what tell us the Gospel about the death sentences

[Porque77]

Where does it say in your 4 book long Bible does it say Jesus said rulers should not kill? We need a direct quote, since you're so literal.

Jesus also commanded the rulers: "YOU NOT SHALL KILL" because this commandment is for all people. Jesus says so:

"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16-22)

 

[miamited]

Hi porque,

You asked:

Did God create governments to kill?

The Scriptures say that God created authorities and rulers upon the earth for the benefit of man. The Scriptures say that these authorities and rulers do not bear the sword for nothing.

Now, you are free to understand what the Scriptures say as you will. However, for your understanding of why I believe the 'what' and 'why' the Scriptures say these things, I have given my understanding. You are free to agree with me or not, but I would just encourage that whatever you believe, that it is in agreement with the 'whole counsel of God'.

You seem to have made the choice that you will disallow anything in the whole of the Scriptures except what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote about Jesus' visitation to us. That's fine, so long as you do understand that those four letters are not the sum total of all that the Scriptures tell us. It's likely for very good reason that the Holy Spirit has seen fit to cause man to keep the Scriptures bound up together as a complete work as we find in our bibles.

Jesus' visitation to us was to give us testimony of who God is. He taught us what God expects of us as individuals in serving and honoring God. However, the rest of the Scriptures contain a bit more about how governments were founded and what their purpose is to be, according to God, as authorities placed over us as individuals.

You are free to understand all of this as you see fit, but you cannot deny that the Scriptures tell us that it is not for nothing that the authorities over us bear the sword. Jesus also told Pilate that he had no authority over him other than what his Father had given him. Apparently, God gave Pilate the authority to sentence Jesus to death, because he did and according to Jesus the only authority that Pilate had over him was what God had given him.

Read that as you like and understand that as you may, but I'm firmly convicted that God is not displeased that governments act in righteousness in pronouncing and carrying out sentences of death for certain wicked acts of men. You likely don't agree with me, and that's ok. I'm not here to be in agreement with everyone except and so far as what is agreed upon also agrees with the words and commands of my Father.

If you want to carry on a ministry to end the death sentence among governments you are free to do so. I'm just not in agreement that such a ministry is in keeping with God's word. However, having said that, no, not all governments carry out their responsibility in this in the way of God's righteous decrees. But I am willing to allow God to be the final judge and arbiter of such actions. My individual and personal goal as to my living a life on this earth under the authority of an earthly government is to respect those in authority over me. That's what the Scriptures instruct me individually and personally to do.

I can't make someone else believe as I believe. I can't make someone else teach as I teach. I can only instruct as I believe in what the Scriptures say and I must leave each other individual's understanding up to their own conscience. I cannot make a woman stop from getting an abortion. I can tell her what I believe the Scriptures say about the sanctity of life and the lot of those who would take life, but ultimately if the woman chooses to have the abortion, then she has it. But guess what? Jesus died for that sin also if she later comes to repentance and faith in the Lord. It may be 15 years on down the road and the blood of Jesus will still cover her sin.

If a man is put to death for his crime and it wasn't just, then God will judge those responsible. But guess what? If one of the people involved in the issue is a born again child of the one true and living God, Jesus died for that sin, too.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Sophrosyne]

This can be summed up pretty easily... if Jesus meant us to "not kill" he wouldn't have told his followers to buy swords instead he would have told them to buy clubs or a bludgeoning instruments as swords are primarily designed to kill people and Jesus' followers had them. Also it is not "loving" to let a wild beast run around and kill people at times in the history of the Bible people have killed them like Lion's etc. People can devolve in morality to that of a wild beast such that at times the only way to deal with them is to kill them. Christians aren't commanded to kill, nor are they commanded not to kill either bur rather not murder people. Jesus himself spoke to a centurion who asked him to heal his servant and Jesus didn't tell him to quit his job because he wasn't supposed to kill instead he said nothing about the man's occupation and healed his servant because the centurion believed Jesus could do it with just a word or command. When someone cut the ear off a soldier when they came for Jesus, he didn't scold him for trying to kill the guy he healed the man instead.

 

[mikedsjr]

Have you stolen? Have you loved your neighbor as yourself? Have you sold all your stuff and given that to the poor? Completely?


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[Sophrosyne]

Have you stolen? Have you loved your neighbor as yourself? Have you sold all your stuff and given that to the poor? Completely?


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yes, yes and no, no... I fall way short luckily for me I'm saved by the Grace of God and not my own merits.

 

[Porque77]

yes, yes and no, no... I fall way short luckily for me I'm saved by the Grace of God and not my own merits.

