Where do I belong?

[Shane2336]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Zurückschlagen]

Hallo!

Sorry for the inconvenient question, but is Baptism Christianity? I never understood that. And if yes, what is the difference?

Thank you, kind Sir.

 

[Shane2336]

No problem! "Baptists" are a denomination of the Protestant variety. Although they/we had some different roots than say, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.,

 

[Zurückschlagen]

I understand now, thank you!

 

[faroukfarouk]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. As far as doctrine, theology, and practice are concerned; I'm happy to be a Baptist, (but I am definitely an "old-school" Baptist!). Herein lies the problem as well. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I am very much a Calvinist. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just that one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it, but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Hi, Sir; good to see you; God bless His Word to you.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. As far as doctrine, theology, and practice are concerned; I'm happy to be a Baptist, (but I am definitely an "old-school" Baptist!). Herein lies the problem as well. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I am very much a Calvinist. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just that one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it, but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

I'm NOT a Calvinist at all. I can still sympathize with you. You didn't mention what brand of Baptist you were. I know there are several kinds, and I just presumed they were almost all dispensationalist. Maybe there are some kinds that are not. I don't know.

I have small experience with the PCA. My wife was part of a denomination that merged into the PCA. They ARE Calvinist. They don't seem to be at all mushy about it. I have met one or two very confused PCA folks but for the most part they are very clear about what they believe. Not a perfect group, but over all they appear faithful and know their faith. Not for me, but that's another story.

Infant baptism, which they practice, is an old old thing. Leaving aside the New Testament for now, it is an old old practice in the Church. Orthodox and Catholics practice it. It was absolutely known as normal by 200 AD, witnessed by Tertullian and Origen. In a way it replaced circumcision, which was administered normally when a baby boy was eight days old. It's a covenant thing and best understood in the NT here whole households were baptized, which presumably includes everybody in the household. Baptism is not a work, not something I do, but something done to me that I do not earn. It is thus fitting that I was baptized without any action at all on my part, an initial free grace while I was still unworthy and indeed totally incapable of a conscious decision for Christ. I didn't respond on my own to an altar call. That wasn't the beginning of my faith at all. It was baptism and then being brought up in a Christian home and learning bit by bit from parents and church what I had already been called to.

You have presumably already been baptized. I doubt they would claim any need to baptize you again. They should accept your baptism. So it comes down to whether you accept their baptisms and whether you would be willing to be under the authority of someone baptized as an infant, who otherwise exhibits all of the marks you would expect as a spiritual leader. That's your call.

 

[Dave-W]

I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems.

Wikipedia lists about 60 different Baptist denominations just in the US. So I am not surprised that if you were raised Fundamental Baptist and visited a Southern Baptist congregation that it was vastly different from what you expected. Even more so if you visit an American Baptist or General Baptist or even a Free Will Baptist.

 

[Shane2336]

I'm NOT a Calvinist at all. I can still sympathize with you. You didn't mention what brand of Baptist you were. I know there are several kinds, and I just presumed they were almost all dispensationalist. Maybe there are some kinds that are not. I don't know.

I have small experience with the PCA. My wife was part of a denomination that merged into the PCA. They ARE Calvinist. They don't seem to be at all mushy about it. I have met one or two very confused PCA folks but for the most part they are very clear about what they believe. Not a perfect group, but over all they appear faithful and know their faith. Not for me, but that's another story.

Infant baptism, which they practice, is an old old thing. Leaving aside the New Testament for now, it is an old old practice in the Church. Orthodox and Catholics practice it. It was absolutely known as normal by 200 AD, witnessed by Tertullian and Origen. In a way it replaced circumcision, which was administered normally when a baby boy was eight days old. It's a covenant thing and best understood in the NT here whole households were baptized, which presumably includes everybody in the household. Baptism is not a work, not something I do, but something done to me that I do not earn. It is thus fitting that I was baptized without any action at all on my part, an initial free grace while I was still unworthy and indeed totally incapable of a conscious decision for Christ. I didn't respond on my own to an altar call. That wasn't the beginning of my faith at all. It was baptism and then being brought up in a Christian home and learning bit by bit from parents and church what I had already been called to.

You have presumably already been baptized. I doubt they would claim any need to baptize you again. They should accept your baptism. So it comes down to whether you accept their baptisms and whether you would be willing to be under the authority of someone baptized as an infant, who otherwise exhibits all of the marks you would expect as a spiritual leader. That's your call.

