What would you do if your teen told you. They were fondling their younger sibling private parts?

[Armoured]

http://defamer.gawker.com/duggar-dads-political-platform-incest-should-be-punish-1706929035

"But what does Jim Bob think of his own response to his son’s familial abuse? In a brief statement to People, Jim Bob and Michelle said last week that “that dark and difficult time caused us to seek God like never before.” Maybe that’s because Jim Bob publicly stated during his 2002 campaign for U.S. Senate that he thinks incest should be punishable by death."


Awwwwkwaaaaard...

 

[TerranceL]

Depends on what the victim wanted. If someone molests my child and my child wants to press charges, I would support that. They have rights. If the child didn't want that, then I suppose it depends. I'm not going to force a victim to go to the police.

Definitely therapy, no matter what else we chose to do or not do.

So if your child decides they don't want to go to the cops and your older child goes on to rape someone elses kid... sorry but that's on you.

 

[TerranceL]

It seems the wider reaction depends on what gender and political beliefs the perp has.

So amidst all this Duggar-child-fondling furore, I remembered how Lena Dunham openly admitted to touching, kissing, and masturbating in bed with, her younger sister, over a much longer period (7 to 17).

Interesting how the liberal, feminist darling wasn't fired from....well, anything, and yet Duggar's head is being demanded.

Well Duggars a man, we can't hold a woman to the same standards as we hold men, that's misogyny.

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I would get the kid into therapy with a licensed therapist and do the same for the abused sibling. I would make sure the victim knew it was absolutely not her fault, and I would never ever ever leave them alone together again. I might even lock him in his bedroom at night to make sure there wouldn't be any night time creeping.

I might would even call child protective services myself just to advise them that I need help in handling the situation.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I wrote more than that - you didn't mention the bit about her masturbating next to her sleeping sister.

Yes, you did write more than that, and caricatured it as a decade of systematic sexual abuse rather than a smattering of childhood incidents, that while discomfiting and improper are not wild deviations from the range of normal sexual exploration and behavior for children in her age group. http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/caring/sexualdevelopmentandbehavior.pdf

Josh Duggar's behavior wasn't just a few steps outside of the lines of normal sexual behavior for his age range.

The only incident where she inappropriately touched her sister was one out of inquisitiveness when she was seven years old. It lacked sexual motivation. It also happened out in their Brooklyn driveway in daylight, so there was no attempt to conceal it. It's preposterous to compare her touching herself as a kid while her sister was sleeping in the bed they shared to a teenager sneaking into the rooms of opposite-gender and much younger siblings to fondle them while she slept. Yes, I think it's icky that she would do that, and crass exhibition to then detail it in a book, but it's not the moral deviation you're bent on construing it to be, nor is it comparable to Josh Duggar's behavior. They're polar. Kids have been masturbating since the dawn of humanity, and since it's not uncommon for siblings to share sleeping quarters, I'm willing to bet there have been many who done the same thing.
Most just have the sense of propriety to know better than to write about such unsettling and entirely private behavior in a book.

So what? Just because they say it wasn't abuse doesn't mean it wasn't abuse.

I think they have more authority to say that it wasn't abuse since they are the ones who were actually involved. Have you even considered how potentially damaging, as well as degrading that it is to insist that someone who has stated emphatically she hasn't been abused, has in fact been abused? Grace Dunham asked her sister to continue to share a bed with her, for years. That indicates a profound level of trust. Yeah, I see some of their sisterly dynamics as peculiar and disconcerting am disgusted by Lena's actions, but I think it's in effect diminishing the severity of what true child molestation is by insisting that they're the same as Josh Duggar's as detailed in the police report.

Maybe Duggar should have used that defense.

I'm sure everyone would just relax and take claims of sexual assault against a male in their stride if they made some crack about being an unreliable narrator.

If it was anyone else I'd wonder if that was meant to be taken hyperbolically or not.

Lena Dunham apologized for insensitively and inappropriately using the term sexual predator in a facetious manner. She also explained how Grace Dunham had read the entire book before it was published and endorsed it then, and has vigorously stood by it and been far more hurt by the allegations against her sister and the attempt to turn her into a victim when she isn't one. Others don't have the right to misappropriate Grace Dunham's experiences and feelings to suit their agendas.