.... because this commandment is for all people. Jesus says so:

" sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16-22)

 

[Sophrosyne]

.... because this commandment is for all people. Jesus says so:

" sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16-22)

Not necessarily a commandment for all people as Jesus himself told people he was sent to the Jews and told the 12 who followed him not to go to the Gentiles if you truly know your Bible well you would know that. It is quite probably Jesus was asking the man to follow him as he existed as a man at the time helping him spread the Gospel with his entourage. Now that Jesus isn't walking the earth as a man we have to look at the words of those apostles whom were told to take up where he was left off and their audience was varied with Paul being the main apostle to gentiles he never tells people to sell everything and follow Jesus he instead tells people that some are meant to do different jobs from teacher to preacher etc and these jobs don't require one to sell everything at all. Have you taken this commandment to heart yet? Unless you are on a borrowed computer or cell phone you haven't yet.....

 

[Porque77]

Not necessarily a commandment for all people as Jesus himself told people he was sent to the Jews and told the 12 who followed him not to go to the Gentiles if you truly know your Bible well you would know that.

Jesus Christ and the apostles preached to the Jews for some time ... But in other time, they preached to all people of the world ... I remember the words of Jesus:

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned". (Mark 16:15-16)

"And this gospel of the kingdom in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24.11 to 14).

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always days until the end of the world. Amen. "(Matthew 28:19-20).

 

[Porque77]

.... because this commandment is for all people. Jesus says so:

" sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matth 19:16-22)

.......with Paul being the main apostle to gentiles he never tells people to sell everything and follow Jesus.....

The letters attributed to Paul do not contain the full Gospel. And Paul's letters can not override the Gospel.

Jesus commanded to preach the Gospel for all the peoples of the world. And the apostles and early Christians preached by all known peoples.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ must be preached by all peoples until the end of the world, because that is what Jesus Christ commanded to preach.

Paul, like all early Christians, they never wanted to cancel the gospel of Jesus Christ ... And in the first centuries Christians only preached the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But what has happened in the last few centuries? ... In these centuries have been many religions who wanted to cancel the gospel of Jesus Christ to preach different "gospels".

But Paul never preached different "another gospel" because Paul preached the gospel of Jesus Christ:

" I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed". (Galatians 1: 6-9).

 

[Porque77]

Porque77 said: ↑
Did God create governments to kill?

Hi porque,......
The Scriptures say that God created authorities and rulers upon the earth for the benefit of man. The Scriptures say that these authorities and rulers do not bear the sword for nothing.

You insist much that people should apply death sentences, but Jesus Christ did not commanded men to impose death sentences ..., nor commanded Christians to be placed under the orders of the dictators who use the sword to kill .

You mix the laws of the Old Testament with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the two laws are different, because the laws of the Old Testament command "death sentences", wars and genocides ... but the Gospel commands men "NO KILL", forgive seventy times seven, and have mercy with all.

Jesus Christ did not commanded to preach the death's laws of the Old Testament, because what Jesus Christ commanded preach all people, was the gospel He preached to the apostles and early Christians.

The Judaizers and many who want to pass by "Christians" or "evangelicals", seek in the laws of the Old Testament and in the letters attributed to Paul, difficult points contrary to what commands Jesus Christ, and so preach a gospel contrary to Gospel Jesus Christ.

We, the Christians who know the Gospel, we know that Jesus Christ commanded to preach the Gospel to all peoples of the world. And the gospel commands mercy and forgiveness for all, and the Gospel abolished the death penalty and wars that were imposed by the laws of the Old Testament.

 

[miamited]

Hi porque,

No, I don't think I've said anything about the old covenant. That was between God and the descendants of Abraham only. My only reference has been to what is written in the new covenant. Listen, you're free to believe what you will, but it doesn't have anything to do with the old covenant.

I briefly glanced over my previous posts and my only mention of the old covenant was that God said that the community should participate in the administration of justice just as the community participates in the administration of justice today. However, as far as the foundation of my understanding that governments do have the authority given by my Father to administer such justice all comes from new covenant evidence.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Widlast]

There are crimes that are worthy of death. There are people who commit crimes worthy of death.
If nobody has the right or authority to deal with these people then what?

A popular author once wrote in one of his novels of a judge and those convicted of the crime, the judge said:
"We do not condemn you to death for what you have done, we condemn you to death because you are the sort of people who commit these crimes."

That is the crux of the issue. What do you do with people who commit horrendous crimes?
Forgive them and let them go so they may commit the same crimes again?
Lock them up for the entirety of their lives so they are a financial burden to those who have committed no crimes?

In the past, people knew how to deal with evil, not so much now.

 

[Widlast]

Years ago I had a friend who was taking criminal justice classes. She had the same liberal/progressive let's feel sorry for the criminals attitude that you have. Then she had a class trip to the local penitentiary and got to see the caged animals first hand.
She was a firm and vocal proponent of the death penalty after that. Nothing cures a soft heart like experiencing the charm of hardened criminals up close and personal.

