What tongue is not (?)

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IKTCA

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I would like to have an open dialogue about what tongue is and is not, one topic at a time.

Is tongue a superior prayer language? If two pray, one in German and the other in tongues, does God hear the latter and reject the former? Or does the latter please God more than the former?

PS: I hope this dialogue helps new believers understand tongues.
 

gratefulgrace

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There are tongues of men and of angels the Bible is pretty clear about that.
Neither has an edge in communicating with God they are just different. Tongues are called a sign for unbelievers in 1Corinthians 14:22.
1Corinthians 12 13 and 14 gives a pretty clear description of the sign and its proper use.

Tongues in scripture also relates to the vast number of dialects in the whole world. Revelation 7:9
There are usually many different dialects(tongues) within one nation as seen in Revelation 10:11.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Per 1 Cor 14:1-4 the prayer language is between you and God only. If the prayer language is exercised as a message to the body of believers present, then we must also pray that we give the interpretation.
 
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Optimax

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I would like to have an open dialogue about what tongue is and is not, one topic at a time.

Is tongue a superior prayer language? If two pray, one in German and the other in tongues, does God hear the latter and reject the former? Or does the latter please God more than the former?

PS: I hope this dialogue helps new believers understand tongues.

God certainly hears and answers the prayer in tongues as it is a perfect prayer.

God hears the prayer prayed with the understanding what ever the language.
The question is will he answer it?
That depends on if the prayer was scriptural and prayed in faith.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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When you pray in tongues, it comes from your own spirit. It is you attempting to express to God that which your mind cannot adequately express in your known language. Sometimes it is nothing but growns and cries. Essentially there is NOTHING supernatural about this activity. Everyone has inexpressible spiritual movements and anyone can speak forth soundings from those movements. And yes, it is for all intents and perposes gibberish to our ears and the ears of those hearing it. The supernatural element of the prayer language exists completely and solely in God. He hears these soundings, and by His supernatural power and ability looks into your spirit, and finds the meaning there. But there is nothing supernatural or powerful in your speaking. It is merely you attempting to express that which your mind finds inexpressable. This is what Paul said:

1 Corinthians 14: KJV
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


This of course is different from the Spiritual Gift "diversities of tongues" which is the Holy Spirit enabled and is super natural. But mere praying in tongues is not supernatural in its delivery. It is just you bubbling up from your own sounds totally meaningless to anyone who might hear them. Only God knows your heart and the meaning of these soundings.

Romans 8:26
26 In the same way, the spirit (within us) is aiding our infirmities because we know not what we should pray for as required: but the same spirit (within us) spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered in articulate language
 
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IKTCA

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Thank you all for taking time to write in this thread for new believers. I also would like to write a few points for them.

1. Tongues are not a superior prayer language. Joseph lifted prayers in Egypt and God heard them and granted his requests. There is no indication in the Bible that Joseph prayed in tongues. Moses always prayed to God for Israel and God heard all. Again, the Bible does not record Moses prayed in tongues. Even Jesus prayed in a human language - otherwise, the disciples would not have known what he prayed - and God granted all his requests.

What pleases God is a prayer from the sincere heart, not in a specific language.

2. Tongues does not automatically make prayers pure and worthy. I used to attend Wednesday prayer meetings at a certain church. When we were told to stand and pray in tongues, I prayed as loudly as those next to me, thinking, "I, too, can speak in tongues. Here I go." This is a proud prayer. God does not hear such prayers.

Again, what makes a prayer pure and worthy is the purity of heart.

3. Still, tongues is a beautiful gift from God. Believers can experience goodness of God and His kingdom directly or indirectly through tongues. But since there is so much misinformation in the church, I recommend not to learn from man, but from the Lord.

4. God commanded (through Paul) to all tongue speakers to receive interpretation. Therefore, those of us who have not received interpretation need to remain humble, acknowledging we are in disobedience to God. Once we receive interpretation, we will become humble in this area.

I hope no one stumbles over tongues.
 
