What was the approximate date of the Flood?

juvenissun

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All this is based off of assumption. There is no way to know for a fact about these processes because there are always assumptions being made - for example, that present-day processes happen at the same speed as the past. Then, again, such interpretations in the fossil record are subject to misinterpretation. Creationists have their own interpretation of all of these things - see Creation Ministries International.

Some of the concludes have fewer assumptions. And some of the assumptions can be evaluated. Every process allowed a range of variation on its acting parameters. And some processes are relative simple and benign.

Examples are many. You can afford not to look at them. But I can not.
 
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Achilles6129

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Some of the concludes have fewer assumptions. And some of the assumptions can be evaluated. Every process allowed a range of variation on its acting parameters. And some processes are relative simple and benign.

Examples are many. You can afford not to look at them. But I can not.

There are reasonable explanations for all of these things you are talking about that correlate with a young earth. Why not visit Creation Ministries International and see what they have to say?

Age of the earth
 
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ErezY

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Have you guys ever heard of this? I found it facinating to consider.

creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview2.html
New evidence shows that the earth has experienced a devastating, worldwide flood, whose waters violently burst forth from under earth’s crust. Standard “textbook” explanations for many of earth’s major features are scientifically flawed. We can now explain, using well-understood phenomena, how this cataclysmic event rapidly formed so many features. These and other mysteries, listed below and briefly described in the next 11 pages, are best explained by an earthshaking event, far more catastrophic than almost anyone has imagined. Entire chapters are devoted to the italicized topics listed below.
  • The Grand Canyon (pages 203–236)
  • Mid-Oceanic Ridge
  • Earth’s Major Components
  • Oceanic Trenches, Earthquakes, and the Ring of Fire (pages 151–185)
  • Magnetic Variations on the Ocean Floor
  • Submarine Canyons
  • Coal and Oil
  • Methane Hydrates
  • Ice Age
  • Frozen Mammoths (pages 253–283)
  • Major Mountain Ranges
  • Overthrusts
  • Volcanoes and Lava
  • Geothermal Heat
  • Strata and Layered Fossils (pages 187–199)
  • Limestone (pages 245–250)
  • Metamorphic Rock
  • Plateaus
  • The Moho and Black Smokers
  • Salt Domes
  • Jigsaw Fit of the Continents
  • Changing Axis Tilt
  • Comets (pages 287–319)
  • Asteroids and Meteoroids (pages 321–347)
  • Earth’s Radioactivity (pages 349–394)
Each appears to be a consequence of a sudden, unrepeatable event—a global flood whose waters erupted from interconnected, worldwide subterranean chambers with an energy release exceeding the explosion of trillions of hydrogen bombs.1 The hydroplate theory, explained later in this chapter, will resolve all these mysteries.
But first, what is a hydroplate? Before the global flood, considerable water was under earth’s crust. Pressure increases in this subterranean water ruptured that crust, breaking it into plates. The escaping water flooded the earth. Because hydro means water, those crustal plates will be called hydroplates. Where they broke, how they moved, and hundreds of other details and evidence—all consistent with the laws of physics—constitute the hydroplate theory and explain to a great extent why the earth looks as it does.

And here is a youtube video explaining it
youtube.com/watch?v=7zkrJG4XUeo
 
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juvenissun

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There are reasonable explanations for all of these things you are talking about that correlate with a young earth. Why not visit Creation Ministries International and see what they have to say?

Age of the earth

I am glad that their work satisfies you. You are blessed.

But it does not happen the same to me. I can see many problems on what they said. And that is my burden.

I am not trying to debate this with you. But if you like to know one or two examples of the problem, I can try to do some explanations.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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"40 The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years. 41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, on that very day, all the companies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt. " Ex. 12:40-41 (NRSV)


In this case, then Israelites must have come into Egypt around 1876 BC. When the Israelites came into Egypt Jacob was 130 years old, meaning that Jacob was born around 2006 BC. Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born, so the birth of Isaac is 2066 BC (+-1). Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born, so his birth was 2166 BC (+-2).


We can go all the way back to the Flood. The only small problem is Terah - he was 130 when Abraham was born (see Acts 7:4). So adding up the geneaologies from the birth of Abraham we get:


130+29+30+32+30+34+30+35+2=352. Since the birth of Abraham was in 2166 BC (+-2), then the Flood would have been in 2518 BC (+-11).


We then go back 1656 (+-9) more years for the creation of Adam:


4174 BC (+-20)


So the main dates are as follows:


The Creation: 4174 BC (+-20)
The Flood: 2518 BC (+-11)
Israel was not in Egypt for 430 years.
The promise was made to Abraham exactly 430 years to the day of the Exodus.
They came out in the fourth generation from Abraham, an God counted the generations promised differently than we would think, for Moses was the son of Jochebed, who was the daughter of Levi, who was born to him at the gates of Egypt. She married the son of her brother, and God counted Moses the son of Levi, then, through her.


