Soyeong

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Those all violate the commandments of Jesus. The Gentiles were never, ever under the Ten Commandments before or After Jesus. Those were part of a contract that was EXCLUSIVELY between Hebrews and YHWH.

Christ made a NEW contract, with all who would follow. He gave a clear set of moral laws that was altogether more embracing than the law of Sinai, because rendered very simply.

And he didn't give the judgments to the judges, or the Urim and Thummim. His law is simpler and really quite different.

If Gentiles have never been under God's law, then they have never sinned or been in need or a redeemer. While Gentiles were never under the Old Covenant, that does not mean that they are free to do what God has said in His law is sin. Messiah certainly made a New Covenant, but the covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), so we are still to obey the same law. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do, and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws and God's moral character did not change between any of His covenants. Messiah did not add any brand new laws or subtract any old laws, otherwise he would have sinned (Deuteronomy 4:2) and would have been disqualified from being our savior. In 1 John 2:4-6, instructing us to obey Messiah's commands was associated with instructing us to walking in the same way that he walked, and he walked in perfect obedience to the law. He didn't command one thing and live out something different, but rather he taught to obey the law both by word and by example, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). He also was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about what conduct we should have, but rather that his teachers were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16) and that he only did the Father's will (John 6:38). Saying that the law is different is like saying that God changed because the law is based off of His character.
 
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Job8

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Tell me why or why not you believe it.
Torah observance was set aside when the New Covenant was established and ratified with the shed blood of Christ. Therefore to revert back to Moses is to trample on the finished work of Christ. There was a time when Hebrew Christians were Christians only. That is how it should be, and that is what God wants.
 
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Open Heart

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I believe that Torah observance is for Jewish believers. It is OUR covenant. We observe it not because it gets us into heaven but, well, just because we love God, and because, you know, we're Jews so we do Jew stuff.

Our model is James and the believers in the church of Jerusalem, who were Jews. James says there were thousands, and they were all zealous for Torah! Acts 21:20
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Torah observance was set aside when the New Covenant was established and ratified with the shed blood of Christ. Therefore to revert back to Moses is to trample on the finished work of Christ. There was a time when Hebrew Christians were Christians only. That is how it should be, and that is what God wants.
That way of looking at it seems wrong, from thousands of years ago until today,
because
it contributes greatly to disobedience and lawlessness - like having a city where everybody can drive however they want, without guides or lights or directions or any laws enforced.

Simply, since Jesus said Torah was not gone, and would not go away, (until heaven and earth pass away. Johnny Carson is on (reruns probably), so I think it is save to say that heaven and earth have not passed away.
it's absolutely a good idea to agree with Jesus.
 
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Soyeong

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Torah observance was set aside when the New Covenant was established and ratified with the shed blood of Christ. Therefore to revert back to Moses is to trample on the finished work of Christ. There was a time when Hebrew Christians were Christians only. That is how it should be, and that is what God wants.

The New Covenant that was established and ratified with the shed blood of Christ was to redeem us from lawlessness (Titus 2:14), not the law, so it was disobedience to the law that was set aside. The law requires obedience and Messiah died so that we might meet the righteous requirement of the law (Romans 8:4), so to turn back to the lawlessness that he redeemed you from is what would be trampling on the finished work of Christ.
 
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Job8

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That way of looking at it seems wrong, from thousands of years ago until today,
because it contributes greatly to disobedience and lawlessness - like having a city where everybody can drive however they want, without guides or lights or directions or any laws enforced.
More incomprehension about the New Covenant.
 
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Open Heart

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Torah observance was set aside when the New Covenant was established and ratified with the shed blood of Christ. Therefore to revert back to Moses is to trample on the finished work of Christ. There was a time when Hebrew Christians were Christians only. That is how it should be, and that is what God wants.
Not really. Jewish believers continued to observe Torah (Acts 21:20). There was a question over whether new Gentile believers should convert and become Jews and take up the covenant, but the Council of Jerusalem said no. So things stayed the same as always: Jews observe, Gentiles need not.
 
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MWood

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Paul wrote that if you live by the law, you will be judged by the law.
James wrote that if you live by the law, and miss any part of the law, you are guilty of the whole law.
Non of Gods' Chosen People ever did the whole law. From Mt. Sinai to the death on the Cross, no one ever did the whole law but Jesus. Do you think you can do any better???
 
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Job8

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Jews observe, Gentiles need not
That would create two kinds of churches -- Jewish and Gentile. But you won't find that in the New Testament churches (which consisted of both Jews and Gentiles). Since the Church is one, and all distinctions between Jew and Gentile are abolished in Christ on the Cross. Hebrew Christians did NOT practice Torah observance. That would simply create division, as it now has through Messianic Judaism.
 