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Prizm

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When we were told to stand and pray in tongues, I prayed as loudly as those next to me, thinking, "I, too, can speak in tongues. Here I go." This is a proud prayer. God does not hear such prayers.

Again, what makes a prayer pure and worthy is the purity of heart.

You may be thinking it in a proud way, but it doesn't mean the others in the prayer meeting were. If praying in tongues is the standard in the church and the majority are baptized in the Holy Spirit, why would they be doing it in pride? To impress the few that might not be filled? If by some chance they happened to be standing nearby?
Most pentecostals would want their fellow believers to be filled, not feel some sort of pride that they have something that another doesn't.

I'm not sure if you're implying this, but praying loudly doesn't mean a person is prideful. Psalms says make a joyful noise unto the Lord. God never asks us to subdue our worship or do it quietly. He loves our praises. As long as there's overall order in the church service, this should never be an issue.

4. God commanded (through Paul) to all tongue speakers to receive interpretation. Therefore, all tongue speakers who have not received interpretation need to remain humble, acknowledging they are in disobedience to God.

I think you're referring to what Paul said in I Cor. 14:28 "if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church". Here Paul is talking about the gift of kinds of tongues as exercised for the edification of the church. He's not talking about the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. These are two separate elements.

One is for the edification of one's own spirit (personal prayer), the other is for the edification of the church.

In fact, when one legitimately speaks out in tongues for the purpose of interpretation in a church service, they are specifically compelled and quickened by the Holy Spirit to do so. It's not their carnal minds thinking "hey, I think I'll speak in tongues this morning and get an interpretation". It would follow then, that we simply would not be able to speak in tongues normally at home or in prayer, if God didn't want us to use it at those times. But we can, so we should.

We would be doing ourselves a great disservice if we only used our spiritual tongue when compelled to by God during a church service.
As Paul says, "I will pray with the spirit [tongues], and I will pray with the understanding [known language]" (I Cor. 14:15). We should be praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit (Eph. 6:18). And sometimes we don't know what we should pray, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us (Rom. 8:26).
 
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shine_every_day

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I think that God answers to any kind of prayer if you have a heart for Him and faith.If people pray in laoguages they are not superior.I love to see people praying in languages or in their own language.I haven't met somebody who prayed in languages only because of pride.That`s not speaking on languages,that's sin.
 
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IKTCA

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Prizm,

4. God commanded (through Paul) to all tongue speakers to receive interpretation. Therefore, those of us who have not received interpretation need to remain humble, acknowledging we are in disobedience to God. Once we receive interpretation, we will become humble in this area.

My apology for not being clear.

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. (1 Cor 14:13)
 
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tturt

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It doesn't say - and you'll always interpret (I cor 14:13).

What about spiritual songs?

Every spiritual gift has a learning period such as the school of prophets with Elijah. How much more difficult would it be to give a message in tongues if you're concerned the interpretation won't be given by yourself or someone else.

Those who have the gift of interpretation don't always give those messages of interpretation. But the person who gave the message in tongues would be in disobedience according to some info posted here.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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Superstition and misconceptions abound on this topic, primarily so people who derive pleasure from babbling in nonsense syllables can find justification for calling this a "holy" and "spiritual" activity prompted by the Divine One. In reality, the first instance of the apostles speaking in tongues sets the real definition of the gift which constitutes a miracle from God Himself rather than a fake. The true and original tongues on the day of Pentecost did not merely consist of babbling in nonsense syllables or even merely speaking a language no human had ever heard before, but in specifically speaking an unknown language which caused everyone around them to hear the words spoken AS IF they'd spoken in all their native tongues at once. This TRULY was a supernatural act and a divine language to cause such a result.

Like all other true gifts from God, it has been counterfeited to the hilt, mimicked by humans, and then given alternative definitions to pretend to justify these aberrations and false imitations. It has become something coveted by spiritual pride, used to show off, and even imposed as a burden on believers to "prove" to others that they "really" have the Holy Spirit, when the Bible has made it clear that the Spirit gives DIVERSE gifts as HE wills.

