What kind of things would get you disfellowshipped at your church?

[LovebirdsFlying]

Let me first explain my reason for posting here. I, myself, am not denomination specific, but for the past seven years I have been a member of a Southern Baptist church. Frankly I don't like it much, but doctrine is not the issue. I mostly agree with the doctrine, the differences being mostly about things on which it pretty much doesn't matter who's right. I have never spotted any Biblical error being preached from the pulpit, that I know of, although I have known the pastor on occasion to accidentally cite an urban legend as if it were true. I don't see that as a big deal either. A lot of people make those mistakes. That's how they get to be urban legends.

The reason I don't like the church much involves some members of the congregation, not the doctrine.

And this issue is pretty big. If true, it just might reflect on the church itself, not the individual, since the person who has my hackles up was speaking in an official capacity.

A couple in their late teens is engaged, but not yet married. Their projected wedding date is at least a year away, probably longer. They wisely want to make sure all of their ducks are in a row first. It somehow became known that they slipped up once, if you know what I mean, but they recognize that they did wrong and don't plan to repeat their mistake. The youth pastor has, according to the young lady involved, told her that if she had become pregnant, she would have been "thrown out of the church," were the words I heard.

The question of whether this also applies to the young man involved is almost secondary to the question of whether this should happen at all! I am in no way condoning sin. I well recognize that when our brothers and sisters err, we are obligated to point it out to them. But to disfellowship a young woman who is a fairly new convert and has been baptized only a few months ago, for making one mistake? With or without disfellowshipping him as well, since she didn't make that mistake by herself? Would Jesus Christ work like that?

What say you?

 

[Awaken4Christ]

Point 1: Where in the Bible does it say a particular ceremony or tradition determines marital status?Are we going to cloud our judgement with the traditions of man? Ask yourself if marriage is more than a tradition or ceremony.

Point 2: Why would it make a difference if the girl was pregnant? So its more of a sin if she was pregnant? Do these church rules hate babies or something? Do they think the church would save face if she wasn't pregnant? I don't understand what the logic is behind this.

Point 3: Those who would kick out a member for stumbling (assuming this isn't a continuous deal) The church should really read Romans 7:14-25

"14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me."

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.


Now this isn't an excuse to go all willy nilly with sin. But these passages should help in determining what state of mind really merits to get kicked out of a church.

 

[jermgray1]

I don't believe in non-legal marriage like the poster above me. But nobody should kick someone out of church for something like that. I suggest you just be a light to that couple and encourage them. And if someone does kick them out for that I say you follow them out the door if you know what I mean. Don't think though that this would happen in every SB church.

 

[98cwitr]

1 Cor 5 examines this topic directly. To the youth minister's point, they would kick them out for having premarital sex resulting in an "unclean" child. Paul in his next letter does tell the church to allow the person back in after forgiving them (2 Cor 2).

 

[USCGrad90]

In our church, our bylaws encourage reconciliation rather than punishment as a guidleine for dealing with issues and that any problems or conflict should be addressed and resolved in accordance with Matthew 18:15-35 and II Corinthians 2:1-11.

The man and woman should be treated the same in regard to the issue, but the fact that they acknowledged their sin and have shown remorse, would lead me to believe that the Church should respond as noted in the second passage and reaffirm their love and support for the couple.

It sounds like the Youth Minister is more concerned about how it might look if he had a unwed mother in the group rather than trying to guide the young couple toward their wedding day.

 

[walkinginthelightnow]

The bible sys.."them that sin rebuke before all so others will fear also."

We hardly do that these days...thats why there is so much casual, licentious living in many churches.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

To the most recent post, they were properly rebuked. It's the threat of disfellowship I'm wondering about.

The young lady in question is also a foster child, has just turned 18 (can remain in the system until she is 21, and then they'll help her find an apartment until she is 24) and is working on her GED. Staying in school was next to impossible with her chaotic life, but she now has a job. The youth pastor told her that since she is not in school, she cannot be in the youth class.

So much judgment, rather than love and compassion.

I'm involved because her father was once engaged to my daughter, and he is also the father of my grandchildren. That relationship ended because he is a very abusive man, and that's when the children went into foster care. My biological grandchildren, very small at the time, were adopted out. This young lady was 12 at the time, 18 now, and still calls us Grandma and Grandpa. Her father is nowhere in the picture, but we consider her a member of our family. It would be the same for her other siblings, if they lived nearby, but she's the oldest and the only one that didn't end up adopted somewhere. That's sad, but it seems everyone wants little kids, not adolescents. We would have taken her in ourselves, as well as my bio grandchildren, but I have a troubled past. Because my own children were in foster care, they wouldn't approve us. It doesn't matter that my circumstances have changed dramatically since then. They didn't approve us because of my circumstances 15 to 30 years ago.