How exactly is grooming a younger child to kiss you and masturbating next to them in bed not molestation exactly?

Okay. At this point I just have to directly quote Robin Abcarian when she wrote, "If you believe for one second that Dunham was actually comparing herself to an adult child molester engaged in grooming behavior when she wrote that she bribed her sister “with three pieces of candy if I could kiss her on the lips for five seconds … anything a sexual predator might do to woo a small suburban girl,” your critical thinking skills are on life support."

You keep coming back to this one incident of Dunham's, when I've referred to far more incidents than that.

You haven't referred to any other incidents where she inappropriately touched private parts on her sister's body. You've referenced her touching herself while her sister was fast asleep in the bed they shared, and her "bribing" her sister to kiss her. In the same paragraph she also wrote about how she bribed her sister to let her put outlandish makeup on her for play. Crass, repulsive, wrong - yeah. But equivalent to child molestation? No.

And I get that kids explore their bodies, but you're not convincing me that a one-year old inserted pebbles into themselves

Why is it at all relevant if you're convinced?

 

[Ada Lovelace]

People did flip lids over it, from what I saw. Including myself. Tons of articles and harassment online, just like with Josh. That's the only reason any of us heard about it. The only difference I see is that her network didn't decide to drop her.

TLC hasn't actually dropped the Duggars, either. They've simply pulled all episodes off the air for now while deliberating on the next move, but have not actually cancelled the contract.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I'm not dedicating more time and keystrokes to addressing your repetitive statements but will address a few.

You are ignoring context like crazy. A male who made the same sorts of cracks would get far more backlash.

As for the tagline, don't concern yourself with it.

No, I'm anchoring your statements that are flying off with hot air balloons to context.

She did receive substantial backlash for crudely and insensitively describing herself in a joking, irreverent manner as a sexual predator, and she issued apologies for it. Some of her behavior as a kid was narcissistic and weird but nothing she's described constitutes molestation as the overwhelming majority of pediatrician, child experts, or other professionals would construe it.

Your tagline is appropriate because it conveys some of your attitudes displayed in this discussion.

I'd love to know how a longer police report somehow means Duggar's actions are weightier. Our allegedly misogynist society generally ignores female perpetrated sex abuse, so why in the world should the length of a police report have any bearing on anything here? All that demonstrates is men get the book thrown at them.

The police report in tandem to reason makes Duggar's actions weightier. If Lena Dunham or another woman with celebrity had as a teenager crept into the bedrooms of five younger girls, some of whom were close to being a decade younger, and fondled their breasts and genitals on numerous occasions over the course of a year, and the police report or other evidence of that emerged to the public's attention she'd be swiftly and widely repudiated and scorned.

Can we please now get back to the OP?

 

[Gadarene]

No, I'm anchoring your statements that are flying off with hot air balloons to context.

She did receive substantial backlash for crudely and insensitively describing herself in a joking, irreverent manner as a sexual predator, and she issued apologies for it. Some of her behavior as a kid was narcissistic and weird but nothing she's described constitutes molestation as the overwhelming majority of pediatrician, child experts, or other professionals would construe it.

Legal professionals too?

Your tagline is appropriate because it conveys some of your attitudes displayed in this discussion.

No, it really doesn't. It's a joke, one I picked mainly because I picked the avatar first and thought the tagline (which is a pre-existing meme) would suit it. The reason why I didn't bother addressing it is because I knew it wouldn't stop you from making crap up. What attitudes exactly do you think it conveys, oh person who only knows me through a handful of internet posts? This'll be good.

The police report in tandem to reason makes Duggar's actions weightier. If Lena Dunham or another woman with celebrity had as a teenager crept into the bedrooms of five younger girls, some of whom were close to being a decade younger, and fondled their breasts and genitals on numerous occasions over the course of a year, and the police report or other evidence of that emerged to the public's attention she'd be swiftly and widely repudiated and scorned.

The whole point is such a report is far less likely to have happened in the first place, in part because of the gendered double standards you tumble headlong into. What exactly is the relevance of age difference? A 14 year old masturbating next to an eight year old is what, just fine now and not sexually abusive at all? A six year age difference means it's totes fine, but a decade? That's clearly a problem.

