What will happen to the Messianic movement in 50 years ?

[Hoshiyya]

Let's say two people worship Moog.

One worships Moog on Wednesday, the other on Tuesday.
One worships Moog by occasionally speaking in one liturgical/sacred language, the other worships Moog by occasionalyl speaking in a different one.
One eats octopus, the other considers eating octopus a sin.
One keeps one calendar, the other keeps another calendar.
Hence one keeps one set of holidays, the other keeps another set of holidays.
One performs baptism to infants, the other circumcises infants.
One considers Moog to be a triune Moog, the other worships an undivided/unitarian Moog.

Saying they both worship Moog and that it is logical for them to have religious unity is ridiculous. They both have a completely different concept of how Moog is to - IN PRACTICE, not just in theory - be worshipped.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Catholics are monotheistic (we profess "We believe in ONE God" at every Mass) while Mormons are polytheistic/henotheistic. The fact that we are both moral is nice, but not sufficient to any sort of unison. I could progress further: Catholics are Nicene and Mormons are not. You simply can't combine a Christian Church with a non-Christian church.

Well there you go.

Those are good reasons for believing Messianics and Catholics and Mormons have no basis for religious-organizational unity.

I am a Monotheist, Catholics are Trinitarian, Mormons are Polytheist, but we all say we are Monotheist. So just because we say we are Monotheist, so what ?
It's not a basis for anything. Everyone says they are Monotheist.

But you keep overlooking my point. My point is that unity is based on SIMILARITY IN ACTIONS not theoretical ones. That's why I pointed out the de facto LIFESTYLE SIMILARITIES between Mormons and Catholics.

 

[Open Heart]

Mormons don't claim to be monotheistic. They admit to being henotheistic.

If you are monotheistic but not trinitarian, then I would say that you have an issue that needs to be worked out with the rest of the Church. It's not just Catholics that are Trinitarian, but 99% of the rest of Chrisitanity as well. In fact, some make this the dividing line for who is Christian and who is not -- the Nicene Creed.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I *am* a Catholic. I profess what Catholics profess and I do what Catholics do. The Catholic church is not opposed to my keeping Torah. The Hebrew Catholic movement is respected and approved by Rome. It is especially prominent in Israel. We have our own bishop, even. So.... For example, I keep the shabbat, and I also attend Mass. It's not so difficult to understand.

I think most Catholics in the world, including most of the popes of the past, would consider that absolute Judaizing heresy.

 

[Open Heart]

If both people worship Moog, but one wishes to worship him on Tuesday and the other on Wednesday, then they need to get together and work something out. It makes no sense for them to remain separate on such a piddly issue.

In my case, I prefer to keep my Sunday Mass obligation with the Saturday 4:00 vigil Mass, as that makes my Shabbat more meaningful. However, there have been times when I have missed my bus and have gone to Mass on Sunday. It's fine. Keeping Shabbat has to do with resting. We are really to worship Hashem every day. So I can keep Shabbat at home without attending a worship service, and I can keep my Mass obligation on either day. I'm sure that Torah observant Jews in other Christian churches do much the same.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Mormons don't claim to be monotheistic. They admit to being henotheistic.

If you are monotheistic but not trinitarian, then I would say that you have an issue that needs to be worked out with the rest of the Church. It's not just Catholics that are Trinitarian, but 99% of the rest of Chrisitanity as well. In fact, some make this the dividing line for who is Christian and who is not -- the Nicene Creed.

Mormons absolutely claim to be Monotheist. The word occurs many times in the book of Mormon.

I follow Messianic Judaism. I am not a Trinitarian, - there is no Trinitarianism in Judaism - nor a Catholic and don't really care if you consider me unchristian.

BUT YOU ARE AGGRESSIVELY IGNORING the point I am making and replying to just about everything I say except the parts that matter.

 

[Hoshiyya]

If both people worship Moog, but one wishes to worship him on Tuesday and the other on Wednesday, then they need to get together and work something out. It makes no sense for them to remain separate on such a piddly issue.

