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Where does our spirit go when we die?

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by CoconutPrincess, Apr 15, 2013.

  1. CoconutPrincess

    CoconutPrincess If Ye Love Me, Keep My Commandments.

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    Luke 23:43
    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

    John 20:17
    Jesus said unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    I have 3 questions:

    1. How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that same day if Jesus hadn't ascended to the Father in Heaven until much later after his resurrection?

    2. Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection? If not with the Father, was He in paradise?

    3. Is Heaven and Paradise two different places?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  2. branchofthevine

    branchofthevine Newbie

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    1. the translation and the placement of the comma could be wrong. It could say: I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.
    ----> Though not everyone likes that idea, but honestly, if one thinks for a little bit they would understand that Jesus spent the next few days dead, and in Sheol (grave), and not in paradise. It should be clear enough, and we should not need these debates, but alas.

    2. I think Jesus was in the tomb, dead, jk.lol. But Peter says he went down to sheol to preach to the souls and stuff like that, but it is mostly a mystery.

    3. Yes, it seems Paradise and Heaven are the same, but when Christ comes again, He and His saints live on the New Earth, so like cool, or something.
     
  3. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    Paradise:

    par-ad'-i-sos
    Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.

    Paradise [N] [E]

    Persian loanword for "an area enclosed by a wall" or "garden." Its three uses in the Hebrew Bible ( Neh 2:8 ; Eccl 2:5 ; Sol 4:13 ) retain this meaning. The Septuagint uses the Greek paradeisos [paravdeiso"] for the garden of Eden in Genesis (called the "garden of God" in Isa 51:3 ; and Ezek 28:13 ).

    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    I believe that paradise refers to the earth made new where there would be the Tree of Life and Eden would be restored.

    The alternative is that paradise is the waiting place of the dead who are saved. So Paradise would be Abraham's Bosom. But Jesus did not go there when he died.

    Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    So unless Paradise or Abraham's Bosom is at the heart of the earth, Jesus did not go there.
     
  4. SilentShadow100

    SilentShadow100 User

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    Through Biblical study, I have come to a personal conclusion that the New Jerusalem as described in the Book of Revelation is our "paraidse."

    Notice how the Bible never says a human will go to [spiritual] Heaven, but rather, says "paradise" or "Kingdom". When God said he was preparing us a place in heaven, that could mean that he is making us in place, is in Heaven making it, and then will give it to us. New Jerusalem descends from Heaven prepared like a bride, so it must have been prepared in Heaven, right? New Jerusalem is God's eternal Kingdom. He will live in it for eternity. If we are to be with him, we must be where he is.
     
  5. trulyconverted

    trulyconverted Junior Member

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    This is up to where I can word my understanding at this time. I think my innermost self have understood a bit more but I cannot word them yet...

    I think Luke 16:19-31 explains the place of the dead with two parts separated by a big chasm. One part is the place of torment and the other part is a place of rest(Abraham's bosom). It looks like it is in one place because they can talk to one another but there is a big chasm between them which they cannot cross over. So I would say that the thief was carried to Abraham's bosom.

    I would say paradise is a place where there is the presence of God, (without suffering/torment). Note the...
    1. Garden of eden (paradise by definition)
    2. Abraham's Bosom (as what Jesus told the thief and by the consequent events).
    3. In the third heaven. Paul's experience. Read in 2Cor 12:1-5
    4. The tree of life is in the paradise of God, in new heaven and new earth... Read Rev ch2 & ch22.

    During the 3 days, Jesus went down to the place of the dead.

    I would say paradise would be where God's presence is, a place governed entirely by God's presence.
     
  6. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    This sounds really contradictory. According to you Jesus went down to the place of the dead where God's presence is, and that place is paradise? Yet Jesus himself said he had ascended to his father. So are you really saying that Jesus descended to his father?
     
  7. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    I have 3 questions:

    1. How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that same day if Jesus hadn't ascended to the Father in Heaven until much later after his resurrection?

    2. Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection? If not with the Father, was He in paradise?

    3. Is Heaven and Paradise two different places?


    1. Paradise is used in more than one sense...this passage speaks of sheol or Abraham's bosom, in others as the Garden of Eden (a small area on the earth eastward in Eden which covered from the Tigris Euphrates and encompassed the whole land of Ethiopia (what the Israelites understood as the land of Cush which is Africa), another usage is the future utopian new earth wherein is the New Jerusalem.

