When did liberal become such a dirty word?

[tadoflamb]

I confess, I really was raised as a liberal. When I converted, I saw the pitfalls of liberalism, but as a remedy, become even more liberal. While I was proud as a youth to be a liberal, at some point liberal, politically, became a dirty word. Now I find it's being tossed around in Catholic circles with a tone of derision. I know in the past, I've been guilty of the same. So, when did liberal become such a dirty word?

 

[thehehe]

I was waiting for your thread
I honestly don't really know. Perhaps because liberalism became one of the most important tendencies in the westernized world and that it seems impossible to totally combine an established dogma and liberalism. The ones choosing the dogma are then hostile to the ones who did not. Liberalism if often seen as a kind of threat. I don't know if this is really one or not. People often make the confusion between a kind of extreme liberalism (which is an excess to me) and a moderate liberalism.

 

[One Voice Among Many1]

I have no idea when liberal became a bad word, but it irritates me when I read comments that degrade and judge liberal Catholics and other liberal Christians.

After all the fuss and complaints against liberals I have seen lately, I feel like wearing the label of liberal like a badge of honor. And I dare say that I am proud to be called a 'bleeding heart liberal' if that describes me caring for my fellow man and not wanting anyone, regardless of who they are, to face discrimination and prejudice.

So, to quote John F. Kennedy, who we all know was Catholic.

“If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.”

 

[Albion]

Somewhere around 5 to 10 years ago, I'm thinking.

 

[Rhamiel]

I confess, I really was raised as a liberal. When I converted, I saw the pitfalls of liberalism, but as a remedy, become even more liberal. While I was proud as a youth to be a liberal, at some point liberal, politically, became a dirty word. Now I find it's being tossed around in Catholic circles with a tone of derision. I know in the past, I've been guilty of the same. So, when did liberal become such a dirty word?

well there is political liberalism
most Catholics are politically liberal
and historically, in the USA, a great majority of the Catholics have been politically liberal
Catholic social teaching does not really line up with laissez faire capitalism (most Conservatives do not fall into this camp, but some do)

then we have theological liberalism
to be honest, I am not even sure what this really means
maybe this is why Liberal is now seen as a dirty word among some Catholics?

there is also the push in the American Democratic party to normalize homosexuality and the push for abortion rights
more reasons why Catholics might use Liberal as a curse word
of course there are Republicans who are for these things too, but the Democratic party (at least on a National scale) seems monolithic in favor of these things

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I think liberal pushes against the status quo in a lot of areas and it is threatening to those who like the way things are in one way or another. For instance, it's no secret that the demographics of the US are changing and some really want to hang on to the way things were. There's also rapid change in science, medicine, technology, etc...on one hand making the world a smaller place (which has its plusses and minuses ), changing the way we work, and changing how we view life. All these changes ignite some folks. and make others long for simplicity and wanting to go back.

 

[tadoflamb]

I was waiting for your thread
I honestly don't really know. Perhaps because liberalism became one of the most important tendencies in the westernized world and that it seems impossible to totally combine an established dogma and liberalism. The ones choosing the dogma are then hostile to the ones who did not. Liberalism if often seen as a kind of threat. I don't know if this is really one or not. People often make the confusion between a kind of extreme liberalism (which is an excess to me) and a moderate liberalism.

I think it's becoming a consensus that political lines don't line up with Catholicism so I'm still lost on the liberal/conservative thing. Looking back at my time at my parish I can see the emphasis was not on the law, or on dogma but getting more in touch with the reality of a God that loves us and what that the deeper implications are for our lives. Perhaps this is liberalism? Liturgically, at my own parish there's enough stuff that goes on to make a traditionalist cringe. Is that liberalism? All I know is that liberalism is almost viewed as leprosy it's got a stigma attached to it. I know back when this forum was first formed I shunned it. I'd actually had forgotten it was here and now I discover it's not unclean, but filled with same types of people I just went to mass with.

 

[Armoured]

So, when did liberal become such a dirty word?

When people who couldn't define it started using it as a generic insult to describe anyone who disagrees with them

 

[Colin]

I am pleased this question cropped up .