I was a teenage unwed mother myself. Not that I'm recommending or condoning it. I wish I had waited. At least she's marrying a decent guy, though. I was so blinded by love and so fearful of ending up alone, that I married a drug addict. I felt it was the right thing to do, since he was the father of the baby. We had two more children, but we haven't been together since the 1980's, and everything is different now that I'm married to Mike. Unlike the government, Jesus Christ forgives the past.

I would very much like to see my daughters and my honorary granddaughter not go down the same path I did. Of course, I'm here to guide them. But not to judge them. That isn't my job.

 

[preacher4truth]

The reason I don't like the church much involves some members of the congregation, not the doctrine.

I'd begin here and not with the issues of others.

 

[RandyWindborne]

To the most recent post, they were properly rebuked. It's the threat of disfellowship I'm wondering about.

The young lady in question is also a foster child, has just turned 18 (can remain in the system until she is 21, and then they'll help her find an apartment until she is 24) and is working on her GED. Staying in school was next to impossible with her chaotic life, but she now has a job. The youth pastor told her that since she is not in school, she cannot be in the youth class.

So much judgment, rather than love and compassion.

I'm involved because her father was once engaged to my daughter, and he is also the father of my grandchildren. That relationship ended because he is a very abusive man, and that's when the children went into foster care. My biological grandchildren, very small at the time, were adopted out. This young lady was 12 at the time, 18 now, and still calls us Grandma and Grandpa. Her father is nowhere in the picture, but we consider her a member of our family. It would be the same for her other siblings, if they lived nearby, but she's the oldest and the only one that didn't end up adopted somewhere. That's sad, but it seems everyone wants little kids, not adolescents. We would have taken her in ourselves, as well as my bio grandchildren, but I have a troubled past. Because my own children were in foster care, they wouldn't approve us. It doesn't matter that my circumstances have changed dramatically since then. They didn't approve us because of my circumstances 15 to 30 years ago.

I was a teenage unwed mother myself. Not that I'm recommending or condoning it. I wish I had waited. At least she's marrying a decent guy, though. I was so blinded by love and so fearful of ended up alone, that I married a drug addict. I felt it was the right thing to do, since he was the father of the baby. We had two more children, but we haven't been together since the 1980's, and everything is different now that I'm married to Mike. Unlike the government, Jesus Christ forgives the past.

I would very much like to see my daughters and my honorary granddaughter not go down the same path I did. Of course, I'm here to guide them. But not to judge them. That isn't my job.

You would think Southern Baptists (and I was raised as such) would at least be familiar with Jesus' teaching on the subject of excommunication in Matthew 18.

I'm not much for rules, myself. Since the U.S. government has decided to license gay and lesbian marriages (and this I realize is a side-issue, not an attempt to hijack the discussion), I don't see why church fellowships are still participating in government-sanctioned marriages at all.

But that's just me.

 

[ananda]

Agreed with RandyWindborne, churches should have nothing to do with government marriages. If the two are each others' first, they are essentially already married, according to Scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

Agreed with RandyWindborne, churches should have nothing to do with government marriages. If the two are each others' first, they are essentially already married, according to Scripture.

Excellent! Can you provide ('according to Scripture') for this?

 

[ananda]

Excellent! Can you provide ('according to Scripture') for this?

Deu 22:28-29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

 

[98cwitr]

Deu 22:28-29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

How are they essentially married when they lay together though? Sounds like dude needs to pay up!

 

[preacher4truth]

Deu 22:28-29 "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

So the subject of the OP falls under all these requirements?

Where are they 'essentially married' under your given Scripture reference?

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

The subject of the OP has no father in her life to pay the 50 shekels to.

Gentle reminder (not a Mod Hat but just speaking as the OP), the topic is disfellowshipping for sin, not what constitutes marriage. I don't mind having the second discussed, but please don't forget the first.

 

[ananda]

So the subject of the OP falls under all these requirements?

Where are they 'essentially married' under your given Scripture reference?

"she shall be his wife"

IMO if they're engaged, they're betrothed, and pretty much married, so there's no sin involved

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'd begin here and not with the issues of others.

Could you please elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[preacher4truth]

"she shall be his wife"

IMO if they're engaged, they're betrothed, and pretty much married, so there's no sin involved

You've failed to show wherein the subject of the OP is 'essentially married' under your provided text, in addition is your failure in showing where the subject has met all the requirements of the text given.

Nice try but the truth is you cannot show these things.

Do you have another text?

 

[preacher4truth]

Could you please elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean.

No need to elaborate. I quoted your feelings for others within your church which you have expressed. I'd begin with your feelings there and forget about your problems with others. Your problems with others are the first issue.

 

[ananda]

You've failed to show wherein the subject of the OP is 'essentially married' under your provided text, in addition is your failure in showing where the subject has met all the requirements of the text given.

Nice try but the truth is you cannot show these things.

Do you have another text?

They laid together and had sexual relations, and, as I said, if she was a virgin, then to me, they have satisfied this text, and "shall be married".