In my case, I prefer to keep my Sunday Mass obligation with the Saturday 4:00 vigil Mass, as that makes my Shabbat more meaningful. However, there have been times when I have missed my bus and have gone to Mass on Sunday. It's fine. Keeping Shabbat has to do with resting. We are really to worship Hashem every day. So I can keep Shabbat at home without attending a worship service, and I can keep my Mass obligation on either day. I'm sure that Torah observant Jews in other Christian churches do much the same.

How is the law of God a piddly issue ?

 

[Open Heart]

I think most Catholics in the world, including most of the popes of the past, would consider that absolute Judaizing heresy.

A lot of catholics don't understand it, mostly because they've never run into it before and don't understand WHY I would want to remain observant. But the Catholic church has truly done a turn around in it's treatment of the Jews, and of Jewish Catholics.

I used to correspond with a Hebrew Catholic down in Columbia who was good friends with the Chief Rabbi. In addition to keeping all his Catholic obligations (he was quite devout), he attended synagogue REGULARLY. He was well known in the Catholic church.

It's just not considered Judaizing. Judaizing would be if I preached that gentile believers had to be Torah observant. I don't. It's for me because I'm a Jew.

 

[Open Heart]

I follow Messianic Judaism. I am not a Trinitarian, - there is no Trinitarianism in Judaism - nor a Catholic and don't really care if you consider me unchristian.

I don't want to make this personal, and I'm sorry if I crossed the line.

MJAA and UMJC are both Trinitarian. If your synagogue is not trinitarian, I would say it is the exception and not the rule.

BUT YOU ARE AGGRESSIVELY IGNORING the point I am making and replying to just about everything I say except the parts that matter.

I am really not trying to be difficult. I know what it feels like to have the other person squirm around a question. If you will be so kind as to state your point clearly and succinctly one more time, I promise you I will do my best to answer it. Thanks.

 

[Open Heart]

How is the law of God a piddly issue ?

Unity is also the law of God.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

I *am* a Catholic. I profess what Catholics profess and I do what Catholics do. The Catholic church is not opposed to my keeping Torah.

I hope you realize how short of a period of time this has been true. Innumerable people were murdered by RCC for keeping the commandments of The Almighty. This last Passover happened to coincide with "good friday". I thought it would be a good idea to select 2 spotless male lambs o the 10th, and slaughter them on the 14th to teach about the fulfillment of this prophetic time. I put a lot of time and money into making this happen. I found out at the last minute that in the country I now live in, all the Christians thought it was horrible to eat meat on "good friday". People are poor and don't eat meat often, so they accepted it anyway. It was interesting that most of these people were Protestant, but this original Catholic lie had persisted so far. I'm dissuading you from bridging the gap, so to speak. However it is not accurate to portray this as some sort of given.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Unity is also the law of God.

The law of God matters. If some people celebrate on Shabbat, they will meet on Shabbat, and hold a holy convocation on the day Hashem commanded.
Those who want to meet on Sunday instead are certainly free to do so. There are actual differences in interpretation of how God wants us to live.

SMALL differences in praxis, and even BIG differences in theology, can be overlooked, if the general lifestyle and worship is similar. But if there are big differences, like diet, calendar, holy days, liturgy, etc. then those cannot be ignored.

I think Messiancis need to overcome their differences in theology, and work together to the extent they are able. Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Anglicanism etc etc are completely off the radar.

I don't think God commanded me to have religious-organizational unity with Muslims, Catholics etc. But if he did, it would probably mean he wanted me to be either Muslim or Catholic.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Hoshiyya, the calendar issue is probably the most divisive. I found myself in this trap for a while. I observe the "Lunar Sabbath" personally, but I don't feel it is essential. There isn't a scrap of evidence to support a Saturday Sabbath prior to Constantine, but there is a mountain of evidence for Lunar Sabbath. At the end of the day Torah is simply not that specific. Ironically I started out keeping a Sunday Sabbath. I only looked into it because of Messianic assumptions that Saturday is the true Sabbath. Of course what I found it that the lunar Sabbath is the only possible historic Sabbath. The icing on the cake is that it perfectly fulfills Genesis 1:14.

