Which one are You?

[jimmyjimmy]

There are two types of people, those who understand that salvation is permanent and unshakable, and those who don't.

People who understand that salvation is a gift of God, granted by grace, through faith, understand that salvation can't be lost.

People who, in whole or part, think that their obedience or adherence to moral or ceremonial laws is what ensures their salvation, understand that it can be lost.

What separates the two groups is faith and works. Which one are you, and why?

 

[brinny]

Perhaps the question is dependent upon if one truly WANTS to be saved?

 

[abysmul]

What about those that fall into :

3. None of the above.

 

[Ken Rank]

There are two types of people, those who understand that salvation is permanent and unshakable, and those who don't.

People who understand that salvation is a gift of God, granted by grace, through faith, understand that salvation can't be lost.

People who, in whole or part, think that their obedience or adherence to moral or ceremonial laws is what ensures their salvation, understand that it can be lost.

What separates the two groups is faith and works. Which one are you, and why?

I am an elder at a congregation that eats biblically clean, keeps the Feasts (as best we can living in Kentucky) and so forth... but I don't personally know ANYONE who thinks we are saved by anything we DO other than our faith. Salvation is a gift from God... a GIFT... we just don't happen to believe that GIFT abrogates His commandments. But we don't do them to gain favor, we don't do them to earn anything... we just do them because we see them as His will. If you (anyone) doesn't, that's fine... that is between you and Him not you and I. This is what I believe, this is how we practice... but it is NOT "unto salvation" NOT.

It is so frustrating at times because inevitably if I say, "obey" others only HEAR, "unto salvation" when that is not even a passing thought. It will happen in this thread... somebody will stop reading after the first paragraph and address our keeping the feasts or eating cleanly. Blessings.

 

[Dave-W]

There are two types of people, those who understand that salvation is permanent and unshakable, and those who don't.

I would put it more this way:

There are two types of people, those who believe that salvation is permanent and unshakable, and those who take the biblical warnings against falling away seriously.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Perhaps the question is dependent upon if one truly WANTS to be saved?

I didn't want to be saved. I was 17, and having a blast wallowing in my sin. I wasn't searching for God.

Like a lost coin, He searched for and found me.

 

[brinny]

I didn't want to be saved. I was 17, and having a blast wallowing in my sin. I wasn't searching for God.

Like a lost coin, He searched for and found me.

Are you glad He did?

 

[Dave-W]

It is so frustrating at times because inevitably if I say, "obey" others only HEAR, "unto salvation" when that is not even a passing thought.

I have heard that over and over as well.

AFAICT, that comes from a lack of solid biblical teaching resulting in an idea that EVERYTHING in the bible is about "getting saved."

From what I have seen, about 10% of the NT is dealing with salvation and the other 90% is about how to live AFTER salvation. It is like needing a bath because you are filthy, taking the bath to get clean; and then living the rest of your life sitting in the bathtub.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I am an elder at a congregation that eats biblically clean, keeps the Feasts (as best we can living in Kentucky) and so forth... but I don't personally know ANYONE who thinks we are saved by anything we DO other than our faith. Salvation is a gift from God... a GIFT... we just don't happen to believe that GIFT abrogates His commandments. But we don't do them to gain favor, we don't do them to earn anything... we just do them because we see them as His will. If you (anyone) doesn't, that's fine... that is between you and Him not you and I. This is what I believe, this is how we practice... but it is NOT "unto salvation" NOT.

It is so frustrating at times because inevitably if I say, "obey" others only HEAR, "unto salvation" when that is not even a passing thought. It will happen in this thread... somebody will stop reading after the first paragraph and address our keeping the feasts or eating cleanly. Blessings.

I won't call what you do into question, though I could.

For now I'll ask: Did the Pharisees think that were doing anything wrong, or did they think that were "eating clean" and obeying God?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Are you glad He did?

 

[Ken Rank]

I have heard that over and over as well.

AFAICT, that comes from a lack of solid biblical teaching resulting in an idea that EVERYTHING in the bible is about "getting saved."

From what I have seen, about 10% of the NT is dealing with salvation and the other 90% is about how to live AFTER salvation.

Even verses we are raised to THINK are CLEARLY about salvation, are not. Romans 9:27 is quoting Isaiah 10:22 after the Romans passage quotes verses from Hosea 1. It is dealing with Israel returning not being eternally saved as we teach it. Christians (mainstream) come to the cross and then pitch a tent and stay there.... when Messiah said to pick up the cross and start walking.

 

[brinny]

LOL!

Then you're not likely to "fall away"?

 

[Ken Rank]

I won't call what you do into question, though I could.