You are presenting nothing but arbitrary lines in the sand.

Can we please now get back to the OP?

Checks for moderator icon - nope. I notice that crying "derailing" is a useful means for some of ignoring awkward points, but I see no reason to respect it.

And I notice you want to say stupid, offtopic things about me and my tagline, while topic-policing. Do try and have some consistency here.

 

[Gadarene]

Yes, you did write more than that, and caricatured it as a decade of systematic sexual abuse rather than a smattering of childhood incidents, that while discomfiting are not wild deviations from the range of normal sexual exploration and behavior for children in her age group. http://nctsn.org/nctsn_assets/pdfs/caring/sexualdevelopmentandbehavior.pdf

So what if it's less frequent? What about that makes it magically not abuse?

The only incident where she inappropriately touched her sister was one out of inquisitiveness when she was seven years old. It's preposterous to compare her touching herself as a kid while her sister was sleeping in the bed they shared to a teenager sneaking into the rooms of opposite-gender and much younger siblings to fondle them while she slept. Yes, I think it's icky that she would do that, and crass exhibition to then detail it in a book, but it's not the moral deviation you're bent on construing it to be, nor is it comparable to Josh Duggar's behavior. They're polar.

No, it isn't preposterous at all. Displays of sexual behaviour to minors are considered sexually abusive, even if the perp isn't laying a finger on the minor.

Kids have been masturbating since the dawn of humanity, and since it's not uncommon for siblings to share sleeping quarters, I'm willing to bet there have been many who done the same thing. Most just have the sense of propriety to know better than to write about such discomfiting and entirely private behavior in a book.

So what if they've been doing it since the dawn of humanity? People have abused kids since the dawn of humanity too, so what possible relevance does that have?

I think they have more authority to say that it wasn't abuse since they are the ones who were actually involved.

And given that one of the persons denying it was abusive was the ostensible perpetrator, why on earth should their statements be taken at face value?

Lena Dunham apologized for insensitively and inappropriately using the term sexual predator in a joking manner. She also explained how Grace Dunham had read the entire book before it was published and endorsed it then, and has vigorously stood by it and been far more hurt by the allegations against her sister and the attempt to turn her into a victim when she isn't one. Others don't have the right to misappropriate Grace Dunham's experiences and feelings to suit their agendas.

Wow, well, good thing no-one at all is doing that with the victims of Duggar, isn't it?

Okay. At this point I just have to directly quote Robin Abcarian when she wrote, "If you believe for one second that Dunham was actually comparing herself to an adult child molester engaged in grooming behavior when she wrote that she bribed her sister “with three pieces of candy if I could kiss her on the lips for five seconds … anything a sexual predator might do to woo a small suburban girl,” your critical thinking skills are on life support."

Firstly, it is well known that groomers do get their targets to perform acts by giving them gifts.

Now, while this may be harmless fun, I am disinclined to give Dunham the benefit of the doubt when a man making the same sort of admission would find himself facing much more opprobrium.

Heck, men get accused of being child molesters for taking their own children to the park, so a guy joking about being a child molester? That wouldn't be taken as a joke at all.

You haven't referred to any other incidents where she inappropriately touched private parts on her sister's body. You've referenced her touching herself while her sister was fast asleep in the bed they shared, and her "bribing" her sister to kiss her. In the same paragraph she also wrote about how she bribed her sister to let her put outlandish makeup on her for play.

See above re what is typically counted as sexually abusive behaviour towards minors.

Why is it at all relevant if you're convinced?

That was an invitation for you to do more to convince than go "it's normal no really".

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Legal professionals too?

Yes.

No, it really doesn't. It's a joke, one I picked mainly because I picked the avatar first and thought the tagline (which is a pre-existing meme) would suit it. The reason why I didn't bother addressing it is because I knew it wouldn't stop you from making crap up. What attitudes exactly do you think it conveys, oh person who only knows me through a handful of internet posts? This'll be good.

I "didn't make crap up," nor did I try to make assumptions about you beyond the context of this thread. I wrote that it "conveys some of your attitudes displayed in this discussion" because it does to me.

