Which Church is THE Church?

[Thursday]

Q. Did Jesus found a church?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)

Q. How many churches did Jesus found?
A. One; the Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body of Christ. (Romans 12:5, Ephesians 4:4, Colossians 1:18)

Q. So, if Jesus founded a Church, then when was it founded?
A. 2000 years ago.

Q. Was that Church guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (John 14:26, John 16:13; Acts 2:3-4)

Q. If the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and was guided by the Holy Spirit, could it teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15)

Q. So, could we say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, taught doctrinal truth infallibly — without error — to the first-century Christians?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Did the Church of the New Testament teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (2 Timothy 1:12-14, Ephesians 4:14, Titus 1:9)

Q. Are there any denominations in the Church of the New Testament?
A. No. The Church in the New Testament is one, just as the Body of Christ is one (1 Corinthians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 11:18-19, Jude 19)

Q. Would a Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit still be in existence today?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 28:20, Ephesians 3:21)

Q. How old would that Church be?
A. 2000 years old.

Q. Would that Church still be guided by the Holy Spirit?
A. Yes. (Matthew 28:20, John 14:16)

Q. Could that Church founded by Jesus and still guided by the Holy Spirit teach doctrinal error?
A. No. (1 Timothy 3:15, 1 Corinthians 12:28)

Q. So we could say that the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit would still teach doctrinal truth infallibly?
A. Yes. (Luke 10:16, John 14:16-17, 1 Peter 1:12)

Q. Would that Church founded by Jesus Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit teach different doctrinal truths to different people in different areas?
A. No. (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, 1 Timothy 4:6)

Q. Would there be any denominations in that Church?
A. No. (1 Corinthians 1:13)

Q. Can the Lutheran denomination be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by Martin Luther in Germany in the 1500s.

Q. Can the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination, or any of its offshoots, be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by King Henry VIII in the 1500s because he wanted to divorce his wife.

Q. Are there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant groups that were founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So is there any Baptist, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Fundamentalist, non-denominational or other Protestant group that could be the Church founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. So if Jesus founded a Church — one Church — in the Holy Land 2000 years ago that was guided by the Holy Spirit, and that Church is still in existence today and is still guided by the Holy Spirit (which means it teaches doctrinal truth infallibly), and there are no denominations of that Church now, just as there were no denominations of that Church 2000 years ago, then shouldn’t all Christians be in that one Church founded by Jesus?
A. Yes.

Q. Does it make sense to be in a church that was not founded by Jesus Christ in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No.

Q. How can we identify which Church — of the thousands upon thousands — is THE Church founded by Jesus?
A. The Church founded by Jesus should at least claim to be THE Church founded by Jesus; it should be able to trace its leadership back 2000 years to the Apostles; and it should claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and to thus teach doctrinal truth infallibly with the authority of Jesus Christ, its Founder.

Q. How many churches fit that description?
A. One.

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jmartignoni/which-church-is-the-church.

 

[SkyWriting]

Q. How many churches fit that description?
A. One.

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jmartignoni/which-church-is-the-church.

Because of my experience in marketing, I saw that coming.
The Church is the entire body of believers.
Not a prophesy about the RCC.

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them” (Matthew 18:20)

 

[PapaZoom]

meh

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can we find a constructive direction for this thread? That falls within the actual Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology?

If we are not careful, this can be just argument-bait.

 

[Philip_B]

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.

The Church that finds it Episcopal Symbols of Unity in the Apostolic Patriarchs and their successors?

 

[Thursday]

Can we find a constructive direction for this thread? That falls within the actual Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology?

If we are not careful, this can be just argument-bait.

I intended for this to go to GT.

You can delete this if you like. I can repost it later.

 

[amadeois]

But the church is not the body of Christ.

What is then the body of Christ?

The "ekklessia" is the body of Jesus.

Look at the original word that Jesus used to create His body.

Also He defined Himself, commended, criticized, exhorted and warned the 7 churches of the book of Revelation.

These churches represent the history of the church from after Jesus time through today.

The church of today, Laodicea, is defined by Jesus as a lukewarm church that He will spue out of His mouth.

Are the churches described by Jesus part of His body?

Who is the "ekklessia" of Jesus?

Philadelphia was the only church that did not receive a criticism.

This is the church of love.
Jesus is love.

Is this church the true ekklessia?

 

[amadeois]

@Thursday

Have you read Revelation 18?

Question:
Will Jesus'Father send His church (ekklessia) to the lake of fire for eternity?

Answer:
No

Question:
Which church has his people dressed in purple and scarlet?

Answer:
The Catholic church.

Question:
What happens to that church?

Answer:
That great city that has power over that church is made desolate in one hour.

Question:
Is there a warning in the book of Revelation 18:4?

Answer:
Yes and it days:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her dins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

 

[amadeois]

NEVER ON SUNDAY.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I intended for this to go to GT.

You can delete this if you like. I can repost it later.

If you wanted it in GT, I'll see about getting it moved.

 

[All4Christ]

I agree that it should be moved to GT, and not stay in TT. Thanks Anastasia!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I agree that it should be moved to GT, and not stay in TT. Thanks Anastasia!

Yes, it's already well on it's way to being disruptive here. Hopefully we can get that taken care of soon.

 

[Philip_B]

Q. Can the Anglican/Episcopalian denomination, or any of its offshoots, be the Church founded by Jesus in the Holy Land 2000 years ago?
A. No. It was founded by King Henry VIII in the 1500s because he wanted to divorce his wife.

