Which last trumpet? Which first resurrection?

[Postvieww]

There is one last trumpet and one first resurrection.



Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The trumpet in Matt 24 is the same trumpet as in 1 Corin 15.

Paul said “at the last trump” and Jesus referred to the “great sound of a trumpet” which is immediately after the tribulation. Either they are the same trumpet or Paul’s is not the last.

I am sure someone in effect will try to claim Paul was in error and did not know his first from his last, but the truth is all of these passages harmonize with one another and refer to the same event.



1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Probably no one will disagree 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess. 4 are the same event. Let’s compare them to Matt 24.



Matt 24:31 trumpet which sounds immediately after the tribulation

1 Corin 15:52 the last trump shall sound

1 Thess. 4:16 the trump of God is blown


Matt 24:30 “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven”

1 Thess 4: 17 “together with them in the clouds”


Matt 24:30 Christ appears from heaven

1 Thess 4”16 Christ appears from heaven


I have seen many creative ways to try and separate these passages from one another but all of those arguments fall flat with no compelling evidence.




Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is probably one of the most controversial passages even some post tribbers disagree that this is the last trumpet. That is usually based on the fact they have promoted an order to the book of Revelation that does not allow it to be so.

Let’s look at some evidences it is the last and same trumpet to which Jesus and Paul referred to.

1. It is the last trumpet described in the book of Revelation.



2. The kingdoms become the kingdom of our Lord at this point. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Paul says the kingdoms are delivered up at His coming at the time of the resurrection.



3. The dead are judged and rewards are given to prophets and saints. This does not take place until the resurrection. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.




Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

Who are these referred to that sat upon thrones and judgment was given unto them?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3, Paul said the saints shall judge the world and angels. It is resurrected saints (the church) referred to in the first part of verse 4.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The group referred to in this part of the verse are the tribulation martyrs.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Both groups are described as being in the first resurrection. Since this includes the saints in the FIRST and ONLY resurrection for the righteous dead, that resurrection is after the tribulation at the coming of the Lord and means there had been no previous resurrections before the tribulation or this would not be the first.


1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The resurrection is at “his coming” There is one coming of the Lord yet future in scripture, it is after the tribulation. It is at that time the resurrection and catching up will take place.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


There is one last trumpet and one first resurrection.

They are immediately after the tribulation.

 

[tranquil]

Hmm, I'm glad you accept that the 7th Trumpet is the 'last trumpet'.

The Matthew 24 trumpet is the 1st trumpet. Matthew 24:29 is a reference to the 6th seal which announces that the 'day of the Lord' is arriving.

 

[Postvieww]

Hmm, I'm glad you accept that the 7th Trumpet is the 'last trumpet'.

The Matthew 24 trumpet is the 1st trumpet. Matthew 24:29 is a reference to the 6th seal which announces that the 'day of the Lord' is arriving.

I am also glad we agree on the 7th trumpet being the last, few around here do.

How can Matt 24:31 be the first trumpet since it is immediately after the tribulation? Nothing about the trumpet of Matt. lines up with the first trumpet in Revelation 8:7.Matt 24:31 It is the last trumpet. I partially agree with you I believe the 6th seal is Matt 24:29-31, but I view Revelations order differently than you do

 

[Another Lazarus]

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

the SUN will still be SHINING at the day of rapture
Matt 24 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

People work in the field during DAYLIGHT

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

People grind during DAYLIGHT

Jesus bless u all HalleluYah


The words "Matt 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION" which confused many:

Lets see the original greek version :
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation =eutheos de meta ten thlipsin (in greek)
meta was translated as after but meta also mean "with" in english,
In fact meta was translated as "WITH" much more often in the new Testament.
so the appropriate translation should read
immedately WITH the tribulation

Matt 24:30 Then will appear = koi tote phanesetai (in greek)
tote was translated as then but tote also mean "at that time".
so the more correct translation should read : At that time will appear.