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Open Heart

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Paul wrote that if you live by the law, you will be judged by the law.
James wrote that if you live by the law, and miss any part of the law, you are guilty of the whole law.
Non of Gods' Chosen People ever did the whole law. From Mt. Sinai to the death on the Cross, no one ever did the whole law but Jesus. Do you think you can do any better???
I obey the law not to get to heaven, but simply out of love for God, and because I'm a Jew so I do Jewish things. My model is the thousands of Jewish believers in Jerusalem under the authority of James who were all zealous for Torah. Torah has an atonement system--it assumes we will fall short. It foreshadowed Christ's death on the cross. Because of this we can observe Torah, fall short, and repent and get up again and return to our walk with God. And of course, Torah is not for Gentiles per the council of Jerusalem (although if they voluntarily observe out of love, there is no harm done).
 
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Open Heart

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That would create two kinds of churches -- Jewish and Gentile. But you won't find that in the New Testament churches (which consisted of both Jews and Gentiles). Since the Church is one, and all distinctions between Jew and Gentile are abolished in Christ on the Cross. Hebrew Christians did NOT practice Torah observance. That would simply create division, as it now has through Messianic Judaism.
It can create two kinds of churches, but it doesn't have to.

In the times of the apostles, there were two different kinds of churches. You had the Jewish church in Jerusalem. And you had the Gentile churches elsewhere. These Gentile churches had Jewish congregants, but they were very much in the minority.

Today, we have the presence of Messianic synagogues. I realize that many of them are primarily Gentile Messianics. This is a big mistake IMHO. Messianic Judaism is supposed to be for Jewish believers, so that we can keep our Jewish identity. If the occasional Gentile feels a great affinity for Israel and Torah, that's fine. But I don't approve of Gentiles merely adopting Jewish style worship and traipsing around in prayer shawls as if they were Jews. It's deeply insulting to us. In the past, I have enjoydc the Messianic synagogues that are primarily Jews and intermarrieds. It gives me a chance to worship with my people in a traditional Jewish manner. For example, synagogues run by Hashinvenu (a subgroup of UMJC) are like this.

But it doesn't HAVE to be this way. for example, I am a Hebrew Catholic. I primarily worship at a Catholic Mass. I do my Jewish observances privately, keeping kosher and observing sabbath in my home (I don't even get out of my pajamas on Saturday!). About once a month, I go to a Reform synagogue to pray with my people, and I observe the Holy Days with them. I figure if the Pope can pray at a Synagogue, so can I. But the Mass is my primary place of worship.
 
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Open Heart

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If Gentiles have never been under God's law, then they have never sinned or been in need or a redeemer.
Gentiles have been under what is usually called Natural Law. There is a lot of overlap between the Mosaic Covenant and Natural Law -- don't murder, don't steal, don't have sex with your mother.... But there are differences too: Natural Law doesn't say anything about keeping kosher or honoring the Sabbath or observing the Family Purity laws or keeping the Holy Days of Israel.
 
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Soyeong

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Gentiles have been under what is usually called Natural Law. There is a lot of overlap between the Mosaic Covenant and Natural Law -- don't murder, don't steal, don't have sex with your mother.... But there are differences too: Natural Law doesn't say anything about keeping kosher or honoring the Sabbath or observing the Family Purity laws or keeping the Holy Days of Israel.

In 1 Peter 1:14-16, it says for Gentiles to have a holy conduct, and then it quotes from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes God's dietary instructions and keeping God's holy days. Leviticus 23 says that they belong to God, not Israel. According to Romans 2:26, the way for Gentiles to demonstrate that they have a circumcised heart is by their obedience to God's law.
 
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Open Heart

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In 1 Peter 1:14-16, it says for Gentiles to have a holy conduct, and then it quotes from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes God's dietary instructions and keeping God's holy days.
1 Peter 1:14-16 never says that Gentiles are to keep the Mosaic covenant, certainly never mentions kashrut. Nor could it since Peter himself argued at the council of Jerusalem not to burden Gentile converts with these laws.

Leviticus 23 says that they belong to God, not Israel.
Can you be more specific? Where in Lev 23 does it mention Gentiles, and if it says they belong to God rather than Israel, wouldn't that make my case rather than yours?

According to Romans 2:26, the way for Gentiles to demonstrate that they have a circumcised heart is by their obedience to God's law.
It's not advocating Gentiles keep the Mosaic Covenant. It's simply dealing with hypocrisy. Paul was another who argued at the council of Jerusalem that Gentiles not be burdened with Mosaic law.
 
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Soyeong

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1 Peter 1:14-16 never says that Gentiles are to keep the Mosaic covenant, certainly never mentions kashrut. Nor could it since Peter himself argued at the council of Jerusalem not to burden Gentile converts with these laws.

