Which of these two gospels is most correct?

[ewq1938]

Number one has always seemed to me to be pretty good news

"Can Christians go to Hell?"

How is that pretty good news?

 

[hedrick]

You don't know much about justification (righteousness) in the Old Testament, do you? Perhaps you should do a study on the word tsaddiyq (Strong's H6662).

You’re absolutely right. The OT calls people righteous who live right. Not perfectly, since righteousness includes repenting when necessary. It’s kind of the overall direction of their lives.

The problem, of course, is that Paul specifically says that God treats people with faith as justified.

Righteousness and justification are related but somewhat different words. Justification has slightly different nuances. TDNT says outside Paul “δικαιοσύνη is almost always used in the NT for the right conduct of man which follows the will of God and is pleasing to Him, for rectitude of life before God, for uprightness before His judgment. The fact that the basic relationship to God is always in view, and that it is related to the event of revelation”

In Paul it is more explicitly something ascribed by God. Rom 3:26 says that God justifies the one who has faith.

What Paul is really arguing about is the basis on which we are recognized as God’s people. Thus the question isn’t an evaluation of the individual's life, which would be righteousness, but their inclusion in the covenant. In the OT there are unworthy people who are still part of the covenant people.

However Paul believes that faith won’t allow us to remain as unrighteous. Rom 5 and 6 say that through faith we die with Christ to sin and rise to new life. The next a couple of chapters look at the implications of that.

Incidentally, I connect Paul with Jesus by seeing Paul’s “faith” as being essentially the same as Jesus’ concept of being a follower. Both indicate our primary commitment. This is shown in the direction of our lives. I think one can show that for Jesus also, there's a core commitment corresponding to Paul's faith, out of which behavior flows. I believe Jesus also accepts and forgives his followers even when they sin.

 

[sdowney717]

You’re absolutely right. The OT calls people righteous who live right. Not perfectly, since righteousness includes repenting when necessary. It’s kind of the overall direction of their lives.

The problem, of course, is that Paul specifically says that God treats people with faith as justified.

Righteousness and justification are related but somewhat different words. Justification has slightly different nuances. TDNT says outside Paul “δικαιοσύνη is almost always used in the NT for the right conduct of man which follows the will of God and is pleasing to Him, for rectitude of life before God, for uprightness before His judgment. The fact that the basic relationship to God is always in view, and that it is related to the event of revelation”

In Paul it is more explicitly something ascribed by God. Rom 3:26 says that God justifies the one who has faith.

What Paul is really arguing about is the basis on which we are recognized as God’s people. Thus the question isn’t an evaluation of the individual's life, which would be righteousness, but their inclusion in the covenant. In the OT there are unworthy people who are still part of the covenant people.

However Paul believes that faith won’t allow us to remain as unrighteous. Rom 5 and 6 say that through faith we die with Christ to sin and rise to new life. The next a couple of chapters look at the implications of that.

Incidentally, I connect Paul with Jesus by seeing Paul’s “faith” as being essentially the same as Jesus’ concept of being a follower. Both indicate our primary commitment. This is shown in the direction of our lives. I think one can show that for Jesus also, there's a core commitment corresponding to Paul's faith, out of which behavior flows. I believe Jesus also accepts and forgives his followers even when they sin.

In the wonderful new covenant we have with God, it is unlike the old covenant regarding how it works, that is true, thank God for His mercy towards us in the NC. God has established the NC on much better promises, and He tells us He will no longer remember our sins and our lawless deeds. That is in regard to eternal condemnation they will not be recalled. For we who believe have passed from death into life and will not come under judgement. God writes His laws on our hearts and puts them into our minds, and He says I will be their God, and they shall be my people, as it is written so it is done.

Young's Literal Translation
'Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Hebrews 8
4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, in as much as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Marvin Knox]

"Can Christians go to Hell?"
How is that pretty good news?

No - they cannot - as gospel number 1 says and which I agree with.

That's more than pretty good news. That's excellent news (me being a Christian).

Do you disagree?

 

[Job8]

Anyone who thinks believing is a work, then they must say they are saved by works.

Not necessarily. It is Christ who called believing a "work" ironically. Believing is simply faith.

 

[hedrick]

The Gospel, as far as I can tell, is nothing quite so complex as some of these discussions. Oddly, neither Jesus nor Paul actually defines it. For Jesus it appears to be that he has come to establish the Kingdom, and presumably the availability of God's forgivness (his equivalent of Paul's justification). For Paul it appears to be that Jesus has come to save. Rom 1:16 implies that for him it also meant salvation of anyone who has faith, i.e. that it included freedom from the Law.

 

[ewq1938]

No - they cannot - as gospel number 1 says and which I agree with.

That's more than pretty good news. That's excellent news (me being a Christian).

Do you disagree?

Of course. Christians are sinners and going to hell is very possible if they choose to do wrong for whatever reason. Also, the Apostasy is committed only by Christians, leaving the faith of Christ for a false God.

 

[samir]

"Can Christians go to Hell?"

How is that pretty good news?

If they repent God will forgive them and they will go to Heaven. I consider that good news.

 

[EmSw]

You seem to have misunderstood the basics on justification as the N.T. fleshes it out for us.

The righteous life one lives is a good indicator of the faith one has in God.

But men are not justified before God because of their actions but because of Faith.