Those operating from different spirits can produce a true and verifiable glossolalia superior to the counterfeits in churches, but no one other than God Himself can produce the true and actual Holy Spirit gift of tongues as defined by the events of the original Pentecost: one divine language heard by all listening as if spoken in their native tongue.
 
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tturt

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MCW I'm sorry you've had so many negative experiences.

I believe this subject (and a lot of other Biblical subjects) is a lot more varied than our understanding at this time.

If the unknown tongue is suppose to be in the receiver's native language or received as such, there would not be a gift of interpretation though (I Cor 12:10) nor edification of the speaker (I Cor 14:4) nor 1 Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him...

If a believer is never to speak in their unknown tongue for personal edification in the church - then when someone ask for prayer to receive, then why pray for them to receive while at church? Granted not everyone receives while they're at church but some do.
 
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Prizm

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the events of the original Pentecost: one divine language heard by all listening as if spoken in their native tongue.

Hi Moriah,

I don't think any of us are saying that tongues cannot be an earthly language. In fact I've heard of numerous accounts over the years where one speaking in tongues is understood by someone of a different country.

You're the first person I've spoken to that has a view that the disciples seemed to speak one unknown tongue, and that it was supernaturally translated for every foreigner to understand in their own tongue. Other pentecostals I've spoken to believe the disciples all spoke with different tongues. One disciple spoke in the Cretan language which Cretans understood, another disciple spoke an Arab language, which the surrounding Arabs understood, and so on.

Christ said "they will speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:17), plural. Not one singular divine language. In all of Paul's writings about tongues, he never refers to it as a singular tongue. He had plenty of opportunity to do so in three full chapters (I Cor. 12, 13, and 14) but not once does he say anything that implies there's only one single heavenly language.

Also, if that were the case I would hear all my fellow believers speaking in the same tongue as me when in our church prayer room or in a church service. But I don't. Some sound similar, others completely different. But I can't deny the presence of God when we're gathered together to pray. They're not pride-filled people trying to boast they speak in tongues. I look around and see people with a heart for God, who know they desperately need His guidance and direction daily. They couldn't care less who hears them pray.

As Tturt pointed out, it's too bad you've seen too many counterfeits and abuses of the real thing. Counterfeits never last. Gold dust revivals, laughing revivals, and all other manner of charismatic/holy ghost counterfeiting fades away. But the real baptism of the Holy Spirit is still going strong worldwide since it was first outpoured.
 
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DreamsAreFree

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Of course Moses didn't speak in tongues! This happened for the first time at Pentecost. Moses was under the law, the NT church was under grace. Very different situations.

It is not a given that when tongues are spoken in church that everyone will get the interpretation if they are not in disobedience.

There are three kinds of tongues. 1/ As at Pentecost - actual languages of those who would hear. 2/ The kind that is spoken at church and needs an interpretation. This is for the edification of the body. 3/ Personal prayer tongues - which Paul stated should be done privately, although there is not a problem praying in tongues as part of orderly prayer meetings. It was their use and abuse in a service that Paul criticised the Corinthians for. That abuse still goes on today.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Everyone speaks in tongues. Including unbelievers. Everyone has movements in their spirits that cannot be expressed with articulate language and everyone speaks forth from them. In the case of unbelievers, we would likely not want to know what they are saying. They are likely cursing and lying. Sometimes this speaking may be nothing more than a groan or a sigh. But it is tongues.
Jesus did not say "they will speak with tongues," He said they would speak in NEW tongues. The word "new" here means kind of language never heard before... something totally new... something distinct and original.
 
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Moriah_Conquering_Wind

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When you pray in tongues, it comes from your own spirit. It is you attempting to express to God that which your mind cannot adequately express in your known language. Sometimes it is nothing but growns and cries. Essentially there is NOTHING supernatural about this activity. Everyone has inexpressible spiritual movements and anyone can speak forth soundings from those movements. And yes, it is for all intents and perposes gibberish to our ears and the ears of those hearing it. The supernatural element of the prayer language exists completely and solely in God. He hears these soundings, and by His supernatural power and ability looks into your spirit, and finds the meaning there. But there is nothing supernatural or powerful in your speaking. It is merely you attempting to express that which your mind finds inexpressable. This is what Paul said:

1 Corinthians 14: KJV
(14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


This of course is different from the Spiritual Gift "diversities of tongues" which is the Holy Spirit enabled and is super natural. But mere praying in tongues is not supernatural in its delivery. It is just you bubbling up from your own sounds totally meaningless to anyone who might hear them. Only God knows your heart and the meaning of these soundings.