Jesus bless u HalleluYah

 

[DavidPT]

the SUN will still be SHINING at the day of rapture
Matt 24 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

People work in the field during DAYLIGHT

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

People grind during DAYLIGHT

How does that logically work out since it's not daylight worldwide all at the same time? How can the sun be shining worldwide on the day of the rapture? Might be why we should consider the following account as well.


Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This seems to cover the situation worldwide since in some parts of the world it is daytime, while in other parts of the world it is night time. Verse 34 covers the latter, verse 35 and 36 covers the former, rather than claiming the rapture takes place during the day. It obviously will take place during the day and during the night simultaneously.

 

[ebedmelech]

Here's my understanding:

*The 7 trumpets of Revelation represent judgments. The seventh trumpet has nothing to do with the last judgment. It has to do with the judgment which God exercised on Israel in 70 AD.

This falls back to Leviticus 26:14-46. Unfortunately so many don't get the understanding that God is exacting that penalty on Israel for breaking the Old Covenant which was sprinkled with blood by Moses at Exodus 24:3-8.

*Jesus announces Israel's fall at Matthew 23:37-39, which leads to the Olivet discourse. Matthew 24 primarily concerns what will happen to Israel/Jerusalem. Matthew 25 deals primarily with the world after Israel/Jerusalem and ends with Jesus returning to judge the world starting at Matthew 25:31.

*The last judgment is also Rev 20:11-21. It requires no trumpet at all! Jesus will simply return and judge the world in righteousness.

 

[DavidPT]

There is one last trumpet and one first resurrection.



Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


1 Corin 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The trumpet in Matt 24 is the same trumpet as in 1 Corin 15.

Paul said “at the last trump” and Jesus referred to the “great sound of a trumpet” which is immediately after the tribulation. Either they are the same trumpet or Paul’s is not the last.

I am sure someone in effect will try to claim Paul was in error and did not know his first from his last, but the truth is all of these passages harmonize with one another and refer to the same event.



1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Probably no one will disagree 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess. 4 are the same event. Let’s compare them to Matt 24.



Matt 24:31 trumpet which sounds immediately after the tribulation

1 Corin 15:52 the last trump shall sound

1 Thess. 4:16 the trump of God is blown


Matt 24:30 “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven”

1 Thess 4: 17 “together with them in the clouds”


Matt 24:30 Christ appears from heaven

1 Thess 4”16 Christ appears from heaven


I have seen many creative ways to try and separate these passages from one another but all of those arguments fall flat with no compelling evidence.




Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This is probably one of the most controversial passages even some post tribbers disagree that this is the last trumpet. That is usually based on the fact they have promoted an order to the book of Revelation that does not allow it to be so.

Let’s look at some evidences it is the last and same trumpet to which Jesus and Paul referred to.

1. It is the last trumpet described in the book of Revelation.



2. The kingdoms become the kingdom of our Lord at this point. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Paul says the kingdoms are delivered up at His coming at the time of the resurrection.



3. The dead are judged and rewards are given to prophets and saints. This does not take place until the resurrection. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.




Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

Who are these referred to that sat upon thrones and judgment was given unto them?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3, Paul said the saints shall judge the world and angels. It is resurrected saints (the church) referred to in the first part of verse 4.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The group referred to in this part of the verse are the tribulation martyrs.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Both groups are described as being in the first resurrection. Since this includes the saints in the FIRST and ONLY resurrection for the righteous dead, that resurrection is after the tribulation at the coming of the Lord and means there had been no previous resurrections before the tribulation or this would not be the first.


1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The resurrection is at “his coming” There is one coming of the Lord yet future in scripture, it is after the tribulation. It is at that time the resurrection and catching up will take place.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


There is one last trumpet and one first resurrection.

They are immediately after the tribulation.

Can't find anything I might disagree with here. Good post!

 

[DavidPT]

Here's my understanding:

*The 7 trumpets of Revelation represent judgments. The seventh trumpet has nothing to do with the last judgment. It has to do with the judgment which God exercised on Israel in 70 AD.