The whole point is such a report is far less likely to have happened in the first place, in part because of the gendered double standards you tumble headlong into. What exactly is the relevance of age difference? A 14 year old masturbating next to an eight year old is what, just fine now and not sexually abusive at all? A six year age difference means it's totes fine, but a decade? That's clearly a problem.

I'm not tumbling headlong into double standards; I'm discussing the factual differences between two diametric cases you're trying to commensurate. Age is of paramount importance when considering what constitutes aberrant and abusive sexual behavior. What is within the realms of normality for a 7-year-old is not the same as what it is for 14-year-olds.

Masturbation is antipodal to fondling. She was touching herself in the bed she shared with her sister, who was asleep at that time. She wasn't exposing herself to her sister, nor was she fondling her. It's not "just fine now" because it's still rude and self-possessed, unacceptable behavior, but it's idiotic to characterize it as sexual abuse like fondling a sleeping sibling. It should be added again the her sister was the one who pleaded with her to continue sharing the bed for years because it gave her comfort to have Lena there, which indicates a level of safety and trust. In contrast, Josh snuck into the rooms of the girls, and molested them while they slept.

You are presenting nothing but arbitrary lines in the sand.

No, actually I'm doing the opposite. I'm presenting what pediatricians and experts who are trained in childhood behavior have outlined as age-appropriate and deviant behavior. I'm also differentiating between unacceptable, weird behavior, and criminal behavior. Look up the legality of what he did, at his age, in comparison to her actions.

Checks for moderator icon - nope. I notice that crying "derailing" is a useful means for some of ignoring awkward points, but I see no reason to respect it.

And I notice you want to say stupid things about me, while topic-policing. Do try and have some consistency here.

I simply asked if we could please return to the thread topic. I didn't order it. I haven't ignored any awkward points, but I do feel like this line of discussion does depart from the original topic and would like to return to it.

You have been very consistent at hyperbolizing and mischaracterizing matters.

And no - it's not a dodge. It's just not willing to engage more than necessary.

And again - no. Not condoning her actions, or her. Just not equating them to his.

 

[Gadarene]

I "didn't make crap up,"

Yes, you are. You are claiming my tagline has relevance in this discussion when it does not.

nor did I try to make assumptions about you beyond the context of this thread.

And I never claimed you were going beyond the context of this thread, but even remaining within the context of this thread, I'd love to know what you've possibly managed to divine about me based on one throwaway tagline.

I wrote that it "conveys some of your attitudes displayed in this discussion" because it does to me.

And yet I notice you still don't name an attitude or how you think a jokey tagline conveys any of them. Still waiting.

I'm not tumbling headlong into double standards; I'm discussing the factual differences between two diametric cases you're trying to conflate. Age is of paramount importance when considering what constitutes aberrant and abusive sexual behavior. What is within the realms of normality for a 7-year-old is not the same as what it is for 14-year-olds.

And Dunham didn't stop her behaviour at 7 years old. Do you need it repeated for you again?

Masturbation is antipodal to fondling.

No, it isn't. It's a sexual act, and thus depending on the situation could still constitute sexual abuse. That's a commonality, not an opposite.

She was masturbating in the bed she shared with her sister, who was asleep at that time. She wasn't exposing herself to her sister, nor was she fondling her. It's not "just fine now" because it's still rude behavior, but it's idiotic to characterize it as sexual abuse like fondling a sleeping sibling.

No, actually I'm doing the opposite. I'm presenting what pediatricians and experts who are trained in childhood behavior have outlined as age-appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Look up the legality of what he did, at his age, in comparison to her actions.

Surely depends where you go. Here we have a sex crime category of sexual activity in the presence of a minor.

I asked if we could return to the subject after this derailment. I didn't order it.

There is nothing stopping you. Scroll down, make a new post or respond to someone else's posts as well as mine.

(I don't get people who whinge about "derailing", assuming they're not using it as a dodge - they don't seem to manage to ever talk about anything much else beyond the argument they're engaging with while claiming it's a derail.)

You have been very consistent at hyperbolizing and mischaracterizing matters.