I don't like this forum being labelled "Liberal Catholics" .

Is it an American thing ?

Before becoming acquainted with American Catholicism , mainly through EWTN and predominantly American Catholic forums , the term "Liberal Catholics" was not part of my vocabulary .

Because of the negative connotations associated with the adjective "Liberal" , I would ditch it in the way it is used of Catholics .

I was fortunate to have lived through the Second Vatican Council . We would follow it with curiosity , excitement and hope .

The more vocal bishops at the Council became familiar names , and we soon came to realise that there was a real debate going on between the bishops at the Council . Some bishops did not want any change within the Church . Other bishops wanted to see reform in the way Pope John XXIII , Good Pope John , saw it . He spoke of aggiornamento . He said , " The Council's principal task will be concerned with the condition and modernization (in Italian: aggiornamento) of the Church after 20 centuries of life. "

The bishops came to be looked upon as "Conservatives" and "Progressives" . And there was no wrong seen in speaking of them in this way . The conservative bishops were basically saying there is no need for change , things were just fine as they were . On the other hand , the progressive bishops said that things were not satisfactory , and that there was a need for reform . In his opening speech at the Council Good Pope John made an important point when he said , " The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character. "

So the debates went on for four years , and thankfully the progressive bishops won the day .

So how would I label myself . Not "liberal" because of the way the word is abused .

I would call myself a conservative Catholic , wanting to conserve all that is good and true in the Church .

I would call myself a progressive Catholic , wanting to bring in reform where wrong thinking and practices need to be cast aside because they are hindering the good and true in the Church .

So I am a conservative , progressive Catholic or a progressive , conservative Catholic . Take your pick . It doesn't matter either way .

Conserve "the deposit of faith" .

Reform when and where "the deposit of faith" needs to be presented in a way meaningful to the people of our time .

I hope I am making sense .

Thanks if you have made the effort to read this .

 

[thehehe]

I am pleased this question cropped up .

I don't like this forum being labelled "Liberal Catholics" .

Is it an American thing ?

Before becoming acquainted with American Catholicism , mainly through EWTN and predominantly American Catholic forums , the term "Liberal Catholics" was not part of my vocabulary .

That was a really good post. I agreed with everything, especially concerning Vatican II.

Yes, seems very American. I also never seriously heard about the Antichrist before and believed that Creationism was a kind of legendary idea. I was also not expecting at all the violent critics against Pope Francis -when I like this man so much and consider him as an awesome Pope (as everyone already noticed it). Well. At least I came back to Earth.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Thanks if you have made the effort to read this .

I won't put any labels on you.
To me you are just Colin.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

When people who couldn't define it started using it as a generic insult to describe anyone who disagrees with them

That does seem to happen on forums here, I've noticed.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

“If by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people-their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties-someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal", then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal.”

That's a great quote from Kennedy. Thanks Red Fox.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I don't know about labels but all I can say is that I'm enjoying this subforum, now that we have a bit of traffic. It's civilised! That's all I ever wanted!

 

[tadoflamb]

I am pleased this question cropped up .

I don't like this forum being labelled "Liberal Catholics" .

Is it an American thing ?

Before becoming acquainted with American Catholicism , mainly through EWTN and predominantly American Catholic forums , the term "Liberal Catholics" was not part of my vocabulary .

Because of the negative connotations associated with the adjective "Liberal" , I would ditch it in the way it is used of Catholics .

I was fortunate to have lived through the Second Vatican Council . We would follow it with curiosity , excitement and hope .

The more vocal bishops at the Council became familiar names , and we soon came to realise that there was a real debate going on between the bishops at the Council . Some bishops did not want any change within the Church . Other bishops wanted to see reform in the way Pope John XXIII , Good Pope John , saw it . He spoke of aggiornamento . He said , " The Council's principal task will be concerned with the condition and modernization (in Italian: aggiornamento) of the Church after 20 centuries of life. "

The bishops came to be looked upon as "Conservatives" and "Progressives" . And there was no wrong seen in speaking of them in this way . The conservative bishops were basically saying there is no need for change , things were just fine as they were . On the other hand , the progressive bishops said that things were not satisfactory , and that there was a need for reform . In his opening speech at the Council Good Pope John made an important point when he said , " The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character. "

So the debates went on for four years , and thankfully the progressive bishops won the day .