This falls back to Leviticus 26:14-46. Unfortunately so many don't get the understanding that God is exacting that penalty on Israel for breaking the Old Covenant which was sprinkled with blood by Moses at Exodus 24:3-8.

*Jesus announces Israel's fall at Matthew 23:37-39, which leads to the Olivet discourse. Matthew 24 primarily concerns what will happen to Israel/Jerusalem. Matthew 25 deals primarily with the world after Israel/Jerusalem and ends with Jesus returning to judge the world starting at Matthew 25:31.

*The last judgment is also Rev 20:11-21. It requires no trumpet at all! Jesus will simply return and judge the world in righteousness.

As to the 7th trumpet you of course are free to conclude whatever you wish. But those like me are also free to disagree with what you conclude. Even if the 7th trumpet isn't meaning the last trumpet, applying 70 AD to the 7th trumpet is ludicrous IMO. Note some of the things that occur as of the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

One is to believe as of 70 AD, the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth....that this occurred at that time? Not to mention...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail....that this too can be explained via the events of 70 AD? Don't think so, not even remotely worth considering that the the 7th trumpet can be explained via the events of 70 AD. Believe it all you wish but don't expect anyone with good sense to agree with you.

 

[Riberra]

How does that logically work out since it's not daylight worldwide all at the same time? How can the sun be shining worldwide on the day of the rapture? Might be why we should consider the following account as well.


Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

This seems to cover the situation worldwide since in some parts of the world it is daytime, while in other parts of the world it is night time. Verse 34 covers the latter, verse 35 and 36 covers the former, rather than claiming the rapture takes place during the day. It obviously will take place during the day and during the night simultaneously.

Luke 17:37 tell us the destination of those who will be taken ... HINT:that is not to Heaven.

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Bible tell us where the eagles (fowls) will be gathered together:

Revelation 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[tranquil]

I am also glad we agree on the 7th trumpet being the last, few around here do.

How can Matt 24:31 be the first trumpet since it is immediately after the tribulation? Nothing about the trumpet of Matt. lines up with the first trumpet in Revelation 8:7.Matt 24:31 It is the last trumpet. I partially agree with you I believe the 6th seal is Matt 24:29-31, but I view Revelations order differently than you do

I have only come to understand very recently what I will soon present here. I used to think that the 'tribulation' only started when the Trumpets started, but that is scripturally inaccurate. Hopefully this will tie in with your Michael thread.

In Daniel 7 is the key to understanding the sequence of events.

When Daniel 7's 4th beast arrives, then the 10 horns arrive, then the 11th horn (Daniel 7 little horn) arrives. When the 11th horn arrives, this triggers the seals being opened. The Day of the Lord that is announced in the 6th seal is 'judgement day' upon the 11th horn. we read in Dan 7

8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

[this is the 11th horn]​

9 “As I looked,

thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
​

Basically, Revelation is a court room drama based around Daniel 7. There's so much to unpack here, where to begin.

When is the Daniel 7:10 'court seated'? In Revelation 4. The 24 elders are the Sanhedrin/ religious court. In Daniel 7:10 again, the 'books were opened' - think for a second about 'books' in history, they weren't bound like we understand them today, what is translated as 'books' is really what we call 'scrolls'. Scrolls are closed with - Seals. We open scrolls by breaking Seals.

So, the 11th horn arrives, triggering the 7 seals being opened.
Then the 4th beast is killed at the onset of the Day of the Lord (2nd trumpet's burning mountain). The other 3 beasts have their dominion taken away, but they have their lives extended for 'a season and a time'.

Where else have we heard the phrase 'a season and a time'?

1 Thess 5

1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
​

The 'day of the Lord' brought judgement to the 4th beast, but the rest of the beasts survive for their appointed amount of time going into the 'day of the lord'.

When the trumpets arrive in Revelation, this is when the 'other beasts' have their dominion stripped (which, strictly speaking, only the 4 headed leopard beast was given dominion to be stripped of, the 4th beast was never given dominion) but have their lives extended. The beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-8) is this entity that is given the 'extension of life' for 42 months referenced in Daniel 7:12.

