What Really Happened that First Christmas?

[JimB]

How much do we really know about the biblical account of Christ’s birth that has not been mixed with Christian tradition? For example, take the Three Wise Men who visited the manger of Jesus. Here are some of the nonfactual legends that have grown up around them:

§ They were not kings.
§ They were not “Wise Men”; they were Magi, pagan astrologer, stargazers and monthly prognosticators, soothsayers, magicians (for whence the word ‘magi&#8217.
§ There were not three men. There were three or three kinds of gifts, but the Bible does not say how many men.
§ The Bible does did not say they arrived at Jesus’ birthplace in Bethlehem but months (up to two years) later, most likely at Joseph and Mary’s “house” in Nazareth.
§ There were no camels.
​

I love the traditional view of the Three Wise Men with their camels and gifts and all, but the Bible gives us a different picture of what happened on that first Christmas.

What other Christmas legends can you think of that have grown up around the biblical account of Christ’s birth that have become part of Christian tradition but which are just not biblical?

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

 

[Optimax]

How much do we really know about the biblical account of Christ’s birth that has not been mixed with Christian tradition? For example, take the Three Wise Men who visited the manger of Jesus. Here are some of the nonfactual legends that have grown up around them:

§ They were not kings.
§ They were not “Wise Men”; they were Magi, pagan astrologer, stargazers and monthly prognosticators, soothsayers, magicians (for whence the word ‘magi’).
§ There were not three men. There were three or three kinds of gifts, but the Bible does not say how many men.
§ The Bible does did not say they arrived at Jesus’ birthplace in Bethlehem but months (up to two years) later, most likely at Joseph and Mary’s “house” in Nazareth.
§ There were no camels.
​

I love the traditional view of the Three Wise Men with their camels and gifts and all, but the Bible gives us a different picture of what happened on that first Christmas.

What other Christmas legends can you think of that have grown up around the biblical account of Christ’s birth that have become part of Christian tradition but which are just not biblical?

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

Wow!!

Did you just blow away the nativity scene or what.

I know, appreciate and enjoy Chris P. Bacon often.

 

[Alpine]

For me it would be the view that Jesus was born on December 25th. We simply don't know for sure when He was born, though we can give a good guess, and December certainly doesn't fit the best guesses.

 

[visionary]

For me it would be the view that Jesus was born on December 25th. We simply don't know for sure when He was born, though we can give a good guess, and December certainly doesn't fit the best guesses.

Good presentation of scripture study on the subject.

 

[JimB]

For me it would be the view that Jesus was born on December 25th. We simply don't know for sure when He was born, though we can give a good guess, and December certainly doesn't fit the best guesses.

Excellent. Here's what I found ...

From what I gather, December 25 was chosen as the date of Christ’s birth by the Church in order to take some steam out of the pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia, commemorating the sun god. Apparently, it worked.

The Bible itself would indicate that December 25 was an unlikely date for Christ’s birth. Palestine is very cold in December. It was much too cold to ask everyone to travel to the city of their fathers to register for taxes. Also the shepherds were in the fields. Shepherds were not in the fields in the winter time, especially at night. They are in the fields early in March until early October. This would place Jesus' birth in the spring or early fall. It is also generally believed (based on Luke 3.23) that Jesus lived for 33.5 years and died at the feast of the Passover, which is at Easter time. He must therefore have been born six months the other side of Easter or around September or October time frames.

Another interesting fact comes from Elizabeth herself. She hid herself for 5 months and then the Angel Gabriel announced to Mary both Elizabeth's condition and that Mary would also bear a son who would be called Jesus. Mary went "with haste" to visit Elizabeth, who was then in the first week of her 6th month, or the 4th week of December. If Jesus was born 280 days later it would place his birth in late September.

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

 

[Alpine]

If Jesus was born 280 days later it would place his birth in late September.

Good presentation of scripture study on the subject.

That's also my view. Sometime in the fall.

 

[Optimax]

September would be my choice as well.

September is also believed by many to be the possible season for other "big" future events, such as Rapture.

Not necessarily the next Sept.

 

[cyberlizard]

september is indeed a good choice of months. it is more than likely that he was born on the first day of succot (for reasons i will not bother explaining), needless to say the verse 'and he 'tabernacled' amongst us' is a good clue to it all....


Steve

p.s. the feast of succot in the confines of the second coming represents the messianic age, not the olam haba.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

september is indeed a good choice of months. it is more than likely that he was born on the first day of succot (for reasons i will not bother explaining), needless to say the verse 'and he 'tabernacled' amongst us' is a good clue to it all....