I do feel I need to tell you that this is a very blinkered understanding of the tradition of faith in which I stand, I do not accept it, I do not accept that that was how Henry VIII, Cranmer, Parker, Ridley and others understood it, I think it is a poor understanding of history, not to mention your own history.

Perhaps you might explain why the principle bishop of your tradition authorised the temporal conquest of England, and why that conquest took place flying the Pope's banners as witnessed in the Bayeux Tapestry.

I have no dispute with your claim to catholicity, however I do have a concern that you understand that you own the word, define the word, and limit the word.

I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic (Latin) Tradition, however if you expect that to continue, then there needs to be a little more respect shown by Catholics. Thankfully the person who wears the tiara today, says the division between Catholics and Anglicans is a Scandal and a Shame.

 

[All4Christ]

I do feel I need to tell you that this is a very blinkered understanding of the tradition of faith in which I stand, I do not accept it, I do not accept that that was how Henry VIII, Cranmer, Parker, Ridley and others understood it, I think it is a poor understanding of history, not to mention your own history.

Perhaps you might explain why the principle bishop of your tradition authorised the temporal conquest of England, and why that conquest took place flying the Pope's banners as witnessed in the Bayeux Tapestry.

I have no dispute with your claim to catholicity, however I do have a concern that you understand that you own the word, define the word, and limit the word.

I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic (Latin) Tradition, however if you expect that to continue, then there needs to be a little more respect shown by Catholics. Thankfully the person who wears the tiara today, says the division between Catholics and Anglicans is a Scandal and a Shame.

Respect is very important, both in real life and especially in Traditional Theology. This where we can correct misconceptions and learn about our beliefs Hopefully soon, this will be moved.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I intended for this to go to GT.

You can delete this if you like. I can repost it later.

Moved from Traditional Theology

Mark
CF Admin

 

[All4Christ]

Moved from Traditional Theology

Mark
CF Admin

Thanks!

 

[Hieronymus]

Q. So, if Jesus founded a Church, then when was it founded?
A. 2000 years ago.

That's some 400 years before the self proclaimed Catholic Church existed.

 

[Razare]

Q. Did Jesus found a church?
A. Yes. (Matthew 16:18)

Actually, No. In the original language, there was never the word or concept church.

Church was invented later in 200-300 AD or later, and was grafted out of the language by other men, who twisted the meaning of kyriakos into "church".

But in Greek, kyriakos means "that which belongs to the Lord". Has nothing to do with the modern definition of church.

from Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/church
Origin and Etymology of church
Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Late Greek kyriakon, from Greek, neuter of kyriakos of the lord, from kyrios lord, master; akin to Sanskrit śūra hero, warrior

So actually there is no Greek word for church. And kyriakos only appears twice in scripture, neither of which refers to church.

"The assembly" became redefined (meaning something else) into a newly invented application of a totally different word. This was done, because the original assembly of believers who were free and not part of official organization structures, were eventually part of this system that had buildings, organization, budgets, routines / liturgy, and all this became "church".

But you see what became "church" was so radically different than what they had in the Bible.

Then to make it seem like it was not completely different, our Bibles began redefining "the assembly" into a more modern word "church" but the concepts are utterly different.

If you want to understand this better read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Last-Reformation-Torben-Sondergaard/dp/1938526422

People are going back to the old system now, where there is no church. If we recognize it was a deception in the first place, there is no reason to believe in doctrines of men and deception created in 200 AD and later.

So I do not belong to THE CHURCH because this is a lie from satan. It is a building, it is a budget, it is an organization of men, and a formalized liturgy that puts God into a box and says, "God, stay in the box, don't move! You have to work our way, not your way!"

I belong to the assembly who are disciples of Jesus Christ led by the Holy Spirit in finances, relationships & instruction, meeting venue, and worship / prayer / communion / baptism and other practices. None of which are codified by man, but codified by God through scripture + the Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeois]

@Razare

I'm with you.

The word used by Jesus, (according to the Textus Receptus: may be He used Aramaic?) was "ekklesia" that should be translated as assembly or congregation.

The church of today is the building of bricks and mortars.

They gather for main worship services on Sunday, the day of the Sun and not the Son.

Jesus was resurrected on the Sabbath but too many people don't want to see the truth.

Also worship is not praise. Those signs in front should read "Praise Services"

Worship is to pay respect and honour our Creator: 7/24/366 = all of the time of our lives, not only 2 hours.

What is worship? To be obedient to our creator and to follow His instructions not the instructions of men.

Yes brother or sister Razare, a deception of Satan to steal Jesus message: the mark of the beast.

Deceived for about 1,700 hundred year.

We also should pay attention to His message to Lao dices and His advice to but those 3 things.

People should learn what means to obtain from Him and to buy the others.

A lot of meaning behind that message. Powerful stuff.

Go out and find out.
It changed me when I did that, specially the eye salve.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Q. Which Church is that?
A. The Catholic Church.

Thursday, you'd be interested to find the group with the sign "Church of Christ Meets Here" uses essentially the same argument and makes the same claim. Incidentally, both groups claim to NOT be denominations.

As Skywriting said, the Church is the entire 'body' or group of those who believe in Jesus Christ. The Church is not members of a particular denomination; such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Christ (meets here), Baptists or any other.