The 'dragon' mentioned in Revelation 13:1-8 is the aforementioned Daniel 7 4th beast: 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

This is the 4th beast (which is also a king Daniel 7:17) that was killed at the onset of the Day of the Lord/ start of the trumpets. Apparently, it is the little horn/ Daniel 7's 11th horn that survived the mortal head wound.

This is neither here nor there I suppose, but going further on into Daniel 12:11-13, we find that the tribulation period is potentially 1290 + 1335 days long, giving us 2625 days, not strictly the '7 year trib' as people like to put forward.

When we look at possible solutions as to why it is this length of time, there is a possible solution in the fact that 42 lunar months + 5 lunar months + 42 lunar months = 2625.5 days (29.5 x 89 =2625.5 days; 1290 + 1335 days = 2625 days) which explains why there is the 5 months mentioned in the 5th trumpet.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 17:37 tell us the destination of those who will be taken ... HINT:that is not to Heaven.

Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The Bible tell us where the eagles (fowls) will be gathered together:

Revelation 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

As to me I don't see the rapture being an indication we are then translated to heaven at that time. So maybe we are on the same page in that regards? I basically see the rapture meaning the dead in Christ rise first as Jesus is descending from heaven, then we who are alive and remain meet Jesus and the risen saints in the air as He and they are descending to earth. Then we, with Jesus, confront the beast and it's armies. IOW Jesus is returning to the earth to stay forever and does not do a u turn back into heaven at the time.

 

[DavidPT]

I have only come to understand very recently what I will soon present here. I used to think that the 'tribulation' only started when the Trumpets started, but that is scripturally inaccurate. Hopefully this will tie in with your Michael thread.

In Daniel 7 is the key to understanding the sequence of events.

When Daniel 7's 4th beast arrives, then the 10 horns arrive, then the 11th horn (Daniel 7 little horn) arrives. When the 11th horn arrives, this triggers the seals being opened. The Day of the Lord that is announced in the 6th seal is 'judgement day' upon the 11th horn. we read in Dan 7

8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

[this is the 11th horn]​

9 “As I looked,

thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
​

Basically, Revelation is a court room drama based around Daniel 7. There's so much to unpack here, where to begin.

When is the Daniel 7:10 'court seated'? In Revelation 4. The 24 elders are the Sanhedrin/ religious court. In Daniel 7:10 again, the 'books were opened' - think for a second about 'books' in history, they weren't bound like we understand them today, what is translated as 'books' is really what we call 'scrolls'. Scrolls are closed with - Seals. We open scrolls by breaking Seals.

So, the 11th horn arrives, triggering the 7 seals being opened.
Then the 4th beast is killed at the onset of the Day of the Lord (2nd trumpet's burning mountain). The other 3 beasts have their dominion taken away, but they have their lives extended for 'a season and a time'.

Where else have we heard the phrase 'a season and a time'?

1 Thess 5

1Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
​

The 'day of the Lord' brought judgement to the 4th beast, but the rest of the beasts survive for their appointed amount of time going into the 'day of the lord'.

When the trumpets arrive in Revelation, this is when the 'other beasts' have their dominion stripped (which, strictly speaking, only the 4 headed leopard beast was given dominion to be stripped of, the 4th beast was never given dominion) but have their lives extended. The beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-8) is this entity that is given the 'extension of life' for 42 months referenced in Daniel 7:12.

The 'dragon' mentioned in Revelation 13:1-8 is the aforementioned Daniel 7 4th beast: 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

This is the 4th beast (which is also a king Daniel 7:17) that was killed at the onset of the Day of the Lord/ start of the trumpets. Apparently, it is the little horn/ Daniel 7's 11th horn that survived the mortal head wound.

This is neither here nor there I suppose, but going further on into Daniel 12:11-13, we find that the tribulation period is potentially 1290 + 1335 days long, giving us 2625 days, not strictly the '7 year trib' as people like to put forward.