 

[miamited]

Hi again porque,

BTW the words that Jesus spoke to the rich young man were the words of the ten commandments of the old covenant. God has always told individuals that it is His desire that we not kill one another, but while that law was in effect, God made provision, during the time shortly after He gave the people the ten commandment law that the people, as a community, had a duty, it was just as much a command as the ten commandment laws, to administer the death penalty under certain conditions as a community.

A person was to be judged by the testimony of two or more witnesses and if found guilty of certain crimes that person, God commanded, was to be put to death. All of this just very, very shortly after God gave unto the Israelites the command to not kill or murder, which ever word you'd like to use there, that Jesus spoke of. Jesus told the rich young man to keep the commandments and he was referring to and actually enumerated the ten commandment law that was given unto Israel in the desert. So, either the Scriptures are not telling us the truth that God Himself handed down ALL of these laws and decrees that while He said on the one hand 'thou shalt not murder', or God is a liar, or God does reserve and authorize death for certain offenses to be adjudicated by the community. Which is it?

So, all this talk about Jesus saying not to kill means that certain crimes should not be punishable by death in the new covenant, if true, would mean that God has not been just by giving the exact same law that Jesus spoke of and yet actually commanding that men put certain people to death in the old covenant. You seem to have this idea that Jesus gave us some new law regarding this, but that's not the case. Jesus merely spoke the words of the ten commandment law given to Israel in the desert. It wasn't some new law and yet, even after God gave that law, the very one that Jesus repeated, God commanded the death penalty for certain offenses to be administered by the community. Jesus repeating the ten commandments to the rich young man didn't change anything as regards punishments handed down to people for certain crimes. If it did, then God commanded men to break the law. I really don't think I'm willing to go there.

God has not changed in allowing and actually giving authority to governments to bear the sword and to wield that sword when necessary. Our hope is that the government under which we live, uses this authority wisely and justly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Job8]

The Gospel tells us: 'Thou shalt not kill,' and also, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her' (John 8:1-11). With these teachings, Jesus Christ took away all authority to every man to kill the men.

These teachings are directed to individuals, not the state. God allows the state (governments) to use capital punishment for heinous crimes. The sword of that time would be equivalent to hanging, the electric chair, or lethal injection.

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 

[Lance & Rite]

The New Testament is just the Old Testament with different rituals and pork.

 

[samir]

I'm not sure when it happened (probably in part through Hollywood), but Americans frequently have more sympathy for someone who commits a crime and less sympathy for the victim. It depends on how the crime is presented (or spun). Thought experiment: Don't ask "what is the right punishment for this crime," but rather "what punishment has this man earned for himself."

Perhaps it's due to a combination of Christian values and modern science. Suppose 3 people kill their neighbor but for different reasons, do they all deserve the same punishment or should we look at what each person deserves? Consider the following examples:

Person 1 - Killed his neighbor because a hit man offered money that he wanted to by a more luxurious car
Person 2 - Killed his neighbor during an argument. He had trouble controlling his anger and impulses due to brain damage he received in a car accident
Person 3 - Killed his neighbor because he was hallucinating (due to a medical condition) and thought he was acting in self-defense

In the past, many medical conditions and impairments were not known so they may have all been treated equally and executed but now that we know there are sometimes circumstances beyond the person's control or things that influence behavior such that these crimes are committed with less than full consent of the will should we not adjust their sentence based on these factors? Is it wrong to feel sympathy when a war veteran who suffered brain injury in jailed for a crime he likely would not have committed had he not been injured?

Do all 3 people mentioned above deserve "the right punishment for this crime" or should each person be given punishment he earned for himself?

 

[Greg J.]

My thought experiment is for those that are having difficulty seeing a basis for determining "right punishments." Our reasoning should result in the "right punishment" for a crime being the same as the "punishment he earned for himself" (which is the point of suggesting another way to think about the issues).

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Person 1 - Killed his neighbor because a hit man offered money that he wanted to by a more luxurious car
Person 2 - Killed his neighbor during an argument. He had trouble controlling his anger and impulses due to brain damage he received in a car accident
Person 3 - Killed his neighbor because he was hallucinating (due to a medical condition) and thought he was acting in self-defense

It's the action (murder) which earns the punishment, not why one murdered. We are to determine guilt or innocence, not play psychologist. Once the courts started placing the blame for murder on the perpetrator's mother not breastfeeding him, they derailed the justice system. First degree murder, and many other crimes, are to be treated with a noose, not a seven-year sentence and an associates degree.

 

[samir]

It's the action (murder) which earns the punishment, not why one murdered. We are to determine guilt or innocence, not play psychologist. Once the courts started placing the blame for murder on the perpetrator's mother not breastfeeding him, they derailed the justice system. First degree murder, and many other crimes, are to be treated with a noose, not a seven-year sentence and an associates degree.

Does God treat people that way? Do you think God will punish the person who killed his neighbor in what he thought was self-defense just as harshly as the cold-blooded killer? Do you really think a young child who finds a gun and accidentally kills his best friend should be executed?