Can you be more specific? Where in Lev 23 does it mention Gentiles, and if it says they belong to God rather than Israel, wouldn't that make my case rather than yours?

I didn't say anything to advocate that Gentiles keep the Mosaic Covenant, far from it. In 1 Peter 1:16, it doesn't say that Gentiles are to have a holy conduct because that is what the Mosaic Covenant requires or because they should behave like Jews, but rather it says that Gentiles are to have a holy conduct because God is holy. We are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but we are still under the same God, so unless you are advocating that God's holiness changed between covenants, then the way to have a holy conduct in line with His holiness remained same, which involves keeping kashrut. In 1 Peter 1:16, it references Leviticus 11:44-45, which is talking about kashrut, and is part of God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which Gentiles are told to do.

The Mosaic law is God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) and the followers of God are to do what is holy, righteous, and good not because we are under the Mosaic Covenant, but because that is how to act in line with the holiness, righteousness, and goodness of the God that we serve. It Leviticus 23:2, it says that they are God's appointed feasts, and while the chapter doesn't mention Gentiles, Gentiles are still to keep them not because of any covenant or because of who the Jews are, but because of who God is. It should be fairly straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct.

It's not advocating Gentiles keep the Mosaic Covenant. It's simply dealing with hypocrisy. Paul was another who argued at the council of Jerusalem that Gentiles not be burdened with Mosaic law.

Do you think it is important for Gentiles to have circumcised hearts? If so, then obedience to the Mosaic law is the way to demonstrate that, which is again only advocating obedience to the law, not to the covenant. Anyone who wants to do what is holy, righteous, and good can do so by obeying the Mosaic law even if they aren't under any covenant agreement with God to have such a conduct, but the New Covenant is indeed one where we are instructed to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add or subtract from God's law, so if Paul had tried to subtract all but four of the laws for Gentiles, then he would have been sinning. Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6 the way to tell whether someone is a false messenger of God is if they teach God's people against obeying what He had commanded, so if you think that Paul did that, then you should consider him to be a false prophet and disregard what he said. We must obey God rather than man, so if Paul had argued not to burden Gentiles with obedience to God, then we should obey God instead of him. However, Paul said that the Mosaic law was given to reveal to us what sin is (Romans 7:7) and he was clear that Gentiles are not permitted to do what God has revealed to be sin (Romans 6:15), so he was in favor of Gentiles obeying it. Paul also said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather it upholds it (Romans 3:31), so he never argued against keeping it, though he did argue against requiring Gentiles to keep Jewish traditions in order to become saved (Acts 15:1). The Mosaic law does not require Jews to keep or their traditions for how to keep it in order to become saved, so that was never the reason why we should obey it in the first place. It does not follow that because we shouldn't obey God's law for a reason for which it was never intended that therefore we shouldn't obey it for the many reasons for why it was given.
 
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Open Heart

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If Gentiles have never been under God's law, then they have never sinned or been in need or a redeemer.
Gentiles were under God's law, just not mosaic law. Gentiles are under what is sometimes referred to as Natural Law. It is a smaller subset of Mosaic law -- it is that part which is universal -- don't murder, don't steal, don't have sex with your mother. Natural law doesn't include those things only for Israel such as the kosher laws or time specific laws.
 
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Soyeong

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Gentiles were under God's law, just not mosaic law. Gentiles are under what is sometimes referred to as Natural Law. It is a smaller subset of Mosaic law -- it is that part which is universal -- don't murder, don't steal, don't have sex with your mother. Natural law doesn't include those things only for Israel such as the kosher laws or time specific laws.

God's law is inclusive of everything that God has commanded, including the Mosaic law. The difference that you are trying to make between the Mosaic law and the smaller subset of Natural law is that Natural law does not include God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, so it does not cover all that Gentiles are instructed to do.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Some kind of Torah observance as a devotional exercise might be beneficial for some people. I personally have no interest in that (at least not right now but you never know what the future may bring) but Acts 15 speaks so clearly as to be unambiguous about this. Gentiles are not bound to Torah. That's good news because I ate pepperoni pizza today.
 
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Some kind of Torah observance as a devotional exercise might be beneficial for some people. I personally have no interest in that (at least not right now but you never know what the future may bring) but Acts 15 speaks so clearly as to be unambiguous about this. Gentiles are not bound to Torah. That's good news because I ate pepperoni pizza today.
Do you eat steak? I bet it it has Blood in it, do you bow Dow and prey to statues of saints?... so even if you believe that Acts 15 teaches that the gentiles only have to do 4 things (which it doesn't) you don't even do that. By your logic the Gentiles can go ahead stealing, lying, murdering ect ect simply because those things are not listed in in Acts 15... do you see how wrong this interpretation is??
 
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