When we look at possible solutions as to why it is this length of time, there is a possible solution in the fact that 42 lunar months + 5 lunar months + 42 lunar months = 2625.5 days (29.5 x 89 =2625.5 days; 1290 + 1335 days = 2625 days) which explains why there is the 5 months mentioned in the 5th trumpet.

Speaking for myself I am not familiar with this view at all. But I do find it interesting and worth looking into further.

 

[Riberra]

As to me I don't see the rapture being an indication we are then translated to heaven at that time. So maybe we are on the same page in that regards? I basically see the rapture meaning the dead in Christ rise first as Jesus is descending from heaven, then we who are alive and remain meet Jesus and the risen saints in the air as He and they are descending to earth. Then we, with Jesus, confront the beast and it's armies. IOW Jesus is returning to the earth to stay forever and does not do a u turn back into heaven at the time.

Agree....But Luke 17:34-37 apply to those (those with the mark of the beast)who will be taken by the angels to be killed by Jesus along with the world armies who will be assembled at the Armageddon battlefield Revelation 19:17-21.

While Matthew 24:29-31 describe the caught up and gathering of the elect (Saints) by the angels to meet Jesus in the Air.

Both happening in the same Day... The tares (those with the mark of the Beast) for their physical destruction at Armageddon (they will end in the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgment Revelation 14:9-11) while the elects (Saints) [alive and remain unto the Coming of Jesus]will be granted immortal bodies along with the resurrected Saints and will meet Jesus in the Air.

The LAST TRUMP is described in Matthew 24:31 this is the voice of Jesus -sounding like a great sound of a trumpet- sending His angels to gather the elects.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[ebedmelech]

As to the 7th trumpet you of course are free to conclude whatever you wish. But those like me are also free to disagree with what you conclude. Even if the 7th trumpet isn't meaning the last trumpet, applying 70 AD to the 7th trumpet is ludicrous IMO. Note some of the things that occur as of the 7th trumpet.

Ok.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The first problem you have here is you don't realize this is because Jesus has just accomplished atonement on the cross.

Ever noticed why people don't deal with Matthew 27:50-53? What's going on there? The OT saints are being raised!!! They went with Jesus when He ascended to heaven just as it says.

One is to believe as of 70 AD, the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth....that this occurred at that time? Not to mention...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail....that this too can be explained via the events of 70 AD? Don't think so, not even remotely worth considering that the the 7th trumpet can be explained via the events of 70 AD. Believe it all you wish but don't expect anyone with good sense to agree with you.
As to the 7th trumpet you of course are free to conclude whatever you wish. But those like me are also free to disagree with what you conclude. Even if the 7th trumpet isn't meaning the last trumpet, applying 70 AD to the 7th trumpet is ludicrous IMO. Note some of the things that occur as of the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

One is to believe as of 70 AD, the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth....that this occurred at that time? Not to mention...and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail....that this too can be explained via the events of 70 AD? Don't think so, not even remotely worth considering that the the 7th trumpet can be explained via the events of 70 AD. Believe it all you wish but don't expect anyone with good sense to agree with you.

One has to read and correlate what they read from scripture with scripture.

When one reads Revelation 11:18, 19 you have to have Psalm 2 in mind. That in itself tells you this is not the last judgment. It deals with the fact that Jesus has been installed as Lord, just as He declared in Matthew 28:18. This is why the nations are angry and its is why the temple of God opens in heaven!!! Jesus declared Himself to be the temple...and throughout the NT the church is the temple because the Holy spirit indwells every believer.

Just as Paul and Peter declare the church is built upon Jesus as the cornerstone, the apostles and prophets as the foundation, with believers as living stones.

This is the end of the Old Covenant age. Did you ever read Matthew 27:50-53? When Jesus ascended He took the OT saints with Him to heaven.

So the time that has come is that in which one is absent from the body, present with the Lord if they are saved and those who are spiritually dead are awaiting judgment.

The 7th trumpet announces Christ's reign. Notice that Revelation 11:17 says Christ has "begun to reign". The very thing Christ said in Matthew 28:18...and the same thing Psalm 2 says, and the same thing Hebrews 1 says.