Romans 8:26
26 In the same way, the spirit (within us) is aiding our infirmities because we know not what we should pray for as required: but the same spirit (within us) spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered in articulate language

This furnishes a very useful explanation, Dids. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject.

In common parlance, this phenomenon gets called glossolalia. It has also been observed in occult rituals, trance workings, and the psychotic fugues of schizophrenics.

The babbling can sometimes be not just nonsense syllables but demonstrably atavistic in nature. Research on the sounds phonetically frequently turn up a string of concatenation of bits and pieces of existing languages -- Celtic, Sanskrit, Greek, Hebrew, whatever -- which, when translated, actually yields meaningful communication. When analyzed using appropriate gematria and known correspondences, further meaning can be derived. Some may have an intuitive sense for the comprehension of the root phonemes many languages have in common, and thus actually "hear" the meaning of the communication at the time it gets spoken, enabling them to "translate" loosely, but more often than not the transmission must be analysed with the appropriate tools and correspondences to yield coherent meaning and spiritual substance. A group of persons operating under the auspices that use of these tools would be evil and therefore prohibited, generally cannot benefit from this type of spiritual exercise.

And then again, human beings can babble pure nonsense and think themselves to be speaking another language, a "spirit" language, when in fact they have only deluded themselves. It happens. Seen it.
 
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DreamsAreFree

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Moriah and didaskalos make some interesting points. I think you make a lot of sense. HOWEVER, in terms of what the CHURCH teaches on speaking in tongues, I do not think they would agree .... the church teaches that tongues are the Holy Spirit GIVING us the utterances and sounds, not that they come from ourselves.

I'm not saying I disagree with you or agree - just that if I was to state what you have said in church, about the sounds coming from my OWN spirit, they would probably feel the need to correct me. Actually, yeah, they would. Why would you need to receive Holy Spirit baptism to speak in tongues if it was acknowledged it came from our own selves?
 
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tm2cruz

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There are tongues of men and of angels the Bible is pretty clear about that.
Neither has an edge in communicating with God they are just different. Tongues are called a sign for unbelievers in 1Corinthians 14:22.
1Corinthians 12 13 and 14 gives a pretty clear description of the sign and its proper use.

Tongues in scripture also relates to the vast number of dialects in the whole world. Revelation 7:9
There are usually many different dialects(tongues) within one nation as seen in Revelation 10:11.

Per 1 Cor 14:1-4 the prayer language is between you and God only. If the prayer language is exercised as a message to the body of believers present, then we must also pray that we give the interpretation.


Hey, thanks! I read the scriptures and now I understand ;)
 
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Prizm

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One other question, why do so many follow paul? ... Especially since we take alot of what we believe today from this one man.

The canonization of New Testament scripture went through a long process since the beginning. But right from the start, Paul's writings were carefully copied dozens of times and sent to various churches that were springing up when Christianity started. The church and those who were there right from the beginning accepted his teachings as accurate and based in Godly wisdom. Over the years as the New Testament began to take shape, Paul's writings were always foundational in the selection of books for canon.

A book in the New Testament was considered canon if the writings were either by an apostle or a disciple of an apostle; whether their writings were accepted in general by the church; and whether the writings were considered inspired by God and aligned with other writings considered as scripture.

Peter himself makes reference to Paul's writings and even calls them Scripture. He even admits that some of Paul's writings are difficult to understand, but explains that certain individuals who were not correctly taught the meaning, twist it to fit their clouded understanding. They didn't have revelation by the Holy Spirit of what Paul is trying to explain:

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation - as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." II Peter 3:15-16.
 
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