All that said, I don't consider it a sin the unite on a particular day for Sabbath as it is not specified in Torah.

 

[Hoshiyya]

If you will be so kind as to state your point clearly and succinctly one more time, I promise you I will do my best to answer it.

OK let me be succinct:

Unity should be based on similarity in our actions, praxis, deeds, worship, and by worship I mean practical worship.

THEORITCAL similarities do not form basis for unity, generally.

 

[Open Heart]

Please show me where it says that part of keeping the Shabbat is coming together to worship Hashem. The way I've always read Torah is that keeping Shabbat is resting and we have to know how to rest. Worshiping Hashem is something the Israelites did every day, whether it was the daily sacrifices in the tabernacle in the wilderness, or the daily prayers in orthodox synagogues today. If you can show me where coming together in a congregation is clearly connected with the Shabbat, I would truly be interested.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Hoshiyya, the calendar issue is probably the most divisive. I found myself in this trap for a while. I observe the "Lunar Sabbath" personally, but I don't feel it is essential. There isn't a scrap of evidence to support a Saturday Sabbath prior to Constantine, but there is a mountain of evidence for Lunar Sabbath. At the end of the day Torah is simply not that specific. Ironically I started out keeping a Sunday Sabbath. I only looked into it because of Messianic assumptions that Saturday is the true Sabbath. Of course what I found it that the lunar Sabbath is the only possible historic Sabbath. The icing on the cake is that it perfectly fulfills Genesis 1:14.

All that said, I don't consider it a sin the unite on a particular day for Sabbath as it is not specified in Torah.

Well this perfectly validates what I have previously said: We as Messianics need the Jewish calendar to have true unity. This relates of course to holy days, and not just weekly Sabbaths as well.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Please show me where it says that part of keeping the Shabbat is coming together to worship Hashem. The way I've always read Torah is that keeping Shabbat is resting and we have to know how to rest. Worshiping Hashem is something the Israelites did every day, whether it was the daily sacrifices in the tabernacle in the wilderness, or the daily prayers in orthodox synagogues today. If you can show me where coming together in a congregation is clearly connected with the Shabbat, I would truly be interested.

You kidding me ?

Typically it is the day people went to Temple and Synagogue.

But I can tell you are going to dispute everything I say now.

 

[Open Heart]

If you will be so kind as to state your point clearly and succinctly one more time, I promise you I will do my best to answer it.

OK let me be succinct:

Unity should be based on similarity in our actions, praxis, deeds, worship, and by worship I mean practical worship.

THEORITCAL similarities do not form basis for unity, generally.

Okay you are right, I did ignore this. I assumed you would understand that by ignoring it I was expressing simple disagreement. It sounds sensible, but it gets overruled by scripture. I did offer up my own opinion in its place: that disunity is not an option because disunity is a sin. All baptized believers MUST be in union or we are in a state of sin--and yes the body of Christ is presently in a state of sin, IMHO.

 

[Open Heart]

Typically it is the day people went to Temple and Synagogue.
.

Yes, and they still do to this day. But it is not required. For example, women often stay home with the kids. Jews outside of walking distance stay home rather than drive if they are orthodox, without violating sabbath law.

I'm not trying to be a buggaboo. I'm reading you carefully with respect. I don't find your answers to be foolish. The fact that I disagree doesn't mean that I'm disagreeing out of reflex.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Typically it is the day people went to Temple and Synagogue.

Okay you are right, I did ignore this. I assumed you would understand that by ignoring it I was expressing simple disagreement. It sounds sensible, but it gets overruled by scripture. I did offer up my own opinion in its place: that disunity is not an option because disunity is a sin. All baptized believers MUST be in union or we are in a state of sin--and yes the body of Christ is presently in a state of sin, IMHO.

Well ... then I guess you are wrong. (In my opinion.) In other words, we disagree.

"It sounds sensible, but it gets overruled by scripture."

Then I guess your interpretation of scripture is, by your own implication, un-sensible.

At the tower of Babel, that's unity.

I don't want that kind of unity. I want unity based on commonalities, unity based on Torah-keeping.