The seventh trumpet already blew!

 

[DavidPT]

Ok.

The first problem you have here is you don't realize this is because Jesus has just accomplished atonement on the cross.

Ever noticed why people don't deal with Matthew 27:50-53? What's going on there? The OT saints are being raised!!! They went with Jesus when He ascended to heaven just as it says.


One has to read and correlate what they read from scripture with scripture.

When one reads Revelation 11:18, 19 you have to have Psalm 2 in mind. That in itself tells you this is not the last judgment. It deals with the fact that Jesus has been installed as Lord, just as He declared in Matthew 28:18. This is why the nations are angry and its is why the temple of God opens in heaven!!! Jesus declared Himself to be the temple...and throughout the NT the church is the temple because the Holy spirit indwells every believer.

Just as Paul and Peter declare the church is built upon Jesus as the cornerstone, the apostles and prophets as the foundation, with believers as living stones.

This is the end of the Old Covenant age. Did you ever read Matthew 27:50-53? When Jesus ascended He took the OT saints with Him to heaven.

So the time that has come is that in which one is absent from the body, present with the Lord if they are saved and those who are spiritually dead are awaiting judgment.

The 7th trumpet announces Christ's reign. Notice that Revelation 11:17 says Christ has "begun to reign". The very thing Christ said in Matthew 28:18...and the same thing Psalm 2 says, and the same thing Hebrews 1 says.

The seventh trumpet already blew!

Let's say that one has found all of this convincing, not that I have though, what about the following per the 7th trumpet?

Revelation 11:19...and an earthquake, and great hail.

The fact you are apparently applying some of the 7th trump in the literal sense, as with the case with Matthew 27:50-53, to remain consistent, an earthquake, and great hail, has to be meaning literally as well. Since you initially stated, unless I misunderstood you, that the 7th trumpet is connected with 70 AD, where is there proof from historic records indicating at that time an earthquake, and great hail, were involved?

Also, if the 7th trumpet has to do with the events of 70 AD, why bring Matthew 27:50-53 into the picture? That's not connected with 70 AD. So you lost me there.

 

[DavidPT]

Agree....But Luke 17:34-37 apply to those (those with the mark of the beast)who will be taken by the angels to be killed by Jesus along with the world armies who will be assembled at the Armageddon battlefield Revelation 19:17-21.

I see us on the same page here, or at least it seems that way. When it speaks of eagles in that passage some take that to mean maybe vultures. And if so, seems to fit perfectly with Rev 19 and the feasting birds in that chapter IMO.

 

[ebedmelech]

Let's say that one has found all of this convincing, not that I have though, what about the following per the 7th trumpet?

Revelation 11:19...and an earthquake, and great hail.

Remember when Jesus died on the cross? Matthew 27:50, 51. Fuirther confirmed by Revelation 12:7-12.

The fact you are apparently applying some of the 7th trump in the literal sense, as with the case with Matthew 27:50-53, to remain consistent, an earthquake, and great hail, has to be meaning literally as well. Since you initially stated, unless I misunderstood you, that the 7th trumpet is connected with 70 AD, where is there proof from historic records indicating at that time an earthquake, and great hail, were involved?

You do understand after the 7th trumpet there are 7 vials?

Also, if the 7th trumpet has to do with the events of 70 AD, why bring Matthew 27:50-53 into the picture? That's not connected with 70 AD. So you lost me there.

You do realize there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowl judgments? They all lead up to 70 AD in which God destroys Jerusalem and the temple. The 7th trumpet initiates the 7 vials. The 7th trumpet triggers more judgment through the 7 vials

 

[Postvieww]

the SUN will still be SHINING at the day of rapture
Matt 24 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

People work in the field during DAYLIGHT

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

People grind during DAYLIGHT

Jesus bless u all HalleluYah


The words "Matt 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION" which confused many:

Lets see the original greek version :
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation =eutheos de meta ten thlipsin (in greek)
meta was translated as after but meta also mean "with" in english,
In fact meta was translated as "WITH" much more often in the new Testament.
so the appropriate translation should read
immedately WITH the tribulation

Matt 24:30 Then will appear = koi tote phanesetai (in greek)
tote was translated as then but tote also mean "at that time".
so the more correct translation should read : At that time will appear.