Steve

p.s. the feast of succot in the confines of the second coming represents the messianic age, not the olam haba.

Succot is also known as the Feast of Booths or Tabernacles.

I think this blows away the idea that Yeshua was born in a barn with a bunch if farm animals in attendance.

 

[Yekcidmij]

For me it would be the view that Jesus was born on December 25th. We simply don't know for sure when He was born, though we can give a good guess, and December certainly doesn't fit the best guesses.

I think we can get a fairly accurate month. In Luke 1:26 it says the angel came to Mary in the 6th month. So just look at the Jewish calendar, find the 6th month and then add 9 months to it and wa la! Or if you think Luke is on the Roman calendar, look at it, find the 6th month, add 9 months and bingo! Check those against Jimbeaux's point about the shepherds and you have a solid result.

Pretty easy. Btw, I haven't worked out the exact months yet, so I'm not sure what it comes out to.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I think we can get a fairly accurate month. In Luke 1:26 it says the angel came to Mary in the 6th month. So just look at the Jewish calendar, find the 6th month and then add 9 months to it and wa la! Or if you think Luke is on the Roman calendar, look at it, find the 6th month, add 9 months and bingo! Check those against Jimbeaux's point about the shepherds and you have a solid result.

Pretty easy. Btw, I haven't worked out the exact months yet, so I'm not sure what it comes out to.

So, I think I worked it out (feel free to check me too in case I missed something).

For the Jewish calendar:

6th month = Elul
9 months later = Nissan (if the angel came at the beginning of Elul) or Iyar (if angel came at end of Elul)


For the Roman calendar (Julian one specifically):
6th month = Iunius (June)
9 months later = Feb or March (depending on when in June the angel came)


Jimbeaux points out sheep are in the fields Mar-Oct. So both the Roman and Jewish calendar birth months fall in there. Guess it depends on who you think Theophilus is. If Luke is writing to a Jew, chances are he's using a Jewish calendar, but if he's writing to Roman or Greek, he may be using the Roman calendar.

In any case, the timeframe is March - April (Passover interestingly falls in here)

 

[New_Wineskin]

What Really Happened that First Christmas?
How much do we really know about the biblical account of Christ’s birth that has not been mixed with Christian tradition? For example, take the Three Wise Men who visited the manger of Jesus. Here are some of the nonfactual legends that have grown up around them:

§ They were not kings.
§ They were not “Wise Men”; they were Magi, pagan astrologer, stargazers and monthly prognosticators, soothsayers, magicians (for whence the word ‘magi&#8217.
§ There were not three men. There were three or three kinds of gifts, but the Bible does not say how many men.
§ The Bible does did not say they arrived at Jesus’ birthplace in Bethlehem but months (up to two years) later, most likely at Joseph and Mary’s “house” in Nazareth.
§ There were no camels.
​

I love the traditional view of the Three Wise Men with their camels and gifts and all, but the Bible gives us a different picture of what happened on that first Christmas.

What other Christmas legends can you think of that have grown up around the biblical account of Christ’s birth that have become part of Christian tradition but which are just not biblical?

I would not doubt that there is quite a bit . Who knows how much of the Scriptures have "disappeared" in successive copies because the controlling heirarchy considered them threats to their teachings ? Not having the originals in hand makes it impossible to know .

great thread .

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Here's some thoughts on the subject from the Messianic forum

 

[Henaynei]

The G-d of the Universe is not arbitrary, neither did He set His calendar (see the Books of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy - or any Jewish calendar) up arbitrarily... He set times, festivals and seasons as bookmarks and indicators and messages for all time.... He did not come to the earth "sometime..." on His calendar but in specific keeping with the times, festivals and seasons He had set and in keeping with the events that would transpire in His life.....

of note: scripture has some very harsh things to say about changing the times and festivals in His Word....

based on when Zachariah was at the Temple doing his required service (this is easily determined by the courses that were set for each levitical family in the rotation of yearly service in the Temple, rotation that had been set long ago and continued until the Romans destroyed the Temple) it can be determined when Elizabeth was pregnant, when her 6th month was and thus when Yeshua was born.... during Sukkot.