Moses was 82 when they came out of Egypt, and his mother was born when Israel entered Egypt. Adding up the years in Genesis to Exodus gets 210 years in Egypt, and only after Joseph died did Egypt begin to be oppressive to Israel because they feared them, and slowly, by degrees, they took away everything and enslaved them.

The promise was made 430 years before they exited Egypt
Moses was 82
430 - 82 =348 years from the promise to Moses birth

Moses was the son of Jochebed, the daughter of Levi
Jochebed was born to Levi at the gates of Egypt.
Exd 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years.
Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.


Now, the book of Jasher states Jochebed was 128 years old when Moses was born
348 -128 - 220 from the promise to the entry of Egypt.

430 -220 = 210 years in Egypt, and Joseph was 39 years old when they entered, and was king in Egypt after they entered for 39 more years. Jochebd was 39, then, when Joseph died, and Moses was born only 43 years later.

So the years from Joseph's death to Moses birth were 43. Israel was not oppressed immediately, but gradually, so that by the time Moses was born, they were drowning the baby boys [which stopped upon Moses' adoption, BTW].

Moses fled Egypt at age 18 -not age 40, and fled to Cush [translated Ethiopia but it was not present Ethiopia]; he then saved the kingdom by wisdom; married the widowed Cush-ite/Ethiopian queen by request of the Cush-ite people, when the king had later died; and ruled the land until the prince born to the late king grew up and became king.

Moses went away in peace, and came to Midian, where he later married Ziporrah, after a few more adventures -like being imprisoned by her father for ten years because he feared the Pharaoh and knew who Moses was. Moses and Zipporah were only married a few years and their two sons were less than age 3 when God sent Him to Egypt to deliver His people, age 80, cause it was the promised time.

Now: 210 years in Egypt and Jacob 130 when they entered =80 years earlier the promise was given.

Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born.
80 -60 =20
The promise, then, was given to Abraham 20 years before Isaac was born.
Ishmael was born 15 years before Isaac, so the promise was given to Abraham 5 years before Ishmael was born.

Abraham was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old, also, not 130. That is an error of Usher.

But the Book of Jasher takes all the pain out of searching through the accounts to add and subtract and get the right dates laboriously, because Jasher has the full chronology from Adam to the exodus from Egypt.
Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com



Because Jochebed was Moses mother, and because Moses was 82 when Israel exited Egypt, then there is no way Israel was in Egypt 430 years. That would make Jochebed 348 years old when she gave birth to Moses. Now Noah's wife was a hundred years older than he and he did not have children until after he married her at age 500, but by Jochebed's time, they were not having children at age 348, though she was 128.
 
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EternalDragon

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In the world of 3 ½ dimension we live in, I have serious problem with that idea. We do not have enough water to cover the land that high. All these year counts are human's idea. The Bible does not say it and I do not accept it.

If subduction happened on the ocean floor and pushed it up, the ocean water would flood every continent completely. If it then went back down, the waters would return to normal.

The ocean floor is a layer of tectonic plates floating on magma. Also when water heats up, it expands.

Are you taking into consideration all the ice still on some continents? We had some melting these past few years and it has raised sea levels.

Sea Level Rise -- National Geographic
 
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juvenissun

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If subduction happened on the ocean floor and pushed it up, the ocean water would flood every continent completely. If it then went back down, the waters would return to normal.

The ocean floor is a layer of tectonic plates floating on magma. Also when water heats up, it expands.

Are you taking into consideration all the ice still on some continents? We had some melting these past few years and it has raised sea levels.

Sea Level Rise -- National Geographic

Once an ocean basin is made, then the water in it will NOT swell back to continent except some cases like tsunami. The formation of oceanic basins is a perfect explanation to the retreat of the Global Flood. This implies that during the Global Flood, the earth did not have the feature we call it oceanic basin today.

The ancient ocean on the Mars might be the thing Earth had before the Global Flood.
 
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Achilles6129

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I am glad that their work satisfies you. You are blessed.

But it does not happen the same to me. I can see many problems on what they said. And that is my burden.

I am not trying to debate this with you. But if you like to know one or two examples of the problem, I can try to do some explanations.

If you believe they are incorrect, why not go to their website and write them an email on the errors you believe they have made? A discussion with them could be very fruitful. They read their emails and often publish them on their website.
 
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Achilles6129

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Israel was not in Egypt for 430 years.
The promise was made to Abraham exactly 430 years to the day of the Exodus.