Jesus bless u HalleluYah

I am going to have to agree with Riberra here Matt. 24: 40-41 and Luke 17:34-37 have nothing to do with a resurrection and catching up of the saints.

I must challenge your interpretation of Matt 24:29. After searching quite a few translations I found 0 that agree with what you wrote. Can you provide reference to any translations that agrees with you on this point?

 

[Postvieww]

Ok.

The first problem you have here is you don't realize this is because Jesus has just accomplished atonement on the cross.

Ever noticed why people don't deal with Matthew 27:50-53? What's going on there? The OT saints are being raised!!! They went with Jesus when He ascended to heaven just as it says.


One has to read and correlate what they read from scripture with scripture.

When one reads Revelation 11:18, 19 you have to have Psalm 2 in mind. That in itself tells you this is not the last judgment. It deals with the fact that Jesus has been installed as Lord, just as He declared in Matthew 28:18. This is why the nations are angry and its is why the temple of God opens in heaven!!! Jesus declared Himself to be the temple...and throughout the NT the church is the temple because the Holy spirit indwells every believer.

Just as Paul and Peter declare the church is built upon Jesus as the cornerstone, the apostles and prophets as the foundation, with believers as living stones.

This is the end of the Old Covenant age. Did you ever read Matthew 27:50-53? When Jesus ascended He took the OT saints with Him to heaven.

So the time that has come is that in which one is absent from the body, present with the Lord if they are saved and those who are spiritually dead are awaiting judgment.

The 7th trumpet announces Christ's reign. Notice that Revelation 11:17 says Christ has "begun to reign". The very thing Christ said in Matthew 28:18...and the same thing Psalm 2 says, and the same thing Hebrews 1 says.

The seventh trumpet already blew!

Ebedmelech said:

Ever noticed why people don't deal with Matthew 27:50-53? What's going on there? The OT saints are being raised!!! They went with Jesus when He ascended to heaven just as it says.

Matt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This passage only says “MANY” bodies of the saints arose and only says they appeared to many. The text does not say they went to heaven when He ascended.

What evidence do you have from scripture that this was not a resurrection as the resurrection of Lazarus who was dead 4 days and began to stink. He died again, how do we know these saints didn’t die again? The truth is we don’t know and this passage doesn’t tell us nor does it say some of the things you claim.

The seventh trumpet already blew!

I’ll grant you some of the trumpets may have already blown, but the 7th absolutely has not, and whatever happened in Matt. 27:52-53 was not the resurrection of 1Corin 15, 1 Thess. 4 or Revelation’s 7th trumpet.

Make us a list of each of the 7 trumpets and what event from history ties to each.

 

[DavidPT]

Remember when Jesus died on the cross? Matthew 27:50, 51. Fuirther confirmed by Revelation 12:7-12.

Yes but I don't see anything about any great hail going on at the time as well, meaning in regards to Matthew 27:50, 51. Then when one looks at Revelation 12:7-12 also, no mention of an earthquake nor great hail. So in 3 accounts you conclude are connected, one shows there is an earthquake and great hail at the time, another shows there is an earthquake at the time but no great hail as well, and the final shows there is neither an earthquake nor great hail at the time. What should this be telling us?

You do understand after the 7th trumpet there are 7 vials?

That's pretty much how I understand the 7th trumpet as well, but that hardly makes you correct about everything else you are concluding here.

You do realize there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowl judgments? They all lead up to 70 AD in which God destroys Jerusalem and the temple. The 7th trumpet initiates the 7 vials. The 7th trumpet triggers more judgment through the 7 vials

The only thing I don't realize is that "they all lead up to 70 AD in which God destroys Jerusalem and the temple". Can't say I realize that.