Could you Jimmy? It isn't about YOU so YOU can call whatever you want into question. We do as we believe Father leads us to do you. I am certain I have SOME things right, I am certain you have SOME things right, and I am certain we both have MANY things we think are right and are not. Yeshua is coming to RESTORE which means things, including us, are not perfect.

For now I'll ask: Did the Pharisees think that were doing anything wrong, or did they think that were "eating clean" and obeying God?

I don't understand your question... and which Pharisees are you talking about? There were two sects of them, two schools with one teaching the letter of the law and the other teaching the spirit of it.

And I ask you, was being a Pharisee a bad thing?

 

[Dave-W]

which Pharisees are you talking about? There were two sects of them, two schools with one teaching the letter of the law and the other teaching the spirit of it.

Not sure I would quite cast them in that light. For sure the Shammai School Pharisees were hard-nosed legalists while those from Hillel's schools were considered rather liberal. Paul was from the latter, and much of our Lord's teaching seemed to reflect Hillel's teachings as well. Those who opposed HIM seemed to reflect Shammai's teachings.

But is it not interesting that James the Brother of the Lord (author of the NT book and sr pastor of Jerusalem church) was also a Rosh Yeshiva - most likely at the Shammai school. (since Gamaliel was still at the Hillel school)

 

[Dave-W]

And I ask you, was being a Pharisee a bad thing?

That is a loaded question for most christians.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Could you Jimmy? It isn't about YOU so YOU can call whatever you want into question. We do as we believe Father leads us to do you. I am certain I have SOME things right, I am certain you have SOME things right, and I am certain we both have MANY things we think are right and are not. Yeshua is coming to RESTORE which means things, including us, are not perfect.



I don't understand your question... and which Pharisees are you talking about? There were two sects of them, two schools with one teaching the letter of the law and the other teaching the spirit of it.

And I ask you, was being a Pharisee a bad thing?

[Staff edit]

What I mean was that I disagree with your practices, so I could focus on that, but I won't, at this time.

Jesus didn't distinguish between groups of Pharisees, so I won't either.

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20)

 

[Ken Rank]

What I mean was that I disagree with your practices, so I could focus on that, but I won't, at this time.

Jesus didn't distinguish between groups of Pharisees, so I won't either.

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20)

[Staff edit]

Yeshua did distinguish in how he dealt with Pharisees. @DaveW-Ohev is correct in that Hillel's school (where Paul went) was liberal... but in modern terms, not "alt-left" whereas, again, in modern terms, Shamai WAS probably more alt-right.

Dave W was also correct, the question I asked you... that you didn't touch, was loaded. Paul said as he stood before his accusers shortly before his death, "I AM a Pharisee." It is very much present tense and if being a Pharisee was a bad thing... and that statement coming after most of his letters had been written... then why the present tense? Why not one last slap at them? The answer is obvious... being a Pharisee isn't bad... being one of the hypocrite leaders who saw the whole movement as a threat to their power was.

There is great differentiation between Pharisees, the law, many things... but we are raised in a black and white culture that can't see these things nor does it understand the value in seeing them.

 

[Ken Rank]

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 5:20)

And just because, Jimmy... I want to share something with you. Will you hear it?

The word "righteous" means, "being lawful." You can be righteous following the commandments... you cannot be if you think doing so will save you or gain you any favor. That is one of those little nuances, differentiations I mentioned in my last post. Here is the word in 3 languages...

Hebrew (H6662)
tsaddı̂yq
BDB Definition:
1) just, lawful, righteous

Greek (G1342)
dikaios
Thayer Definition:
1) righteous, observing divine laws

Middle English (around the time of the KJV)
(1828 Webster's)
RIGHTEOUS, a. ri'chus. 1. Just; accordant to the divine law. Applied to persons, it denotes one who is holy in heart, and observant of the divine commands in practice; as a righteous man

Modern English (today)
(Online Webster's)
Righteous - acting in accord with divine or moral law:

So for your righteousness to exceed that of the Pharisees... it means you must walk according to the law in the manner that exceeds their walk. That doesn't do away with the law... it just means doing it as intended, not for favor or salvation but out of LOVE!

 

[Tree of Life]

There are two types of people, those who understand that salvation is permanent and unshakable, and those who don't.

People who understand that salvation is a gift of God, granted by grace, through faith, understand that salvation can't be lost.

People who, in whole or part, think that their obedience or adherence to moral or ceremonial laws is what ensures their salvation, understand that it can be lost.

What separates the two groups is faith and works. Which one are you, and why?

I'm probably of the second variety. But I'm hoping to grow more toward the first every day!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm probably of the second variety. But I'm hoping to grow more toward the first every day!

Great reply!

I think that #2 is the default position of the human heart. The real work for a Christian is to get to position #1, by faith. What follows is true obedience.