You are incorrect and are using extrabiblical sources:

"40 The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years. 41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, on that very day, all the companies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt." Ex. 12:40-41 (NRSV)

Abraham was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old, also, not 130. That is an error of Usher.

Not true:

" 4 Then he left the country of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. After his father died, God had him move from there to this country in which you are now living. " Ac. 7:4 (NRSV)

"4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran." Gen. 12:4 (NRSV)

"32 The days of Terah were two hundred five years; and Terah died in Haran." Gen. 11:32 (NRSV)

Add the verses together. Terah died at 205 and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Acts 7:4 says that Abraham left Haran after the death of his father. Therefore, Abraham was born when Terah was 130 years old.

You are going off of extra-Biblical chronology. This is unnecessary - the Bible itself gives you everything you need to figure everything out - you do not have to reference the book of Jashar.
 
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juvenissun

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If you believe they are incorrect, why not go to their website and write them an email on the errors you believe they have made? A discussion with them could be very fruitful. They read their emails and often publish them on their website.

They are professional geologists and scientists. They know very well what the mainstream geological arguments are. There is no need to remind them on anything.

They have their mission, and I support them. This does not mean I agree with what they claimed. You are one of their audience. But I am not. So I am not talking to you on this issues. Unless you want to hear something different.
 
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Achilles6129

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They are professional geologists and scientists. They know very well what the mainstream geological arguments are. There is no need to remind them on anything.

They have their mission, and I support them. This does not mean I agree with what they claimed. You are one of their audience. But I am not. So I am not talking to you on this issues. Unless you want to hear something different.

Well, they evidently feel that they have very real evidence that the mainstream geological arguments are false. Or else they would not be publishing books/articles about it and making it public. If what they are saying is so obviously incorrect it would be easy to make them look foolish.
 
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greentwiga

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You are incorrect and are using extrabiblical sources:

"40 The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years. 41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, on that very day, all the companies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt." Ex. 12:40-41 (NRSV)



Not true:

" 4 Then he left the country of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. After his father died, God had him move from there to this country in which you are now living. " Ac. 7:4 (NRSV)

"4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran." Gen. 12:4 (NRSV)

"32 The days of Terah were two hundred five years; and Terah died in Haran." Gen. 11:32 (NRSV)

Add the verses together. Terah died at 205 and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Acts 7:4 says that Abraham left Haran after the death of his father. Therefore, Abraham was born when Terah was 130 years old.

You are going off of extra-Biblical chronology. This is unnecessary - the Bible itself gives you everything you need to figure everything out - you do not have to reference the book of Jashar.


There are four quotes in the Bible as to the length of time from various points in the Patriarchs lives to other points like the Exodus, the giving of the law, etc. You quoted the usual version of Ex 12:40, giving 430 years in Egypt. Paul tells us that it was 430 years from the giving of the promise to the giving of the law (Gal 3:17). In Acts 13:19, Paul describes the choosing of the fathers to the dividing of the land as 450 years. Acts 7:6, quoting Gen 15:13 says the time of being strangers and enslaved is 400 years. The other three verses give about 215 years in Egypt, conflicting with Exodus 12. There is a variant reading of Exodus 12:40 that states the time in Canaan and in Egypt was 430 years. This variant agrees with the other three verses. Since the Bible agrees with itself, I use the variant reading. It was 215 years in Egypt. Using this, I find that Joseph is mentioned in Egyptian history.
 
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juvenissun

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Well, they evidently feel that they have very real evidence that the mainstream geological arguments are false. Or else they would not be publishing books/articles about it and making it public. If what they are saying is so obviously incorrect it would be easy to make them look foolish.

To mainstream scientists, include many Christians, they are foolish.

That is why I say they have their (special) missions. They published their scientific idea about creationism. The main audience is not the mainstream scientists, but are people like you. I think they are successful and I am glad for them. The non-scientific Christian community needs them.

Besides, a non-creation scientist may feel what they said are ridiculous. However, seriously, no one can actually "prove" that they are wrong. It is only that their models do not fit a lot of data people gethered from scientific studies. That is why I can still defend a little on their position against the attack of evolutionist in most cases. The only thing I don't agree is the 6000+ years old earth measured (or calculated) according to our time scale. I think it is NOT essential for YEC. I always said: a 6 million years old earth is still a VERY YOUNG earth.
 
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greentwiga

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To mainstream scientists, include many Christians, they are foolish.


That is why I say they have their (special) missions. They published their scientific idea about creationism. The main audience is not the mainstream scientists, but are people like you. I think they are successful and I am glad for them. The non-scientific Christian community needs them.

Besides, a non-creation scientist may feel what they said are ridiculous. However, seriously, no one can actually "prove" that they are wrong. It is only that their models do not fit a lot of data people gethered from scientific studies. That is why I can still defend a little on their position against the attack of evolutionist in most cases. The only thing I don't agree is the 6000+ years old earth measured (or calculated) according to our time scale. I think it is NOT essential for YEC. I always said: a 6 million years old earth is still a VERY YOUNG earth.

Go on some other forums with the young earth "Data" these sights use. It is like hanging a piece of meat in front of a gator. They love to decimate YECers. They can point out how each and every bit of evidence is foolish.

I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes each and every word of the Bible is true, and that the Bible has no problem with evolution, and the earth being billions of years old. I also have no problem with the flood being regional and about 3,000 BC.
 
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Achilles6129

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To mainstream scientists, include many Christians, they are foolish.

That is why I say they have their (special) missions. They published their scientific idea about creationism. The main audience is not the mainstream scientists, but are people like you. I think they are successful and I am glad for them. The non-scientific Christian community needs them.

Besides, a non-creation scientist may feel what they said are ridiculous. However, seriously, no one can actually "prove" that they are wrong. It is only that their models do not fit a lot of data people gethered from scientific studies. That is why I can still defend a little on their position against the attack of evolutionist in most cases. The only thing I don't agree is the 6000+ years old earth measured (or calculated) according to our time scale. I think it is NOT essential for YEC. I always said: a 6 million years old earth is still a VERY YOUNG earth.

I see. Well they seem to do pretty well in debates for being so foolish. Perhaps you should email some of your concerns to them and see what they say.

Go on some other forums with the young earth "Data" these sights use. It is like hanging a piece of meat in front of a gator. They love to decimate YECers. They can point out how each and every bit of evidence is foolish.

Strange that they don't write in to CMI and prove how foolish they are, then.

I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes each and every word of the Bible is true, and that the Bible has no problem with evolution, and the earth being billions of years old. I also have no problem with the flood being regional and about 3,000 BC.

If you believe each and every word of the Bible is true then you cannot possibly believe in evolution and must believe in a global flood.
 
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Achilles6129

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There are four quotes in the Bible as to the length of time from various points in the Patriarchs lives to other points like the Exodus, the giving of the law, etc. You quoted the usual version of Ex 12:40, giving 430 years in Egypt. Paul tells us that it was 430 years from the giving of the promise to the giving of the law (Gal 3:17). In Acts 13:19, Paul describes the choosing of the fathers to the dividing of the land as 450 years. Acts 7:6, quoting Gen 15:13 says the time of being strangers and enslaved is 400 years. The other three verses give about 215 years in Egypt, conflicting with Exodus 12. There is a variant reading of Exodus 12:40 that states the time in Canaan and in Egypt was 430 years. This variant agrees with the other three verses. Since the Bible agrees with itself, I use the variant reading. It was 215 years in Egypt. Using this, I find that Joseph is mentioned in Egyptian history.

Let's look first at Galatians 3:17:

"16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring;[f] it does not say, “And to offsprings,”[g] as of many; but it says, “And to your offspring,”[h] that is, to one person, who is Christ. 17 My point is this: the law, which came four hundred thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise." Gal. 3:16-17 (NRSV)

Notice it says that the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. Jacob is one of his offspring - Jacob came into Egypt, exactly as God told Abraham. Four hundred and thirty years later the law was given at Mt. Sinai. It is unnecessary to insert words into Paul's writings when there are none there.

In Acts 13:19, the next passage you cite, the verse is talking about the time from the end of the Exodus through the judges and to King Saul - a time period that Paul says is about 450 years:

"17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and [b]made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it. 18 For a period of about forty years He put up with them in the wilderness. 19 When He had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, He distributed their land as an inheritance—all of which took about four hundred and fifty years. 20 After these things He gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years." Acts. 13:17-21 (NASB)

It is possible that Paul is saying here that the time from the Exodus to the time God "distributed their land as an inheritance" it took about 450 years. Regardless, he is not saying what you are claiming.

As far as Gen. 15:13 is concerned, a round number is simply being used. Elsewhere we learn that it is in fact 430 years.
 
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juvenissun

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Go on some other forums with the young earth "Data" these sights use. It is like hanging a piece of meat in front of a gator. They love to decimate YECers. They can point out how each and every bit of evidence is foolish.

I am a fundamentalist Christian who believes each and every word of the Bible is true, and that the Bible has no problem with evolution, and the earth being billions of years old. I also have no problem with the flood being regional and about 3,000 BC.

Do you want to try one to see how could you decimate me by any piece of those data?
 
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