That goes for the saints of old such as Abraham and also for the saints of today.

Do you believe God changes?

Good works indicate faith, right? I have always been correct, without works (which indicates no faith), a person is not saved.

 

[EmSw]

Number one has always seemed to me to be pretty good news even though it seems to be foolishness to some.

By all means enlighten us on what is the good news of Jesus Christ.

Not once did you mention His kingdom. Read where Jesus speaks of the gospel. It's about His kingdom.

 

[EmSw]

You seem to have misunderstood the basics on justification as the N.T. fleshes it out for us.

You must be speaking of this verse -

James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[EmSw]

You’re absolutely right. The OT calls people righteous who live right. Not perfectly, since righteousness includes repenting when necessary. It’s kind of the overall direction of their lives.

The problem, of course, is that Paul specifically says that God treats people with faith as justified.

No one is saying the OT saints didn't have faith. James says we are justified by works and not faith only.

Righteousness and justification are related but somewhat different words. Justification has slightly different nuances. TDNT says outside Paul “δικαιοσύνη is almost always used in the NT for the right conduct of man which follows the will of God and is pleasing to Him, for rectitude of life before God, for uprightness before His judgment. The fact that the basic relationship to God is always in view, and that it is related to the event of revelation”

Here is Strong's definition for just (H6662)

just, lawful, righteous

1. just, righteous (in government)
   
   
2. just, right (in one's cause)
   
   
3. just, righteous (in conduct and character)
   
   
4. righteous (as justified and vindicated by God)
   
   
5. right, correct, lawful
   

Just, lawful, correct, and righteous are from the same word. I think #3 above is what we are referring to.

God says He will not justify the wicked (Exodus 23:7). Wickedness is often used in contrast with righteousness in the OT.

In Paul it is more explicitly something ascribed by God. Rom 3:26 says that God justifies the one who has faith.

What Paul is really arguing about is the basis on which we are recognized as God’s people. Thus the question isn’t an evaluation of the individual's life, which would be righteousness, but their inclusion in the covenant. In the OT there are unworthy people who are still part of the covenant people.

Again, we are not talking about OT saints being justified by works only, but in cooperation with their faith.

The covenant was something the people of God were to keep. It wasn't based upon faith only, but on their faith and life.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.

To keep His covenant was to observe it. Only those who kept the covenant and obeyed His voice were special treasures to God above all people. I'm sure many of God's people had faith and believed God's words, but didn't obey His voice. As James tells us, faith without works is dead, just as in the OT.

However Paul believes that faith won’t allow us to remain as unrighteous. Rom 5 and 6 say that through faith we die with Christ to sin and rise to new life. The next a couple of chapters look at the implications of that.

What are the implications of one who dies with Christ, but lives the old life. I've heard so many on here say we still have the old man along with the new man. How does one have the old man when he is supposed to die to it?

Incidentally, I connect Paul with Jesus by seeing Paul’s “faith” as being essentially the same as Jesus’ concept of being a follower. Both indicate our primary commitment. This is shown in the direction of our lives. I think one can show that for Jesus also, there's a core commitment corresponding to Paul's faith, out of which behavior flows. I believe Jesus also accepts and forgives his followers even when they sin.

Being a follower of Jesus is to keep His commandments, along with faith. Again, no one have vaguely suggested faith is not important. Many have said works are not important. Some of us have said both are important and necessary.

 

[EmSw]

Not necessarily. It is Christ who called believing a "work" ironically. Believing is simply faith.

Well then, let's just ignore Jesus' words and believe as we wish.

 

[Job8]

Well then, let's just ignore Jesus' words and believe as we wish.

How about interpreting them properly in the light of the rest of the Bible?

 

[EmSw]

How about interpreting them properly in the light of the rest of the Bible?

First and foremost, Jesus' words were life. You must interpret others' writings by the words of Jesus and not the other way around.

 

[Job8]

First and foremost, Jesus' words were life. You must interpret others' writings by the words of Jesus and not the other way around.

Who said anything about "other writings"? The Bible is the Word of God and the Word of Christ and His words must be interpreted in the light of Scripture. So if we properly interpret what Christ said, He said in essence that genuine faith is what God requires, since good works will not avail.

 

[Marvin Knox]

First and foremost, Jesus' words were life. You must interpret others' writings by the words of Jesus and not the other way around.

All of the scriptures are the Word of God.

Do you disagree with that?

 

[EmSw]

Who said anything about "other writings"? The Bible is the Word of God and the Word of Christ and His words must be interpreted in the light of Scripture. So if we properly interpret what Christ said, He said in essence that genuine faith is what God requires, since good works will not avail.

Wow! Good works will not avail?

Like some on here, John 5 mean nothing.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Doing good is what is required to come forth to the resurrection of life, my friend. Do not trample underfoot the very words of Jesus.

 

[EmSw]

All of the scriptures are the Word of God.

Do you disagree with that?

Jesus is actually the Word of God. Listen to Him!

 

[sdowney717]

Wow! Good works will not avail?

Like some on here, John 5 mean nothing.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Doing good is what is required to come forth to the resurrection of life, my friend. Do not trample underfoot the very words of Jesus.

Have you considered that to Christ doing good, was being faithful over the few little things in your life that He has given you, as well as the big ones?
Matthew 25:21
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 25:23
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 19:17
And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations