can be the result of denial, cognitive dissonance, etc, for example.

Belief being an ACTION of faith ... well, I'd have to think about that in the context of "action" as it relates to the types of things faith is capable of helping to produce in a person (i.e. fruit, "works", etc).

 

[Optimax]

Faith “comes” or is set in motion by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. KJV

Now we have the foundation for scriptural faith.

1. God gave to every man faith.
2. Faith “comes” or is set in motion by hearing the word of God.
3. Faith acts on what is said.

Scriptural faith is believing what God said.

When a person hears the word of God.

The faith that is already in them “comes” or is set in motion.

At this “point”, there are several things that can happen.

The person will have an impulse to act on the word that was heard.

The person will start to act.

However many if not most will stop because of one fear or another.

Perhaps we will break down those fears later, perhaps not.

If that fear is not overcome, either immediately or later.

That person will “put the brakes on” and stop faith in its tracks.

A person can stop out of fear, but after rereading, re-thinking, can put their faith in motion again.

 

[Alithis]

Faith “comes” or is set in motion by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. KJV

Now we have the foundation for scriptural faith.

1. God gave to every man faith.
2. Faith “comes” or is set in motion by hearing the word of God.
3. Faith acts on what is said.

Scriptural faith is believing what God said.

When a person hears the word of God.

The faith that is already in them “comes” or is set in motion.

At this “point”, there are several things that can happen.

The person will have an impulse to act on the word that was heard.

The person will start to act.

However many if not most will stop because of one fear or another.

Perhaps we will break down those fears later, perhaps not.

If that fear is not overcome, either immediately or later.

That person will “put the brakes on” and stop faith in its tracks.

A person can stop out of fear, but after rereading, re-thinking, can put their faith in motion again.

that would be summed up perhaps by ." not entering in due to unbelief " ..

(i have no peanuts to throw btw )

 

[Optimax]

that would be summed up perhaps by ." not entering in due to unbelief " ..

(i have no peanuts to throw btw )

As you said "not entering in due to unbelief" is a major faith stopper.

Unbelief springs from doubt.

What God said is true, it is reality.

Yet some stumble because their feelings, emotions, and what it looks like, does not support what the word of God says.

We walk by faith (believing and speaking in agreement with God), not by sight.

 

[Alithis]

As you said "not entering in due to unbelief" is a major faith stopper.

Unbelief springs from doubt.

What God said is true, it is reality.

Yet some stumble because their feelings, emotions, and what it looks like, does not support what the word of God says.

We walk by faith (believing and speaking in agreement with God), not by sight.

yes thats the truth . i would like to word it ."we are supposed to walk by FAITH and not by sight ... " but thus far few do ..

i think saying that may upset some but i always measure myself againt those who HAVE gone before us ... wigglesworth for instance .. he walked by faith not by sight ..so in comparison.. i'm not doing so ... and using that kind of measure .,extremely few are doing so..

but i'm always encouraged by the biography of C finny when the lord asked him if he was willing to give up all ... (i need to refresh the wording, it was so long ago i read it ) and finny struggled greatly ... and the the Holy spirit said to his heart..." are you willing to be made willing ?... and to this finny was able to say yes lord ..and he had a mighty encounter with the Lord .

so while i say "i'm not living by faith alone and not by sight"..im still encouraged greatly that what i cannot find in myself to do .. God is able to do in me as i learn to listen to him and obey him

 

[Optimax]

Originally Posted by Optimax View Post

I cannot give you a dollar, if I do not have a dollar.

I would have to have a dollar in order to give it.

The Bible says That God gave every man the measure of faith.

One cannot give something that one does not have.

God had to have faith before He could give "man" faith.


Question ask by "ToBeBlessed
What would God, the creator of all that is, need to have faith about or for? He is all. The Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

 

[Optimax]

Originally Posted by Optimax View Post

I cannot give you a dollar, if I do not have a dollar.

I would have to have a dollar in order to give it.

The Bible says That God gave every man the measure of faith.

One cannot give something that one does not have.

God had to have faith before He could give "man" faith.


Question ask by "ToBeBlessed
What would God, the creator of all that is, need to have faith about or for? He is all. The Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

Remember when God created the heavens and earth?

In Genesis God created the heavens and earth.

Gen 1:1
1:1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. KJV

We learn from the following verses and others not quoted here that God created by speaking.

Gen 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. KJV

Gen 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. KJV

Gen 1:9
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. KJV

Gen 1:11
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. KJV

Gen 1:14-15
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. KJV

What God said came to pass.

Notice the verses that say "and it was so".

What God spoke.

God believed what He spoke would come to pass.

That shows that God creates by faith.

He believes and speaks.

We do the same thing on a much smaller scale.

2 Cor 4:13
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; KJV

 

[Scottmcc1]

Originally Posted by Optimax View Post

I cannot give you a dollar, if I do not have a dollar.

I would have to have a dollar in order to give it.

The Bible says That God gave every man the measure of faith.

One cannot give something that one does not have.

God had to have faith before He could give "man" faith.


Question ask by "ToBeBlessed
What would God, the creator of all that is, need to have faith about or for? He is all. The Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.