    2. Yes, He went to Sheol/hades in the Greek,,,the thief was there the other thief was across the great gulf (see Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16)

    3. Yes...right now (post Christ events) there is no one in the side where the righteous dead were held (but the Rich Man's side is full though their is no fellowship with others each being self lord of a kingdom of one). After Christ, all who have placed their trust in Him are with Him (Rev 7 the great uncountable multitude of every nation and tongue). To be absent fro the body is to be present with the Lord...thats my $.02

    Paul
     
  8. Lordservent

    Lordservent Yeshua's Follower

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    1. How could the thief be in paradise with Jesus that same day if Jesus hadn't ascended to the Father in Heaven until much later after his resurrection?

    Obviously Yeshua's Soul left His body for a while, His body was like an empty Shell.
    His Soul went to see G-d So He could know what to do Next.

    2. Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection? If not with the Father, was He in paradise?

    G-d's Domain is Paradise or Heaven both are the same dimension.
    And you must remember this, time and space are different in Heaven, Maybe Yeshua went there for an entire Year or more while on earth in only passed 3 days.
    We don't know much about Heaven, though we know a lot about hell
    We must not forget Yeshua (Jesus) went to the Sheol to preach and save Souls.
    Peter 3:18–20


    3. Is Heaven and Paradise two different places?

    No. And depends on which context you're using it, Eden was considered a Paradise.
     
  9. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    So when Jesus said he has not yet ascended to his father he was referring to his empty shell but the rest of him went? And to find out what to do next?????
     
  10. Lordservent

    Lordservent Yeshua's Follower

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    His soul was not in His body, His body was empty for 3 days.
    This is my theory and I believe so.
    I ask forgiveness upon the Lord if I am wrong.
     
  11. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Since souls are immortal hence the their on the cross immediately went to heaven, in his person, upon his death, awaiting his body upon the Jesus Return. All go to heaven, or should I say, most thinking they are going to heaven, immediately, in their sinful person, awake in hell awaiting for Jesus one Return to join to their body to be cast into the lake of fire for forever having time to think about this passage, IIThess.2:10. Hope this helps that one out there.
     
  12. trulyconverted

    trulyconverted Junior Member

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    I do not see any contradiction there. I thought I had explained it adequately in my previous post. Abraham's bosom is there in the place of the dead. Read Luke 16.
     
  13. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    So Jesus descended to Abraham's Bosom? Is Abraham's Bosom upwards or downwards? You did say Jesus went down to the place of the dead.
     
  14. trulyconverted

    trulyconverted Junior Member

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    Downwards.
     
  15. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    Well according to Luke 16:

    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    There are 3 possibilities here.

    1. You have 3 levels. You have hell which is right below (downwards), then you have paradise (Abraham's bosom) which is a way above that but still downwards. Then you have heaven right above.

    2. 2 Levels. Abraham's bosom is heaven (upwards) and where the rich man went is hell (downwards).

    3. You completely misunderstand the passage and using a parable and taking it literally while missing the entire point of the parable.

    I say its number 3. Firstly, this rich man must have eternal life because he is in torment, yet he is not dying and his body is not being consumed.

    Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    Tell me, did Adam go to Abraham's Bosom when he died? Or did only New Testament people start going there or people after Moses.
     
  16. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):):) I say its number 2. :thumbsup:
     
  17. PROPHECYKID

    PROPHECYKID Veteran

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    Since you believe in the immortality of the soul explain these scriptures.

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
     
  18. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

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    What about the resurrection? If all souls went to heaven, what is the need of a resuurection?

    Sorry, but there is no scripture suggesting souls going to heaven and then reuniting with a resurection body.

    Jesus himself said tat all who are in their graves will arise, some to everlasteing life and some to condemnation (John 5:28-29).

    Jesus also said no one has been into heaven (John 3:13) and God's reward comes out of heaven (rev 21), you will have to look again.
     
  19. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):):) ITim.3:16: In Him alone immortality, absolute deathlessness, exists, other immortals derive their immortality from Him. Very familiar with Ezek.18, but pass for now for ICor.15:23, "...and this mortal must put on immortality." This is the change that shall take place, those dead or alive, at the last day, Jn.5:28, 29, all the bodies joining their immortal souls, from the womb forward. Hope this helps. Thank you again for caring for the Word, not that I have it. :thumbsup:
     
  20. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):):) Impossible for a soul to resurrect hence at Jn.5:28, 29 are all the bodies resurrecting. All that died from Adam forward are either in heaven or in hell, no soul sleep. :thumbsup:

    :):):) By the way Jn.3:13, contextually, any other person would first have to ascend to heaven, not so this person - he was in heaven to begin with. Hence all he had to do was to come down from heaven. :wave:
     
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