So how would I label myself . Not "liberal" because of the way the word is abused .

I would call myself a conservative Catholic , wanting to conserve all that is good and true in the Church .

I would call myself a progressive Catholic , wanting to bring in reform where wrong thinking and practices need to be cast aside because they are hindering the good and true in the Church .

So I am a conservative , progressive Catholic or a progressive , conservative Catholic . Take your pick . It doesn't matter either way .

Conserve "the deposit of faith" .

Reform when and where "the deposit of faith" needs to be presented in a way meaningful to the people of our time .

I hope I am making sense .

Thanks if you have made the effort to read this .

Fantastic post. You are truly a blessing.

 

[tadoflamb]

That was a really good post. I agreed with everything, especially concerning Vatican II.

Yes, seems very American. I also never seriously heard about the Antichrist before and believed that Creationism was a kind of legendary idea. I was also not expecting at all the violent critics against Pope Francis -when I like this man so much and consider him as an awesome Pope (as everyone already noticed it). Well. At least I came back to Earth.

It's interesting hearing the perspective from those outside the US. I'm thinking it our local politics which as seemed to infiltrate the Church. I know even working in a charity like St. Vincent de Paul I got screamed down by a number of conservatives, and I only call them conservatives because that's how they self-identified.. Also, their arguments, though loud, had no basis in the gospel, the social doctrine of the Church or the Rule of St.VdeP, but were grounded in American conservative politics.

I also agree with you on Pope Francis. I'm a little stunned by the blow back. Me, I'm just grateful for the guy. He speaks of the radical compassion of the gospel.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I got screamed down by a number of conservatives, and I only call them conservatives because that's how they self-identified..

Do you find those kind of people like to be closely identified with authority? They don't like being rank and file peasants?

 

[Rhamiel]

It's interesting hearing the perspective from those outside the US. I'm thinking it our local politics which as seemed to infiltrate the Church. I know even working in a charity like St. Vincent de Paul I got screamed down by a number of conservatives, and I only call them conservatives because that's how they self-identified.. Also, their arguments, though loud, had no basis in the gospel, the social doctrine of the Church or the Rule of St.VdeP, but were grounded in American conservative politics.

I also agree with you on Pope Francis. I'm a little stunned by the blow back. Me, I'm just grateful for the guy. He speaks of the radical compassion of the gospel.

oh I am so sorry that anyone would ever yell at you, you are always such an honest and gentle soul

should we separate the political Conservative from the theological conservative?
I have said before, in this thread or maybe the one Michie made in OBOB (or maybe both) that using political terms for theological views adds to the confusion
I do not blame you for using this terminology, it is part of the popular conversation on this issue
but I also think we have to distance ourselves from it a bit

like the conversation is on "Liberal Catholics" and "Conservative Catholics"
so we have to use these terms if we are going to have meaningful dialogue with people
we have to understand these terms if we want to have any impact with the dialogue

but at the same time, I think we also need to understand that these terms are both misrepresentations of the faith and are poor analogies because they were made to describe political things instead of theological things

it is like comparing a Nation to a kindergarten classroom
sure some analogies can be made, but if you go into any depth the analogy becomes more convoluted

 

[tadoflamb]

Do you find those kind of people like to be closely identified with authority? They don't like being rank and file peasants?

Not really. We were all peasants. StVdeP is a lay organization. It was more fiscal conservationism (not appropriate in an organization like StVdeP) and an unnecessary, and misguided application of the rules or what I prefer to call suggestions. For example, we had rules (suggestions) that we didn't make more than three visits in a day or we don't go past parish boundaries, or we would only give food assistance only once every three months or rent/utility assistance once a year. Of course, I broke all these rules on a consistent basis. I think it must have been their social conservatism which made that so objectionable. Some of them had a problem that we would pay some one's rent even once. 'It's not helping them', they would say. That's political conservatism in my estimation.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Of course, I broke all these rules on a consistent basis.

I'd probably do the same.