Hey, thanks for the reply. To clear things up, I was brought up in a very contemporary church in the SBC. As a kid, I didn't really see in problems with it. As an adult, I'm not a fan. I just have this longing for a real sense of structure and reverence that I have yet to find in a Baptist Church. And you are right, a VAST majority of them have really soaked up Dispensationalism. It's like, Left Behind came out, and the Baptist theology fell in line with LaHaye and Jenkins, immediately. Like I said earlier, there is a BEAUTIFUL confession of faith (1689), but it seems that Baptists few and far between still care about it, or know it even exists! I'm not the only "old-school" or Reformed Baptist around, but you'd be hard pressed to find many. Another name for it was "Particular Baptist." This group was Calvinistic, yet held to Baptist covenant theology. I'd fit right in, but alas, a dead/dying breed.
To restate, I am aware of the roots and reasons behind infant baptism. It's just, at the end of the day, I personally don't agree with it 100%. I'm sympathetic to it, and understand why it's practiced, of course. And I certainly wouldn't have any problem being under/around anyone baptised in infancy.
I was very drawn to Lutheranism for a while, but I also don't agree with their teachings of loss of salvation, paedobaptism (again, I do know where they are coming from), and the physical presence of Christ in the eucharist. (Not to start a theological debate.) But the liturgy and structure among Lutherans certainly is beautiful.

 

[Shane2336]

Wikipedia lists about 60 different Baptist denominations just in the US. So I am not surprised that if you were raised Fundamental Baptist and visited a Southern Baptist congregation that it was vastly different from what you expected. Even more so if you visit an American Baptist or General Baptist or even a Free Will Baptist.

You hit the nail on the head, Dave. It's so watered down, who knows anymore?

 

[Dave-W]

To clear things up, I was brought up in a very contemporary church in the SBC.

Not sure how old you are; but I am surprised to see you grew up Southern Baptist but at the same time Calvinist. I thought the Calvinist inroads to the SBC were a fairly recent event. (last 20-30 years)

 

[Shane2336]

This is true. Interestingly enough, the Southern Baptists started out as Calvinists. The church I attended before joining the service was about as far from Calvinist as one could get! My movement into Calvinism happened after I left that congregation.

 

[tz620q]

To restate, I am aware of the roots and reasons behind infant baptism.

One statistic that I heard that helped to see why the practice (and the eight day old circumcision practice) was done on infants at the time of Christ was that at that time 7 out of 10 children never reached the age of 10. I think we have lived with modern medicine so long, we have forgotten how bad infant mortality can be.

 

[Mountainmike]

My suggestion is that you start at the beginning.

Read the writings of the first Christians taught by the apostles.

Read such as ignatius of Antioch, Justin martyr, irenaus of Lyon.
See what was handed down to them. Also documents like the didache.
Discover the role of clergy generally, bishops in particular, sacraments , eucharist, real presence and so on.

See which denominations you now see fit that early church.
Truth does not change, and Jesus said HIS church would be one.

You are probably in for a BIG suprise.

 

[Jim Langston]

I grew uo in the Baptist Church also. I found some difficulties with their teachings that seemed contrary to the bible. I find that a non denominational church almost always agrees with what I find in the bible and my own personal beliefs. Non denominational churches tend to be "Sola Scriptura", the bible is the final authority, just the way a fundamental baptist church should be. The thing I find differerent, however, that the actual religion is gone leaving only the bible.

In a baptist church we are taught OSAS (once saved always saved) based on the baptist religion. A non denominational church, however, will look at verses such as Paul's warning about if we willfully sin after the truth is in us (we are saved, as I interpret it) we have a rightful fearful looking forward to the day of judgement (we are going to helk, as I interpret it). A non denominationalist will look at that and say, no, it seems we can lose our salvation, let's start to look at these verses you are reading wrong.

 

[Shane2336]

I grew uo in the Baptist Church also. I found some difficulties with their teachings that seemed contrary to the bible. I find that a non denominational church almost always agrees with what I find in the bible and my own personal beliefs. Non denominational churches tend to be "Sola Scriptura", the bible is the final authority, just the way a fundamental baptist church should be. The thing I find differerent, however, that the actual religion is gone leaving only the bible.

In a baptist church we are taught OSAS (once saved always saved) based on the baptist religion. A non denominational church, however, will look at verses such as Paul's warning about if we willfully sin after the truth is in us (we are saved, as I interpret it) we have a rightful fearful looking forward to the day of judgement (we are going to helk, as I interpret it). A non denominationalist will look at that and say, no, it seems we can lose our salvation, let's start to look at these verses you are reading wrong.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your reply. I've given this some thought as well. This is just a "talking point", mind you. My only concern here (being that I move around a lot), is that one might run into the same problem, I described, of multiple theological systems and doctrines. Certainly, I agree with using the Bible as the sole authority of Christian faith and teaching. But couldn't one run into a different interpretation and message at every non-denominational church they attend? Without a confession or a clear defined doctrine it seems much would be left up to that individual congregation's interpretation.