BTW - Sukkot is one of the commanded pilgrim festivals and all of Israel was commanded to come up to Jerusalem and the Temple for that feast, the area would be extremely crowded and overflowing with the pilgrims..... Beit Lechem is not far from Jerusalem and is a logical place for overflow accommodations for the pilgrims - and as such, because of the over flow and because of the commandment concerning Sukkot/Feast of Tabernacles, folks were setting up Sukkot or Booths all over the place..... Yeshua was born in one such booth - a simple rough temporary affair that is meant to signify many things including G-d's provision and deliverance of His people from bondage and the very temporary existence of each of our lives ...... Yeshua came to do the first again (and much more profoundly) and to remedy the second....

Blessed be the Name of the L-rd.
As for me and my house we will serve the L-rd and we remember Yeshua's first coming during our celebration of Sukkot.....

p.s. maybe this is why this is the one festival that the prophesies in the scripture state that all peoples will keep in the Millennial Reign of Messiah.....

 

[nephilimiyr]

september is indeed a good choice of months. it is more than likely that he was born on the first day of succot (for reasons i will not bother explaining), needless to say the verse 'and he 'tabernacled' amongst us' is a good clue to it all....


Steve

p.s. the feast of succot in the confines of the second coming represents the messianic age, not the olam haba.

I read something years ago that proved to me that Jesus was born at or around the time of the feast of succot.

As for of the other traditional things christians believe about Jesus' birth but aren't true. It just goes to show how people will read things into the scriptures what isn't there.

 

[Svt4Him]

Other issues:

The inn keeper said there was no room at the inn
Jesus was born in a manger
Mary rode on a donkey during their travels


As for the 25th, I also agree with the change:

True - The original significance of 25th December is that it was a well-known festival day celebrating the
annual return of the sun. 21st December is the winter solstice (shortest day of the year and thus a key date
on the calendar), but 25th December is the first day that ancients could clearly note that the days were
definitely getting longer and the sunlight was returning. On this day the Romans worshipped the
‘Unconquered Sun’ or Sun god.
The date for Christmas was chosen by the Roman Catholic Church. Because Rome dominated most of the
"Christian" world for centuries, the date became tradition throughout most of Christendom.
So, why was 25th December chosen to remember Jesus Christ's birth? Since no one knows the day of his
birth, the Roman Catholic Church felt free to choose this date. The Church wished to replace the pagan
festival with a Christian holiday. The psychology was that is easier to take away an unholy (but traditional)
festival from the population, when you can replace it with a good one.

 

[hislegacy]

Wowsers Jimbeaux, I knew you were old, but not THAT old!

 

[Yekcidmij]

So, I think I worked it out (feel free to check me too in case I missed something).

For the Jewish calendar:

6th month = Elul
9 months later = Nissan (if the angel came at the beginning of Elul) or Iyar (if angel came at end of Elul)


For the Roman calendar (Julian one specifically):
6th month = Iunius (June)
9 months later = Feb or March (depending on when in June the angel came)


Jimbeaux points out sheep are in the fields Mar-Oct. So both the Roman and Jewish calendar birth months fall in there. Guess it depends on who you think Theophilus is. If Luke is writing to a Jew, chances are he's using a Jewish calendar, but if he's writing to Roman or Greek, he may be using the Roman calendar.

In any case, the timeframe is March - April (Passover interestingly falls in here)

AHHHHHH MAN!! Scratch all that.


the "6th month" in Luke 1:26 is the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, not the 6th month of the year. Can't believe I missed that.

 

[Alpine]

AHHHHHH MAN!! Scratch all that.


the "6th month" in Luke 1:26 is the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, not the 6th month of the year. Can't believe I missed that.

He he

 

[rushingwind62]

Does it really matter who was present at Christ's birth? Does it really matter when He was born as long as we set aside a time to celebrate the gift God gave us? IMO all that matters is this:

The Gift


One day God was sitting on His throne,
looking upon the earth from Heaven Above.
He said, "Something is missing, but I know what it is,
it needs a bundle of joy, hope, and love."
So He called out to His beloved Son,
"Jesus, come! Your Father has need of you!"
From the far side of Heaven Jesus came running,
for of His Father plans He already knew.
His Father said, "Son, the time has come,
go to my people and do not return until your job is through."
Tears rolled down the cheeks of the Father,
as He said, "Go! I must wait here for you."
A gift was given that day from Heaven to earth,
the love of a Father, the life of a Son.
Upon the cross He was crucified,
but the Father's love remained when all was done.
No greater gift can we give or share,
than the gift of His love and story.
God loves you and so do I,
and I pray you will be touched by His glory.


All that really matters is the reason for the season

MERRY
CHRISTMAS
EVERYONE!!!
​