Nice dodge, bravo

 

[Blue Wren]

It's not so hard to understand. The Duggar family set themselves up as being so much better than the rest of us heathens because they are "right with God and Jesus" and they have the proper attitudes and approach about sex and relationships and marriage. And raising kids, too.

And then this comes out about Josh. Ah, yes, what's that verse about pride going before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall???? That's the definition of KARMA in a nutshell.

This.

 

[Blue Wren]

If the incidents are comparable, they should be treated equally. Period.

As they aren't comparable, they aren't treated equally. Period. 14 and 7. Totally different context, all around, in every way. One can be put on a sex offender registry for his crimes, the other still has baby teeth.

 

[Armoured]

As they aren't comparable, they aren't treated equally. Period. 14 and 7. Totally different context, all around, in every way. One can be put on a sex offender registry for his crimes, the other still has baby teeth.

I'm not familiar with the other girl. No, I agree 14 and 7 aren't comparable. If 7 was the age when she last interfered with her sister, then her case is a bit of a red herring. But anyhoo.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

So if your child decides they don't want to go to the cops and your older child goes on to rape someone elses kid... sorry but that's on you.

No it's not, It's on the therapist, because they have to turn in illegal activity. Now, If she doesn't take her child to therapy or turn it in, it's on her. But just because a person prosecutes. Doesn't meant anything will happen.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

If the victim is a minor, they don't have a choice. At least they didn't back in 1988, when I went through it. I was molested by one of my older brothers and someone (we never figured out who) reported it. Someone from CPS came to my school and talked to me about it, and my brother was removed from our house. By this time he was actually 18, but since it all happened when he was still under 18 (and had in fact not been a recent occurrance when things came to a head), he was treated as a minor, and his record was sealed. I never asked if I wanted to press charges, and I never testified at any hearings. I went to counseling, as did he, first separately, and then together.

We got through it, got over it, and settled into a normal sibling relationship as it should be, and I put it behind me.

I don't think people really get that this is the normal, when dealing with teens that sexually assault siblings.

 

[Blue Wren]

Oh... I'm just too old and out of it to appreciate her . I just don't seem to recognise her, at all.

Although having skimmed the book (I'm that sad, I had to do it) I can see how people can compare two accounts of siblings who, for whatever reason, did both become engaged in using their younger siblings to satisfy their sexual explorations. If the bits of Miss Dunham's book are accurate, she bribed her younger sister to do various things outside of that initial act of curiosity.

Which, if accurate, makes it a fair comparison. I'm not condemning either child (as they were) for doing such things, but wording plays a huge part in how people interpret things. On the one hand Miss Dunham played it out as a joke, she and her sister are open about it and took a very different approach to it than Mr Duggar and his family. On the other Mr Duggar has always open open about it (apparently), just not to the media, which is understandable.

Lol, I don't appreciate her, either, and I'm not so old. Beyond the curiosity at age 7, Lena didn't touch her sister wrongly. She bribed her sister, with candy, for a kiss, and non-sexual affection. She masturbated in the bed she shared, with her sister, while the sister, was asleep, when she was a child. Sexual curiosity, both, maybe, but totally different actions & ages. His actions, show a clinical disposition for a paedophile, her's, just weirdness.

In Sweden, you would have to report his actions, to the authorities. There would not be a choice, in this matter, no. The parents, they could be held criminally liable, for not reporting, as his actions jeoparise the other children, in the household. They could lose custody of the other children, face prison. Hers, no, they would not be reported, due to age & nature, and it not being a crime.

 

[Cearbhall]

So if your child decides they don't want to go to the cops and your older child goes on to rape someone elses kid... sorry but that's on you.

Like I said, depends on the severity and other factors, such as age, intention, etc. If it were anything that would lead me to believe that this could happen, I would of course take action. Let's remember that if it's not a certain degree of sexual assault and the abuser is a minor, nothing is going to happen judicially that would keep him or her from assaulting someone down the road.

 

[Armoured]

I don't think people really get that this is the normal, when dealing with teens that sexually assault siblings.

Lets not forget it wasn't only siblings involved.

 

[Blue Wren]

Lets not forget it wasn't only siblings involved.

I wonder, if the parents, of the other victim, agreed with how the Duggars, handled it. If that victim, felt compelled to stay silent.