 

[Jim Langston]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your reply. I've given this some thought as well. This is just a "talking point", mind you. My only concern here (being that I move around a lot), is that one might run into the same problem, I described, of multiple theological systems and doctrines. Certainly, I agree with using the Bible as the sole authority of Christian faith and teaching. But couldn't one run into a different interpretation and message at every non-denominational church they attend? Without a confession or a clear defined doctrine it seems much would be left up to that individual congregation's interpretation.

Surprisingly, no. Every non denominational church I have gone to believes almost exactly the same, with some uncertainty on OSAS now and then. Once you take man made religion out of it the bible is pretty straight forward and clear. I expected, also, to find many disagreements but if there is no man made religion they are wonderful, the Church I believe Jesus meant to set up.

 

[Shane2336]

Surprisingly, no. Every non denominational church I have gone to believes almost exactly the same, with some uncertainty on OSAS now and then. Once you take man made religion out of it the bible is pretty straight forward and clear. I expected, also, to find many disagreements but if there is no man made religion they are wonderful, the Church I believe Jesus meant to set up.

That's very interesting, and not what I expected to hear!

 

[Mountainmike]

If only non denominationals were as aligned in belief as you suppose!
Sola scriptura becomes sola "my interpretation of" sciptura in non denoms since the "priesthood of all believers" are empowered to have their own version.


But I agree on OSAS, easy believism, which - alongside others who believe in calvinist double predestination - are two of the very worst false doctrines because of how they have the capacity to mislead in how people live their lives!

Both doctrines radiate.. "it no longer matters what I do", despite a bible full of ordinances, and clear warning of consequences if you don't live them.

I grew uo in the Baptist Church also. I found some difficulties with their teachings that seemed contrary to the bible. I find that a non denominational church almost always agrees with what I find in the bible and my own personal beliefs. Non denominational churches tend to be "Sola Scriptura", the bible is the final authority, just the way a fundamental baptist church should be. The thing I find differerent, however, that the actual religion is gone leaving only the bible.

In a baptist church we are taught OSAS (once saved always saved) based on the baptist religion. A non denominational church, however, will look at verses such as Paul's warning about if we willfully sin after the truth is in us (we are saved, as I interpret it) we have a rightful fearful looking forward to the day of judgement (we are going to helk, as I interpret it). A non denominationalist will look at that and say, no, it seems we can lose our salvation, let's start to look at these verses you are reading wrong.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not sure where this thread belongs, but this seemed like a good place to start.

I've been a Baptist for my entire life. Well, perhaps until recently. I'm not certain. Hence, this post. I feel like I haven't budged, and my denomination has absolutely derailed. I've noticed (over the years) that the level of disagreement and conflict among Baptists is dizzying. And something that concerns me, quite a bit, is how Dispensationalism is running RAMPANT through Baptist churches. It has effectively become a staple, it seems. (I know many here agree with it, but I cannot adhere to it.) A denomination that was once very conservative and grounded in covenant theology is now absolutely all over the place. (Can I even call it a denomination anymore? I'm not sure.) I could visit ten different Baptist churches and find 32 different theological systems. I'm looking for continuity, structure, and stability. A defined system that is adhered to. Sadly, I'm not finding this among my Baptist brothers anymore. This is what discourages me. There are confessional standards, but they've been thrown to the wayside.
To be completely candid, I'm finding some solace in Calvinism. Why not the PCA or OPC then? There's just one hangup. I have not yet found an answer for paedobaptism. And it's certainly not for lack of trying/searching for one! I see the argument for it but it hasn't convinced me. If this were not an obstacle for me, I'd be right at home in the PCA or OPC. I'm looking for some input here. I need some help. I need a home! Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Hi Shane,

You might as well stick with your Baptist affiliation since I doubt very much you'll find any 'Goldilocks Congregation.' I don't mean this as a slam, but as a simple, brotherly suggestion.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[ChristsMercy]

I am asking myself the same questions as well of late. I was brought up in a pentecostal church of God, and I strayed from the Lord for years. Upon returning to the Lord a few years ago I find myself in complete and utter confusion about what denomination I should be a part of. I don't necessarily think you have to belong to a church to find salvation but fellowship with other believers is always a step in the right direction and is a good influence for those who need it such as myself. If I can do anything for God and for myself, with His direction, I will. Just not sure what church I should belong to, and would love any input or advice figuring it out.